New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510

[hwj-d]

What I was intending to say was that we found most users do not have a direct need for the full report from the standpoint of making any use of that data (actual adjustments & uncertainties) for particular units.

Ok, this discussion is illogical and futile and completely customer-unfriendly.

Most people can look at our specifications and that is enough for them to understand the actual accuracy. Any application that requires knowing accuracy/uncertainties better than the published specs is unusual.

Honestly, I have found that most people who buy 6.5 Digit DMMs  DO NOT need 6.5 digits for their typical application. Yes its nice to have, but you pay for it.

Um, I have concerns measuring LTZ1000 using LM399 instrument. Whatever drift you see, I dont think you can decide which reference has actually moved unless you have access to another lower drift reference to check it against. We don't publish the long term drift data for the 6500 directly - its only reflected in the 24 hour / 90 day /1 year / 2 year specs and even that has additional margin built into it.

Of course I understand. Besides the certification protocol problem, for which they don't want to show any insight, I tried what else can be done with your wonderful device. This was not a justification for anything outside the specification.

You know, we're not talking to you here in the sales room, you're here in the users' forum. And we're talking about what else you can do with this DMM. We know ourselves what is wrong or unusual outside of the specification, and we teach each other accordingly.

The forum serves to explain what is feasible and what is not, and is based on the qualified experience of the forum participants. In this sense, the implementation of your sales strategy is of secondary importance. So take part in the forum synergies, or leave it alone. On the other hand, you have to listen to the criticism of the missing certificate. For me, your justification is self-referential and not very acceptable.

[Neuromodulator]

The thermistors that they use are specified in the datasheet I believe. If you go to the thermistor manufacturer you can find/derive the parameters. Some time ago I programmed a simple script to compute temperature of custom thermistors through the Steinhart-Hart equation. https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/tree/master/Application_Specific/Custom_Thermistor

[E-Design]

It was found that most users / customers did not have any use for the full data report so that practice stopped in order to save processing time / cost. However, some people would still like the full report so it is available as a paid service and ordering option.

Sorry, but this "trust us" argument just doesn't cut it. After nagging support i got the cal reports for my DMM7510 and DAQ6510 respectively. Keysight gives you the factory cal report in an enclosed letter, no fuss. Who, in their right mind, would not want to have the "starting point", e.g. the initial factory calibration, of a meter with 6.5 digits or better resolution? Are customers using it as a interior decoration because of the nice colour screen, or somesuch? Most probable it's marketing dept BS made up to create the illusion of meeting customer expectations, while the real motive is increasing profit (saving a few minutes in mfg, getting some sheepish customers to pay extra for a report they should have received upfront). This is exactly like the statement "everybody has battery anxiety with electric cars, so we will only supply the cars on a lease basis. No one wants to outright buy the cars, including the 'risky' batteries, so we don't offer that option" - yeah, sure.

OTOH, I think you are doing the LM399 in the meter a disservice - my experience from a KS 34465A and a DAQ6510 is that, yes, the meters drift a little initially but the references are definitely pre-burned-in or selected for lowest drift, which is one of the things you do pay for with premium brand meters. I have another meter from a chinese mfg, SDM3065X, that very obviously had the LM399 just soldered in without any selection or pre-aging done; measurement was spot on day 1, not so much after a month (drifted out of 1y spec, even.)

I'm a bit sensitive to word weaseling, as you may have guessed, and I am quite specifically allergic to "the customers wanted this, so we listened to them" inverted argument, when the end result is bad for the customer and more $$$ for the mfg.

OK guys, I got your message. I am not here to defend any decisions that went into the product development. I only offered explanations that are unsatisfactory to most people, I get it. They are not my decisions and I agree with hwj-d these discussions are futile, we all can make better uses of our time. So with that, good luck on your projects, Peace.

If you need some support, don't forget you can post on Tek.com forums.

[Mr. Scram]

I think we should understand and accept E-Design isn't solely responsible for the decisions made in designing and marketing this device. Criticism can be voiced but putting him on trial isn't very productive. I'd hate this becoming an example why customer interaction is a bad idea because I really appreciate it.

[JxR]

Hello dear E-Design!

I can't find any information in datasheet about what β-value you are design for NTC 10k temperature measurements?

