New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510

[E-Design]

Hi, I have had my 6500 for nearly 2 years now and have a question please.
It has always been a bit twitchy, blue screens, locking up etc but I persevered as I hoped firmware updates would resolve these issues as many others seemed to be experiencing similar problems.
I upgraded to 1.7.3c a month or so ago and this seemed to solve the prolems.  I was really having trouble with the meter just halting readings while in continuous mode , meaning I would return to the lab to find no readings had been taken
However, I still have one issue remaining which is a real nuisance. If the meter does lock up (I accept that while writing scripts it may get into a muddle sometimes)  and a power off reset is performed it often hangs on the first Keithley logo screen. The only way I have found to escape this is to turn off the meter (the power button still functions) and have to remove the mains power for a while (about 30 minutes usually does it but on rare occasions may need longer) this is a major problem which the latest firmware has not helped with.  Any advice or similar experiences would be interesting to hear about.
A quick thank you to E-Design for offering inside support and help, it was because of Brad's input way back that made me choose this meter.
Mike

Yes, fortunately the recent firmware releases have cleaned up a lot of bugs. However, I am sorry to hear you can still experience a lockup. Needing to leave the meter off for 30 minutes or more to resolve seems odd and makes me think it might be related to the meter being warmed up.

Even though it may be intermittent, Is it the same script running when you experience it?
Do you know the date of manufacture (or purchase) ? There could be other possibilities if it is always a hang at the boot screen.

Hi E-Design, thanks for responding.
I bought it from Farnell UK in early April 2019 S.No 04415206
There is no consistency regarding when it is going to freeze, or for what reason. All I can say is that, apart from script lockups, it has the habit of occasionally just stopping the continuous measurement usually sometime during the first 30 minutes after power on in the morning, sometimes different button presses and random combinations will allow it to start but not able to discern any definite procedure. This is not the serious problem, the main gripe is when a power off reset is made it often hangs on the opening Keithley screen before even the relay clicks.  I am a repair tech so am more than happy to investigate if you can offer any information. Leaving it in the off condition but with power applied doesn't work, must be unplugged from the power.  One possible clue is that usually  it has just crashed when I perform the reset, if I turn it off then on from working state I don't seem to have the boot up problem
Thanks for any help you can offer.  Mike

Mike, thanks for the info. When I return to the office after holiday break I will discuss these symptoms with a firmware engineer and we can go from there.

[E-Design]

I bought mine very recently and while the fan's kinda loud the most annoying thing is the transformer noise, especially when it's off. Have to power off the entire strip so it doesn't annoy me when not in use.

Mine has the same issue. Transformer noise can be heard from across the room.

They cheaped out on that important part, production may have already changed that test to '= True' or increased the tol. to high because they had to much 'problems'.
I would have gladly paid 10Euro more for one without so much hum, I also kill the power strip if not in use.
Just so you know an active noise canceling headset is also fixing it (I tested it)
But I think al these big vibrations in the unit can't be that good on the long term.

Maybe next time they should provide a DC power input at the back so you can do it right yourself. (It's Cheaper!!)

Thanks for the feedback. We are aware that some users consider the transformer and fans loud. BUT If you have big vibrations, you should consider that you have a faulty unit and send it in for service. I am fairly certain no units ship with big vibrations or excessive audible noise (it is checked). Some people are more sensitive to it than others. 

The DC power input at the back (mechanical switch) was investigated and was not lower cost than the soft power. That being said, if there is another generation meter -- it likely won't be at this price point and thus it will probably have the power input filter with switch like most other products. Those are much nicer indeed.

[Mr. Scram]

Thanks for the feedback. We are aware that some users consider the transformer and fans loud. BUT If you have big vibrations, you should consider that you have a faulty unit and send it in for service. I am fairly certain no units ship with big vibrations or excessive audible noise (it is checked). Some people are more sensitive to it than others. 

The DC power input at the back (mechanical switch) was investigated and was not lower cost than the soft power. That being said, if there is another generation meter -- it likely won't be at this price point and thus it will probably have the power input filter with switch like most other products. Those are much nicer indeed.

Keithley 2000 and 34401A transformers are near perfectly silent. The DMM6500 can be heard from across the room. At what point noise becomes an issue can be personal but a large difference can objectively be established.

[KaneTW]

Yep. My electronics equipment is in my bedroom. All my R&S stuff is dead silent. Keithley hums unbearably. Really annoying

[E-Design]

Thanks for the feedback. We are aware that some users consider the transformer and fans loud. BUT If you have big vibrations, you should consider that you have a faulty unit and send it in for service. I am fairly certain no units ship with big vibrations or excessive audible noise (it is checked). Some people are more sensitive to it than others. 

