Windows is getting disgusting

[strangersound]

And when and why did Microsoft decide to ditch ACTUAL PROGRESS BARS?  What is with this bar that just slides back and forth eternally like a Cylon and doesn't indicate shit?

Yeah, I don't get that either. Talk about annoying. You don't know if something is even happening or it's crashed/stalled. I don't get why Microsoft always changes things that work already. It's like they are trying to annoy you. Kind of like the first time I tried to find "select all" on Windows 7 or 8 (I'm not sure which). I was helping my boy transfer some files from his camera and showing him how to do it. So I selected one file and then right clicked and was like "where the hell is select all"? So I go up to the menu bar figuring it would be under edit like it usually is...nope. I had to get my daughter and ask her where it might be (I hadn't used 7 or 8 yet) and we finally accidentally found it somewhere in some totally unobvious place. I probably couldn't find it again if I had to.

Kind of like Vista the first time I went to sort a folder by file type. Again, it was gone from the right click menu. And no matter how many times you go to folder options and add it to the list, it never sticks. Annoys me to no end. Kind of like how they always rearrange the control panel and rename stuff. Why the hell do they do these things?! They love to take a Windows "standard" way of doing things and change it every time they do a new OS. WHY?!?!?! Grrr....

And while I'm ranting, what sadistic monster decided how words in English should be spelled? There's no method to it at all. Madness, me thinks.

[Armxnian]

Gimp doesn't come even close to the same capabilities as Photoshop CC. You are forgetting the many other pieces of software in Adobe CC.

Many people claim this, but it seems they never have any objective evidence to back it up. Have you asked for a certain feature on the gimp forums and not received a response? I'm sure you can do everything in GIMP that you can in Photoshop. It might have a learning curve initially, but everything does.

You are forgetting the many other pieces of software in Adobe CC.

There are alternatives to everything. There are many drawing programs that are a replacement for illustrator. Same for lightroom. I don't use these programs on a daily basis, but they are all still being developed, which means there is a community. OS software stops being updated if there is no user base or something superior has been created.

Blender does many good things, but its user friendliness is horrible compared to Vegas.

Easier to use than Blender initially but that's about it. I would prefer to use Premiere but I don't like either. Don't like blender that much as well. I don't think professional movies use any of these.

I understand if you have learned to use a specific program and don't want or have the time to switch to something else. But saying there are no alternatives that come close to a paid program is just ignorant. In reality I have found it to be the opposite. The #1 priority at any business is to to make money. Not a problem for an OS programmer as they code out passion, not because they're required to slave away at a company.

Believe me, I would love to dump MS altogether and never have to worry about being locked in to their crap, and not have to worry about what they are doing to me behind my back. The truth is that there is no one Linux distro and collection of software that runs on that one distro without dependency conflicts. I would even be happy to run two distros to make it all work, but I have yet to see it possible.

I need full color calibration on multi monitors, Optimus video card technology support, Wacom support, room acoustic correction support, HP Laserjet CP1025NW support, Brother DC1512 support, Bluetooth audio support, Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD, music tacking and production software, DVD and Bluray playback, DVD and Bluray authoring, driver support for Canon EOS, and all on one or at most two distros without any dependency conflicts. Windows can do all of this but I have yet to see one Linux distro handle everything. Like I said I would be happy to have two distros to do it all, but who has time to research and install everything over and over again until you find something that doesn't break?

I'm not sure what you mean by "dependency conflicts". Are you saying there isn't a single distro that supports all the packages you need? I've never found that to be an issue on Arch Linux.

[MrSlack]

GIMP doesn't do a proper CMYK colour model so it's entirely 100% useless for commercial print operation.

I can go on for hours on a reply here but it's 00:01 here and I'm tired

[Armxnian]

GIMP doesn't do a proper CMYK colour model so it's entirely 100% useless for commercial print operation.

I can go on for hours on a reply here but it's 00:01 here and I'm tired

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CMYK_support_in_The_GIMP

Just to add, you have to take into account the user base when comparing open source and paid. If the application is niche, then spending a large amount of time for something that isn't going to be publicly used is a waste of time. You deserve and should get paid for developing something like that, because the business will use it to make money. Imagine a CAD program that simulates cpu fabrication. Who the hell would develop something like that for free, if even possible without a large amount of resources. Plus, who fabricates processors at home? Complete waste of time and ridiculous to open source something like that.

[amyk]

Who the hell would develop something like that for free, if even possible without a large amount of resources. Plus, who fabricates processors at home? Complete waste of time and ridiculous to open source something like that.