I try use DMM6500 on NTC 10k with β 3870K but i see it is incorrect value, when i moving from 25С to any direction i see too much error.
It's looks like as you are using β-value too different... Maybe you use β-value around 34**K?

Also - how i can measure NTC 10k in 4-wire mode? (in Keysight DMM like as 34410A i can enable that mode)

Model number: 44006 is specifically mentioned for 10k thermistor in the specifications document.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/261/44006-275331.pdf

[KedasProbe]

About paying extra for a detailed calibration certificate I can understand that if that means the sales price is lower without.
The only reason why I would like it is for a peace of mind that it was properly calibrated, I just check the spec sheet and the last calibration date in the device.
Many are not only buying a measuring device but also a measure reference with this one purchase.

So the sheet included that says it's calibrated is a bit pointless to me, I mean what do you expect, a sheet that says the device that you just bought does NOT comply with the PDF specs?
Maybe Tek can provide some key factory calibration numbers on their website via your account after registration. (Would be strange if they do not log the calibration data in some database somewhere)
But like I said, for me it's just a peace of mind thing that the device didn't slip through calibration, I have easy access to 4  6.5digit DMM (3 different brands) with one yearly calibrated, so I can more or less make my own peace of mind about its accuracy.

And about criticism for Tek via E-Design I'm sure he can take it and that's also part why he is here to know what we think about it, to improve if possible. uh-hum
Personally I still buy the same DMM6500 again despite its flaws, it makes a nice bridge between DMM and Oscilloscope, almost all my (IoT) measurements I do with the DMM6500 only.
Some flaws are a bit like: you see the perfect smartphone but they only release it in a crap colour and then you start complaining about their colour choice.
So if people complain about it it's because they like to use the device, if they stop complaining it's because they moved on to another device. So E-Design, I'm sure you don't want us to stop complaining 

[hwj-d]

Calibration report with detailed data - it's good of course. But this is not a reason to quarrel with E-Design.
I think you must accept Tek rules or send a complaint to the representative office Tek.

Please, Shodan, I love your posts, but ...
E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.
Furthermore, an explanation such as "yes, the DMM is within its specification" as a calibration document is a real joke. You do not need a extra document for that. This is about traceable calibration data. In fact, without it, the measurements of this device are relatively worthless.

[voltsandjolts]

E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.

You are assuming E-Design is here in an official capacity where his time is paid for.
I'm not sure that is the situation.
Please be polite as many people, like me, appreciate his contributions here.

[E-Design]

Calibration report with detailed data - it's good of course. But this is not a reason to quarrel with E-Design.
I think you must accept Tek rules or send a complaint to the representative office Tek.

Please, Shodan, I love your posts, but ...
E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.
Furthermore, an explanation such as "yes, the DMM is within its specification" as a calibration document is a real joke. You do not need a extra document for that. This is about traceable calibration data. In fact, without it, the measurements of this device are relatively worthless.

Nope, I am not here in the capacity of Tek representative. I do not get paid for my time here... I am a design engineer and happen know a lot about many of the Keithley / Tek products as I have worked on them so I don't mind helping out some polite people if I can. Why not? Big companies tend to ignore the small hobby market. I do this on my own free time because electronics is also my hobby. . Everybody can use the forum as he/she wishes. Being an engineer, I will tell you as I see it - it doesn't matter to me whether or not you agree / disagree with it.

I enjoy reading all the comments because I make use of it for improving product design for next time. But I'm not going to argue about "trusting" specifications or needing proof calibration reports, wanting money for things or dealing with ridiculous, irrational comments like that. Everybodys got an opinion of course....  Each to their own!

[hwj-d]

E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.

You are assuming E-Design is here in an official capacity where his time is paid for.
I'm not sure that is the situation.
Please be polite as many people, like me, appreciate his contributions here.

Please, don't go ad hominem.
Are you accusing me of rudeness? Where are you accusing me of rudeness?
You implicitly accuse me of not appreciating his contributions? Where?
Stay pragmatic with the substantive argument, and please don't try to paternalistically trigger me outside the argument. We are not children here.

[hwj-d]

@Shodan,

my Keysight is not a Power Supply, it's a real 6.5 DMM. 

Real initial Certificate Of Calibration

Thanks for explainig, what's NORMAL. 