The DC power input at the back (mechanical switch) was investigated and was not lower cost than the soft power. That being said, if there is another generation meter -- it likely won't be at this price point and thus it will probably have the power input filter with switch like most other products. Those are much nicer indeed.

Keithley 2000 and 34401A transformers are near perfectly silent. The DMM6500 can be heard from across the room. At what point noise becomes an issue can be personal but a large difference can objectively be established.

Of course, no disagreement here. The 65xx transformer was designed from scratch as the KI2000 model was too expensive and not suitable for 65xx (due to the DAQ model) As such, we did take steps to reduce the transformer hum and even quantify it to a level that most people found acceptable. However, since it is not silent, there will be those who are bothered by it. A new design to make it quieter without costing more, might be feasible in the future.. only time will tell. I dont think enough formal complaints have been made to drive change though - and there are a lot of these units in the field.

I am always looking to improve the design and can better do so with formal reports filed by customers (not me representing web forums.. haha)   
ahem, management likes reports, statistics and data, not complaining design engineers.. 

[bgm370]

My DMM6500 was initially silent but over a course of the first year it developed that same annoying transformer noise (even when off). I contacted the Keithley support and was told that it is a known issue related to the power transformer windings. So the unit was serviced under the warranty and even recalibrated, the turnaround was around 10 days. The transformer is dead silent now.

[rernexy]

I bought mine very recently ....

Do you know when it was assembled/manufactured?
Even though you purchased it recently, maybe it was from an old production run. Admittedly it's unlikely that is the case, but you never know.

[The Bootloader]

My unit is super silent ! But it is also brand new, and I bought it straight form Tektronix USA. So maybe they fixed this issue ?

The fan nosie of my 2280S-60-3 power supply is much stronger and much more annoying. I somehow didn't really notice it when I reviewed it, but after a while I really started to notice.

[E-Design]

Regarding the transformer noise issue, earlier units were more susceptible to having the audible noise problem. Additional measures and improvements were made since then and have reduced the magnitude of the problem. But I think some units can still be noticed by some people.

[KaneTW]

I bought mine very recently ....

Do you know when it was assembled/manufactured?
Even though you purchased it recently, maybe it was from an old production run. Admittedly it's unlikely that is the case, but you never know.

No idea. Factory calibration happened in Sep '20.

[rernexy]

So the unit was serviced under the warranty and even recalibrated, the turnaround was around 10 days. The transformer is dead silent now.

How long ago did you get it serviced under the warranty?

[RBBVNL9]

I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:

As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?

Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.

Is there anything else on that flash drive?  One of our co-ops remembered seeing a bug during development where the DMM would sometimes crash after having the flash drive inserted for some time.  He believed it was related to what files were on the drive but doesn't know what file would've caused it since he erased the drive.  We haven't seen anything like that since then, and there's not an obvious reason why any process that reads the flash drive would cause a crash, but it's something to go on.  If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?

Just purchased a DMM6500 and updated it to the current FW (Version 1.7.3). First impressions are very positive.

But I also do got to see a crash making a screen dump to a USB thumb drive. No other files on that drive really, just an empty, regular FAT32 formatted drive.



 

[voltsandjolts]

This is a great meter which I enjoy using but, as you have seen, it still has a blue screen shit-the-bed moment every now and again

At least you got the Program Counter value, maybe something for the softies to chew on.

[rernexy]

A crash before the screen protector has been taken off

[RBBVNL9]

At least you got the Program Counter value, maybe something for the softies to chew on.

Yes... even if I had to use my phone for that...

A crash before the screen protector has been taken off

You are right indeed 

Earlier posts suggested that the instrument might have issues with certain USB thumb drives or files on it. Even though this was an empty drive (with only the FW file on it, but that should not hurt), I will probably re-format the drive. In many photo camera's it is possible (and recommended!) to format the drive/card with the camera itself. Measurement instruments however seldom offer this option, but could benefit from it. 

[RBBVNL9]

Tried a bit more and the problem is persistent, actually quite repeatable... I had 8 crashes within 5 minutes when trying to do screen dumps. Five times the shown error code was "PC=002F6B2C" and three times it was "PC=00080CFC =3". Tried different USB thumb drives.

But the remarkable thing is: I also get these crashes without any USB drive in the slot at all! Every time I press HOME + ENTER within a few seconds apart, a crash appears at the second time. So that does not sound like a specific incompatibility with the thumb drives I used, or with the files on it.

Can some other DMM6500 user try the same thing? Power up the instrument without USB drive inserted, wait 10 seconds, and then twice make a screen dump? Do you get crashes too? And which FW are you running?


Thanks!

[bgm370]

So the unit was serviced under the warranty and even recalibrated, the turnaround was around 10 days. The transformer is dead silent now.

How long ago did you get it serviced under the warranty?

November 2020.