You never know... http://p2pfoundation.net/Home_CMOS_Project

[Muxr]

It is true there is no real alternative to Photoshop on Linux. You can run that stuff via wine, or pay for Crossover which makes it easier. But your mileage will vary.

This is why I think OS X is the best of both worlds. Photoshop runs natively, Final Cut Pro is just as good if not better than Vegas, and all the FOSS apps which are good, are a 1st rate citizen on OS X as well.

And for that one App you can't find on OS X, you can always just run it in VirtualBox or one of the other VM environments without a need for dual boot.

There are a lot of great FOSS apps, Inkscape, KiCad, Blender to name a few... But Gimp can't hold a candle to Photoshop.

[Lightages]

I understand if you have learned to use a specific program and don't want or have the time to switch to something else. But saying there are no alternatives that come close to a paid program is just ignorant.

I have been told that many times, during the whole year I tried to use Linux to do all I wanted and could not. I tried, really really tried.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dependency conflicts". Are you saying there isn't a single distro that supports all the packages you need? I've never found that to be an issue on Arch Linux.

Yes, every time I tried to make everything work in one distro and installation, distro was broken at some time because of dependency conflicts. I gave up after a year. Pointless waste of time.

I made the offer before and I will make it again; I will pay a pretty high finder's fee for anyone who can demonstrate a fully working, one boot, one distro of Linux that will do what I have listed. Every time I asked for help on Linux forums, I was told I was too stupid to be using computers and should kill myself. I never found any help in any Linux forum. This was because I dared to point out the flaws of Linux as a fully working desk top OS.

And yes, I compiled my kernels, compiled my own version of software using whatever dependencies were necessary to try and make it compatible with my distro and it never worked in the end. If you are so sure you can get everything working that I have listed in the is thread on a properly supported Linux distro with all the software available in the native repository and will work on all of my hardware, I will pay you $1000. If you decide to take me up on this, I will supply a comprehensive list of all the software and hardware I use that works right now for me in Windows.

[Armxnian]

You never know... http://p2pfoundation.net/Home_CMOS_Project

Does this come with an OSHW fabrication plant?

It is true there is no real alternative to Photoshop on Linux.
There are a lot of great FOSS apps, Inkscape, KiCad, Blender to name a few... But Gimp can't hold a candle to Photoshop.

Still no actual evidence of commonly used features that are available in photoshop but not gimp...
Developers of free software have priorities. A feature that 1 in 1000 users actually needs gets put on the bottom of the to-do list. Adobe might implement a niche features because they exist to make the most profit, not to make everyone happy.

As I said, I highly doubt that a large portion of users begged for a useful feature and gimp devs refused because they simply didn't want to or know how to implement it. The original creators of such things obviously know what they're doing in their field. GEGL is coming in the next version, which will make gimp much more powerful.

Personally I don't care for any of these programs or being open source in general. Closed source freeware is where it's at. Having a single or small group of pros coding out of passion is how to make great software. Not publishing your source code is just a way of protecting your work and algorithms. Making it open would just have it stolen and taken credit for the next day, and probably implemented in a paid program. Never underestimate how pathetic people can be when trying to make an extra buck.

This is why I think OS X is the best of both worlds. Photoshop runs natively, Final Cut Pro is just as good if not better than Vegas, and all the FOSS apps which are good, are a 1st rate citizen on OS X as well.

I've used windows my entire life.. Starting from Windows 98 up to 10. It's a piece of crap. I've used osx on the side for 4 years. It pisses me off as much as windows. When you learn how to use linux and don't become terrified at a terminal window, you notice the advantages and realize it's the superior OS and the future.

[Armxnian]

Yes, every time I tried to make everything work in one distro and installation, distro was broken at some time because of dependency conflicts. I gave up after a year. Pointless waste of time.

I made the offer before and I will make it again; I will pay a pretty high finder's fee for anyone who can demonstrate a fully working, one boot, one distro of Linux that will do what I have listed. Every time I asked for help on Linux forums, I was told I was too stupid to be using computers and should kill myself. I never found any help in any Linux forum. This was because I dared to point out the flaws of Linux as a fully working desk top OS.

And yes, I compiled my kernels, compiled my own version of software using whatever dependencies were necessary to try and make it compatible with my distro and it never worked in the end. If you are so sure you can get everything working that I have listed in the is thread on a properly supported Linux distro with all the software available in the native repository and will work on all of my hardware, I will pay you $1000. If you decide to take me up on this, I will supply a comprehensive list of all the software and hardware I use that works right now for me in Windows.