[E-Design]

Hey guys, no worries... lets not bicker about small things.. if I can help you about your designs, testing or application just let me know. If you need information or connect with somebody at Tek, I can trace them down and get some answers. If you want to know about the hardware design, I can help. If you want to know about firmware, I can find out.  If you want to complain - your opinion matters, and  you can take it to the Tek forums or I will relay your message to the right people who can effect change.


hwj-d, -- get me your serial, I will get your adjustment data for you on your 65xx since that's what's NORMAL to you. 

Thanks

[hwj-d]

Hey guys, no worries... lets not bicker about small things.. if I can help you about your designs, testing or application just let me know. If you need information or connect with somebody at Tek, I can trace them down and get some answers. If you want to know about the hardware design, I can help. If you want to know about firmware, I can find out.  If you want to complain - your opinion matters, and  you can take it to the Tek forums or I will relay your message to the right people who can effect change.


hwj-d, get me your serial, I can get your adjustment data on a 65xx.

Thanks

Thank's for coming back to "normal", E-Design. 
As I was saying, my DMM6500 is now over 2 years old. So I have to have it calibrated anyway, if I will get a qualified and traceable statement about the single measuring ranges like to my Keysight, as you can see there.
Thanks for the offer, but it wasn't about me personally and it wasn't about you personally, it was about Tek rethinking his practice. I hope the message gets through.

 

[TiN]

hwj-d

If you buy standard 3458A from Keysight, you DO NOT get the calibration data. In fact most of units recently sold don't come with calibration data. They come with calibration certificate that says unit is in tolerance. That is it. And it is NORMAL (e.g. common). When you buy a ruler in a store, you don't get the calibration report with actual measured uncertainty, are you? So your expectations are a bit high here, sadly. Most of the vendors do have separate calibration services that come WITH or WITHOUT data. Obviously ones without are often little cheaper, because they don't need to proof all points separately and it could go thru less processing.

Calibration business is mostly about trust. If you don't trust accreditation of the lab, you are welcome to go higher up in chain or perform your own validation of each instrument. Even on very top level between NML, nobody using word absolute accuracy but rather degree of equivalence, meaning how big is the deviation between different NMLs from the "mean" international value.

E-Design

I hope you continue to contribute, as even people without DMM6500 can learn from your posts and information. 
We all want to get all information about the product to buy, but it's just not possible. Asking for calibration data or specific instrument inner workings is like asking to publish schematics, firmware source codes and alike.
Would be great to have, but right-to-repair didn't pass yet, and nobody said it must be available for free to anyone.

[JxR]

For a second there I was just relieved that at least it wasn't me this time that chased the Keithley rep away 

Glad your going to stick around E-Design, even more now that I understand your here simply because you want to be!

hwj-d, honestly I feel the same frustration.  We all know the document already exists. I feel that my purchase of the unit should more than cover the cost of printing a couple more pages out to stick in the box.  Obviously, Danaher doesn't agree and many other companies feel the same.  It is pretty nice of E-Design being willing to help you get some numbers on the side though...I would take him up on it.

[hwj-d]

@TiN

of course I believe you. And if you say I don't need it, then of course I believe you too. With your equipment, the DMM6500 must seem like a plastic ruler. 
But have you ever bought a brand new DMM from Keysight yourself? I think the black 3458A? I mean, you saw the counterevidence from Keysight from me, right? Even a 34461A plastic ruler, and this is it indeed, is delivered with a detailed first calibration report against your experience, isn't it?

But why reopen the old debate when it has now been amicably resolved.

 

[hwj-d]

@JxR
thanks. I'm glad if someone has the ability to avoid having to fight such debates on the personal side. The line is narrow, because subjective views always play a role, which everyone wants to claim as objective. I had been an in-house trainer and consultant for years to know the human pitfalls here. Among the opinions of different people I have never encountered the objective truth anywhere.

In the post above, I already mentioned that I have to send in my dmm for calibration anyway. 

Thanks again.

[TiN]

hwj-d
I've bought number of items, DMMs, PSUs, etc from Keysight and other vendors before, and most of it comes without uncertainty data in calibration report, and such data not available even after request without ordering calibration service with data.
Black 3458A that came also did not have data in the 1 page calibration certificate and I was not able to get that.