[analogRF]

Tried a bit more and the problem is persistent, actually quite repeatable... I had 8 crashes within 5 minutes when trying to do screen dumps. Five times the shown error code was "PC=002F6B2C" and three times it was "PC=00080CFC =3". Tried different USB thumb drives.

But the remarkable thing is: I also get these crashes without any USB drive in the slot at all! Every time I press HOME + ENTER within a few seconds apart, a crash appears at the second time. So that does not sound like a specific incompatibility with the thumb drives I used, or with the files on it.

Can some other DMM6500 user try the same thing? Power up the instrument without USB drive inserted, wait 10 seconds, and then twice make a screen dump? Do you get crashes too? And which FW are you running?


Thanks!

I tried it several times with and without USB stick and nothing bad happened. w/o flash drive it gives an error and w/ flash drive saves the screenshot. the flash drive has bunch of stuff on it and not formatted. It's an old Kingston 8GB
I got my unit last week and flashed the latest firmware 1.7.3

and no transformer annoyance or excessive fan noise either. Transformer is really silent and fan is normal, no louder than my agilent multimeter

[Simi-DT]

Tried a bit more and the problem is persistent, actually quite repeatable... I had 8 crashes within 5 minutes when trying to do screen dumps. Five times the shown error code was "PC=002F6B2C" and three times it was "PC=00080CFC =3". Tried different USB thumb drives.

But the remarkable thing is: I also get these crashes without any USB drive in the slot at all! Every time I press HOME + ENTER within a few seconds apart, a crash appears at the second time. So that does not sound like a specific incompatibility with the thumb drives I used, or with the files on it.

Can some other DMM6500 user try the same thing? Power up the instrument without USB drive inserted, wait 10 seconds, and then twice make a screen dump? Do you get crashes too? And which FW are you running?


Thanks!

Hello!

With my new DMM6500 and firmware 1.7.3c I can confirm the crash after second try to capture a screenshot with HOME + ENTER without an USB stick inserted.
With an USB stick it is fine until now. I only tried an older stick with 2 GB.

Simon

[RBBVNL9]

Thanks analogRF and Simi-DT for trying this out! 

My tentative conclusions is that for at least for some of us, the dmm6500 with FW1.7.3:

• Crashes upon a second attempt to capture the screen when an USB drive is not inserted. For those that have this problem, it is fully replicable.
• One of my USB drives was by error not correctly recognised as present, and caused the above crash also when it was inserted.

PS1. The drive I experienced problems with was a SanDisk 16GB Cruzer Fit USB 2.0 Flash Drive (SDCZ33-016G-G35). I like to use these tiny drives on front panel applications (instruments, car radio, etc.) because they don't stick out and reduces the risk you break something. But I cannot say whether the problem with this drive is systematic; it might be just ste specific copy I used. My drive worked before on the dmm6500 and was actually used to upgrade it to FW1.7.3... I just took a brand new drive of this type, reformatted it 'fully' on a Windows 8 laptop (so not relying on the reformatting of the manufacturer of the drive) and that one seems to work without crashes now. Need to test longer, though.

PS2 When no USB drive is present, the first attempt for a screen dump you see a popup saying "Saving screen capture" so it seems as if it was a success. But then note the tiny red icon on the right top of the screen. If you click it, it says "Error 2224 USB flash drive not present". (This is when all errors and warnings are turned on.) So if Keithley fixes the crash, they could also make a clearer error message that a screen dump failed!

[RBBVNL9]

Update: a representative of Tektronix/Keithley just informed me that they were able to replicate the crashes there as well. He passed this on  and hopes this will be fixed in a future FW releases. So let's wait (and not try to hit the HOME and ENTER buttons when there is no flash drive inserted)...

I do appreciate their very fast response, I should add.

[Simi-DT]

and no transformer annoyance or excessive fan noise either. Transformer is really silent and fan is normal, no louder than my agilent multimeter

Regarding the fan noise: Did someone already a DIY improvement? I feel a bit disappointed with the noise level. For my device I measure 52 dBA close to the fan and 40 dBA appox. 0.5 m away. Blocking only the inlet area increases the temperature inside the device and some drift in the measurements becomes visible.

Thank you!

Simon

[JimKnopf]

To my surprise i have the problem when no USB-Stick is plugged in. It crashes with the blue screen.
Never had this Problem with a USB-Stick plugged in.

[analogRF]

why does it only affect some instruments but not all?

I tried again and no problem, just gives an error (#2224 I guess it was) when no USB stick is inserted

[RBBVNL9]

Dear analogRF,

why does it only affect some instruments but not all?

To be honest: no idea... Just to be sure: you did try two attempts to make screen dumps in a row, right? In my case, the first time it gives error "Error 2224 USB flash drive not present", and the second time it crashes.

For you, does it give this error both times?