Sounds frustrating. I wouldn't bother with linux forums for questions like that. They usually just refer you to the wiki, which is good, but you often need to figure it out yourself and google related questions/problems.

I'm a noob at linux. As I said, I've primarily used and know Windows, but got tired of the scam that is M$FT and most paid software and their NSA backdoors. Don't want your money either. Also, only you can demonstrate that all those work, because only you have your exact setup/configuration.

I need full color calibration on multi monitors, Optimus video card technology support, Wacom support, room acoustic correction support, HP Laserjet CP1025NW support, Brother DC1512 support, Bluetooth audio support, Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD, music tacking and production software, DVD and Bluray playback, DVD and Bluray authoring

Haven't played around with multi monitor color calibrations but system wide color management comes default with gnome. I would recommend dispcalgui for color managment. You can have more control within a color managed program like gimp. There is a guide on the arch wiki on getting optimus to work. You might need a module for some devices. Optimus does work though, as proven with laptops with igpu and a dedicated gpu. Same thing with wacom, check out the guide. Just packages and maybe modules. Not sure what you mean by room acoustic correction. If you're outputting an analog signal then you need support in the device driver and perhaps the audio application. If digital then it's up to your receiver. I can't test printer compatibility because I don't have that hardware. If linux drivers aren't available from the manufacturer then it's kind of their fault that you can't get it up and running instantly. Generic configurations should be possible but I have no clue if they will allow for all features. Bluetooth audio as in a headset or wireless speakers? Might require some tinkering. I'm sure this is doable but have no way of testing it. "Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD" These are all common programs, if your distro cannot function with these apps installed together, then I would trash it and not look back, because it's a piece of crap. I don't know of what you require in music production software, so I'll recommend audacity, which again you should have no problem with. From an enthusiasts perspective, windows seems better for media playback such as bluray. You have bundled filters/decoders and high quality renderers due to directx and everything that comes with it. That said, playing a dvd or bluray mux should be trivial with something like mpv. For authoring and other multimedia related questions I would check the doom9 forums.

I recommended Arch Linux (or similar like gentoo, etc.) for a reason. It comes bare minimum. The less stuff there is, and the less things the underlying code relies on to run stably, the less chance for conflicting packages or dependency problems. Getting your entire configuration running in linux isn't a 5 minute job unless you are familiar with how everything works and have expertise in doing it before. Configuring and messing around with linux is a great task when you're bored. Spend some free time if you have any / want to and try again. No point in changing your workflow just because you can to run on a different OS. But it shouldn't take a year to figure out if you can switch. Point is, linux should work for all setups, and is easier to work in once you get it going. Obviously there are complications with doing certain things or performing niche tasks, but there are solutions for everything. If there isn't a program, a driver or a module avaiable, then write your own 

[Lightages]

Armxnian:

Your suggestions are exactly what I don't want to do. I don't want to experiment and find and compile and write my own programs. I want to use my computer, not make it work. This is what always stops Linux from working for anyone who wants to more than a few things on one distro, everything is a gamble or hard work to get things all working. The best purpose of Linux existing on the desktop, is to learn to how to make Linux work on the desktop. As a useful tool for all purpose general computing forget it. I back up this statement by putting my money where my mouth is. Give me a supported distro that does everything I need, you get $1000. I think I will never pay out.

[Armxnian]

Damn, I spent an hour writing that.

It's not fair to say give me a Linux distro that does exactly what my windows system does, because Linux isn't windows. Also not fair to say you don't want to make it work. When you first used Windows and a program, you weren't an expert, you had to learn and make them work. A package manager makes your life easier. You download whatever you want (and its dependencies) in 1 second. In Windows you have to look for it. You update all your programs with a single command. If you let windows handle some driver updates, it installs outdated or incorrect versions and breaks your machine...

Your requirements aren't really that demanding. Your config should work in any distro. I recommend Arch, but you said you don't want to make your computer work. So what else have you tried? Many things are supported on Ubuntu and CentOS. I prefer Fedora for plug and play. That said, if your hardware or workflow was designed for Windows, then how do you expect to instantly port it to Linux and not have to configure anything? That's your limitation, not the kernel's or the distro's. I've installed everything I could think of on multiple distro's and in VMs and natively. No problems whatsoever. Not sure what else to say other than try again and troubleshoot if you run into problems.

[MrSlack]

A package manager makes your life easier. You download whatever you want (and its dependencies) in 1 second. In Windows you have to look for it. You update all your programs with a single command. If you let windows handle some driver updates, it installs outdated or incorrect versions and breaks your machine...