Thinking that it cost nothing for factory to print few pages of paper with numbers is not right. That's what triggered me, not the lack of data points in report. Not denying need in numbers, just the expectation of it for free.  Try to get a piece of paper from PTB for your 10V reference for example. 1 page with a number will likely cost about four DMM6500s combined. Calibration is a business on its own, I've spent 3 years already on writing own software to do automated reports for my gear. Commercial MET/CAL software license cost tens of thousands a year too, so that fancy manufacturer lab gotta pay for it's maintenance somehow, unless we just accept increased cost for ALL products if the factory just include cost of callab into price of every bit sold. That will make everyone to pay to ensure few customers who actually value data are happy.

My point was that I was not expecting it anyway. If you get instrument with calibration report + data, that is more of a welcome bonus. But you right, no point to discuss this, as what I get or you get does not mean what everybody who buys an insturment gets, as it can vary a lot from your distributor, geo and options you order with instrument.

[hwj-d]

Someday they'll sell us cars without steering wheels because you can drive straight ahead. You ask a fellow sufferer, he'll scold you. After all, he's the one who had also purchase a car driven only straight ahead. He's struggling with his own cognitive dissonance. Everything would be "normal".

[maginnovision]

I think in this case the normal doesn't REALLY matter either way. If you don't trust the company to be honest then what does it matter how many numbers they print out on a paper.

[Kleinstein]

The DMM6500 is by no means a meteorological instrument. It is more like a nice low cost graphical meter for every day tasks. For such a meter one usually does not need detailed cal data. The initial calibration would be with adjustment or just after adjustment. So the read back data should be essentially spot on. However the initial drift can be quite fast, likely exceeding the small initial difference within days or weeks.

Time of use helps to improve the stability. So the real meaningful cal data would be those after 1 and 2 years. The user is free to than order calibration with data if needed. The initial calibration is not even very useful to estimate the longer time drift - so for the initial calibration the data are of very limited value.

[hwj-d]

The DMM6500 is by no means a meteorological instrument. It is more like a nice low cost graphical meter for every day tasks. For such a meter one usually does not need detailed cal data.
...

If that meter is such a little nice "evey day task tool", than all the scanning tools and the DMAQ6510 is a not been taken seriously "nice tool", and all the Keithleys 6.5 DMM's too.
Guys, what's wrong? Has the Covid virus really kicked in yet? 
 

[MegaVolt]

Interestingly, I received a calibration report with all the numbers on the DMM7510 simply by asking him through the seller. No money or problems. Is the 6500 in some kind of special situation?

[eplpwr]

These are my experiences:
I bought a DMM7510 and a DAQ6510 and expected a factory cal report. Before that I had bought a KS 34465A and got a detailed cal report in the shipping box, so it sort of set the expectation level for me. Well, no report. I contacted Tek support and asked for the factory cal report. They said I should have ordered it with the new meters. I THEN OFFERED TO PAY FOR A COPY OF EACH REPORT. The answer was NO, we can't do that. Volcano (me) erupts, support sends me two PDF reports free of charge.

My point is that the information that you're supposed to make your initial order in some specific way is very, very unclear.

@TiN
Regarding KS, I've bought 4 pcs of equipment new and 30+ pcs used from different sources. After registering the S/N on myKeysight, I can see all calibration reports for all my equipment online, and download as a PDF if I so choose to. Quite a service, I think, and it makes the equipment more valuable to me to have previous reference points.

Edit: Some of the KS reports, like for 34465A/70A are detailed, some are just "equipment in spec".

Edit2: Increased (doubled) the number of HPAK equipment after counting. Seems i have a TEA and is trying to fool myself. 

[eplpwr]

Also, some praise for Tek/Keithley:

You get a free Kickstart license after registering your product. The software is good and also frequently updated/improved.

Not only did I get licenses for two DMMs, I also can claim Kickstart licenses for old equipment I bought used: one 2400 SMU, 2 x 2602A SMUs and one 2612A SMU - a total of four unclaimed licenses for which I have no use right now. So, free licenses for 15-20 yr old stuff - very generous.

My opinion on BenchVue and it's licensing model should not derail this thread, let's just say Keithley have much better S/W and a more generous licensing model. IMHO.