I'm a 25% time Linux sysadmin and 75% software engineer and have been using it for about 20 years solid. The package manager is great, when it works. Unfortunately today it's an asshat. I have a massive dependency stack on a particular version of uwsgi to resolve which means I need to eviscerate everything that CentOS+EPEL ship and install everything via pip, another package manager for python. And that has a dependency on a compiler toolchain on the target system. It's a rat's nest held at the mercy of your distribution vendor. Then there's the whole "let's import random shit from god knows who" situation on Ubunty (PPAs).

Oh and I've got to get from situation A -> B on 60 physical nodes running about 2000 processes entirely transparently using only ansible for automation.

Windows is no better for different reasons but there's no advantage either way.

[Lightages]

Damn, I spent an hour writing that.

It's not fair to say give me a Linux distro that does exactly what my windows system does, because Linux isn't windows. Also not fair to say you don't want to make it work. When you first used Windows and a program, you weren't an expert, you had to learn and make them work.

Not even close to the same. When I started using Windows, and Linux, I had to learn how to use them. That is different than making them work. Windows basically worked, and works, without me having to learn how to compile kernels and software. It was also very rare that installing a program would take down ten other programs or even the OS itself. That is what I mean by making it work, not understanding how to use it. And AGAIN! I tried to use Linux exclusively for a year and it was not possible. No one can tell me I didn't try to learn.

Your requirements aren't really that demanding. Your config should work in any distro. I recommend Arch, but you said you don't want to make your computer work. So what else have you tried? Many things are supported on Ubuntu and CentOS. I prefer Fedora for plug and play. That said, if your hardware or workflow was designed for Windows, then how do you expect to instantly port it to Linux and not have to configure anything? That's your limitation, not the kernel's or the distro's. I've installed everything I could think of on multiple distro's and in VMs and natively. No problems whatsoever. Not sure what else to say other than try again and troubleshoot if you run into problems.

Again. I tried to make things work in Linux. I adjusted my work flow. I searched for and compiled drivers and other software to make it work. I did this for a year. You can assert that what I want to do should work all you want. When it doesn't work, it doesn't. I tried Mandrake, Fedora, Mint, Pure Debian, and even special distros for multimedia production. IT DIDN'T WORK. Is that so hard to believe?

It always amazes me when people say Linux can do it all. Then when I bring up the things it couldn't do I get chastized for trying to make Linux do a similar task that a Windows OS can do without problems. Stop trying to say I wanted to make Linux work like Windows. I wanted to accomplish the same tasks, however it would be differently done or if I had to learn a new philosophy and how it worked. IT DIDN'T WORK.

[Artlav]

Yes, every time I tried to make everything work in one distro and installation, distro was broken at some time because of dependency conflicts. I gave up after a year. Pointless waste of time.

Could you elaborate on "dependency conflicts"?
What exactly refused to work with what?

It always amazes me when people say Linux can do it all.

Not that amazing, actually. It all goes down to perspective.
Windows is a consumer grade product, Linux is an industrial grade product.

An industrial solution can, in fact, do anything, but it won't "just do" it.
You are required to make it work (or hire people who will make it work for you).
While in a consumer solution all the "make it work" is already included in the package.

This is the difference in perspective which, i guess, makes the linux people yell at you.
That, or you had bad luck with dickhead concentrations.

[Lightages]

Wow....

How many times do I need to say that I worked with Linux for a year? I didn't just install it and expect to push buttons on the screen and have magic happen. What part of this is unclear? I did everything I could, the Linux way, to get the functionality I needed. It was not possible. Do I want a computer as a tool or as a means to an end itself? If I was interested in learning to program an OS, build and compile my own programs, and write hardware drivers, then Linux is perfect. If I want to use my computer and not have to compile my own kernel and use multi boot to avoid dependency conflicts in different programs, then it is unusable for the desktop how I want to use it.

[MrSlack]

Just ignore them and use what works for you. Hell I'm a Linux guy and it annoys the shit out of me on a daily basis and is definitely not perfect. When I was using Windows that annoyed the shit out of me on a daily basis and is definitely not perfect. Now I use both and they both annoy the shit out of me and they're definitely not perfect.

Life goes on...so many sides. Everyone wants you on theirs. Doesn't matter at the end of the day. What we create with the tools matters more than whether it's a CK or a Wera screwdriver.

[Artlav]

What part of this is unclear?

It's perfectly clear that Linux is not going to work for your use cases with any reasonable amount of effort.

I guess i tried to say it in too many words?

avoid dependency conflicts in different programs

I'd still like to know what kind of dependency conflicts you ran into.

[Lightages]

I'd still like to know what kind of dependency conflicts you ran into.

I can't remember all the details but all I know is that I could get maybe 70%of the programs that I wanted installed, and then the next program broke other programs or the OS.

[AndyC_772]

I shouldn't lose too much sleep over this argument if I were you.

Linux is very much 'by nerds, for nerds'. I've no doubt that, for the people who develop it, and for those people who want to use it within its capabilities, it's a perfectly acceptable solution.

Unfortunately, there also seems to be an underlying belief amongst that same community, that ease of use is somehow a weakness. That anyone who can't make Linux do what they need it to do, is personally deficient in some way, and whatever else they need to actually use a computer for, they should expect to have to invest significant time and effort in learning and customising what is, at the end of the day, a tool to do a job and not an end in itself.

More than anything else, IMHO, this pervasive attitude is what's prevented it from becoming mainstream. After all, if it's free, and it actually does what people need, why isn't it? It's been around for years... so what went wrong?

If my job is to slay dragons, I need a sword, and I just want to buy one that works. I don't want to waste my time learning to be a blacksmith too.

[MrSlack]

Well said.

[suicidaleggroll]

Unfortunately, there also seems to be an underlying belief amongst that same community, that ease of use is somehow a weakness.

It's not a weakness in itself, but it is different.  It's a different way to design a system, it's a different way to use a system.  Increased ease of use is almost always associated with a reduction in flexibility.  You simply CANNOT have a GUI with one big button in the middle that does everything a user might need a computer to do.  The more flexibility and power you give to the user, the more complicated you make the interface, and the longer the learning process becomes.  It's a trade-off.  Windows errs on the sit-down-and-use-it side, isolating the user from the inner workings, in turn making it nearly impossible to fix when things go wrong and making certain tasks fundamentally impossible.  Linux errs on the flexibility/power side, which makes a lot more possible, and makes many tasks significantly faster, but it means there is a much steeper learning curve.

Most Linux users are of the belief that once you get past that initial learning curve, the benefits outweigh the time invested.  This isn't ALWAYS the case with EVERY application of course, it depends on what the user needs it for.  It does take a certain kind of person to want to push through that learning curve to reach that point as well, and not everybody cares enough to bother.  My wife certainly doesn't, and that's fine with me.

It's similar to automatic vs manual transmissions IMO.  The auto lets you sit down and drive with little effort, but it's more expensive, less reliable, requires more maintenance, reduces power, reduces gas mileage, and cuts back on your flexibility and control.  The manual takes much longer to learn, but once you're done you have complete control, and most people (in my experience) who go through the effort to learn how to drive a manual car end up preferring it.  Neither of them are globally better than the other, but one might be better than the other at certain tasks and for certain people.

Yes Linux can be a PITA at times, but I find Windows to be far more of a PITA far more often, which is why I use it as little as possible.  I still keep it around though because there are some programs I need it for.  I also keep Linux around because there are a LOT of programs and a LOT of jobs I simply can't do, at all, if I could only use Windows.

[Votality]

You guys need to work in I.T.. You loose this evangelism for any particular platform. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

[eugenenine]

It goes back to the old saying "Every OS Sucks"
I've had to use Windows on $work$ provided PC's for the last decade and I'll never use it on my own machine.  I've lost so much time to the random reboot or bluescreen, inability to resume, excel/word or sharepoint just eating my document, etc.  I've opened cases with Microsoft for servers I supported when, despite the enterprise license, deciding it was not longer legal or strange bugs that got a "won't fix" status.
The rare times I've had an issue with an open source program, I sign up for their forum, post and get a fix.  It just amazes me for the amount of $ that goes into close source software in all the development processes and qa testing that there are so many problems.

[miguelvp]

It goes back to the old saying "Every OS Sucks"
I've had to use Windows on $work$ provided PC's for the last decade and I'll never use it on my own machine.  I've lost so much time to the random reboot or bluescreen, inability to resume, excel/word or sharepoint just eating my document, etc.  I've opened cases with Microsoft for servers I supported when, despite the enterprise license, deciding it was not longer legal or strange bugs that got a "won't fix" status.
The rare times I've had an issue with an open source program, I sign up for their forum, post and get a fix.  It just amazes me for the amount of $ that goes into close source software in all the development processes and qa testing that there are so many problems.

That's pretty bad luck, I don't even remember when is the last time I got a blue screen of death, reboots or anything unexpected. Maybe they just give you subpar computers at work. Granted that our IT dept is really really good and they are the ones that investigate what systems we should use for our development environment.

[MrSlack]

Yep. We don't get any problems like that. Actually the last BSOD I had was about 2009.