REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol

[Corporate666]

But although I can understand backlogs,  I begin to see a red flag when a manufacturer repeatedly fails to meet already-promised distributor commitments within a reasonable time span.

I think you're being a little paranoid. Everyone knows the -S version is coming out shortly (if not already on sale in China) - so it's quite possible that backlogs/delays are connected to that. BTW, Batronix here in the EU (as well as other companies) seems to continue to have stock so it seems to be an NA problem - not a manufacturing or FW problem.

...and serious, unfixed bugs

What might those be? There are no serious bugs - and just one rather annoying one.

...and we see a very unclear picture of where Rigol is taking this product.

I'm not sure I follow. The DS2000 is very successful - so Rigol is coming out with an enhanced version with built-in AWG (the -S model) to broaden the line.

I think it might be a manufacturing issue related to the USA-specific Rigol products.

I looked at their website and out of 26 'scopes they make, only 10 have any stock (mostly the old 1000 series).  No function generators in stock except for a few models of the DG5000 (no 1000's, or 4000's).  None of their multimeters are in stock.  Only one power supply is in stock out of 5.  And only one of their 9 spectrum analyzers are in stock.

Now I don't keep tabs on their inventory on a regular basis, but that seems like a pitifully low amount of stock considering I don't see any suppliers having stock either... it seems like nothing has come in for quite a while and they are "running dry".

Seems enough stock in other parts of the world though, so it appears to be affecting the USA only.

[van-c]

But although I can understand backlogs,  I begin to see a red flag when a manufacturer repeatedly fails to meet already-promised distributor commitments within a reasonable time span.

I think you're being a little paranoid. Everyone knows the -S version is coming out shortly (if not already on sale in China) - so it's quite possible that backlogs/delays are connected to that.

...and serious, unfixed bugs

What might those be? There are no serious bugs - and just one rather annoying one.

...and we see a very unclear picture of where Rigol is taking this product.

I'm not sure I follow. The DS2000 is very successful - so Rigol is coming out with an enhanced version with built-in AWG (the -S model) to broaden the line.

I'm not paranoid at all.  Just cautious.  Uncontrolled distribution delays, even in the wake of new product launches, is not a very positive sign.  If it's just a NA problem, even more reason for me to be concerned.

I consider the very security flaws that have been successfully exploited to be serious.  Workers may have paid with their jobs over these.  The anti-aliasing bug-- okay, you consider it an annoyance but others might consider it a serious bug.  Or maybe it's the bug that wipes out the trial options when the scope is calibrated that is the annoyance.  I consider these serious QA and support weaknesses when contemplating purchase of the product.

I have researched the technical features of the DS2072 and am sold on it from a technical standpoint.  But as one who has not yet had the opportunity to use the DS2072, which is obviously successful, I am concerned about how well this model will be supported by the manufacturer going forward: the timeliness of customer support, bug fixes, product updates, response to customer feedback, etc.  From comments made on this forum, and based on my personal experience with shipping delays, I'm not sure how important this version of the product is to Rigol.  That is why I want to take a wait-and-see stance, although, essentially, that decision has already been made for me.

[marmad]

I consider the very security flaws that have been successfully exploited to be serious.

You consider it a serious bug that some owners are willing to void their warranty and attach wires to the FRAM and manipulate the contents in order to reset the minutes on their trial options? IMO, I don't really consider that a serious failing on Rigol's part.

The anti-aliasing bug-- okay, you consider it an annoyance but others might consider it a serious bug.

I consider it an as-yet-unimplemented feature - it just shouldn't be in the menus. I wouldn't mind having it, but it's not very important when you have a DSO with 56MB of memory that can sample at the full 2GSa/s down to 2ms/div. IMO, much better not to have it at all than it have it ON all the time as the Agilent X DSOs do.

Or maybe it's the bug that wipes out the trial options when the scope is calibrated that is the annoyance.

As mentioned in the bug list (first page), the latest FW version allows you to self-calibrate once without losing options - which should be enough for the 36 hour trial period.

I am concerned about how well this model will be supported by the manufacturer going forward: the timeliness of customer support, bug fixes, product updates, response to customer feedback, etc.

Badly - exactly the same as ALL Rigol products. That is the rub with Rigol - great products; great prices; crappy support. That hasn't changed yet - but perhaps some day. The alternative is to spend more for an Agilent - and get less bang-for-buck - but better support.

[Harvs]

From the perspective of someone who bought this scope for personal use (i.e. not like a business spending 10k+ on a critical tool), my personal belief is people a making too much of the support aspects.  The types of phrases being used are what I'd use if I was looking to buy a car, where you're reliant on the manufacturer and its dealerships for on-going support and spares as things wear out.

Where as, I've bought an awesome scope for the money, just as I did with the DS1000 I bought many years ago.  If Rigol said tomorrow that they weren't going to release any more firmware and and they were stopping production of the model, would I really care?  Well it would be nice to have the measurement display anomaly cleared up, but other than that, no not really. I've got a warrentee (well I did) with a reputable Australian company that has to honor it under Australian law, and it's not like I'm expecting to have to go buy parts for it any time soon.  I'm not hanging out for major bug fixes, and it's an awesome scope for the $$$ as it is right now.  We've got an awesome user base on this forum that has proven to provide detailed responses to questions in a very timely manner that most manufacturers couldn't hope to match.

[Wim13]

I wish they did a 4 channel version of the DS2000. The 4000 series is rather expensive so there is nothing to compete with Agilent's 4 channel 2000X scopes.

Better buy a cheap Wishing Well

[Marc M.]

...No function generators in stock except for a few models of the DG5000 (no 1000's, or 4000's)...

I ordered a DG4162 on June 17th from Tequipment and much to my surprise the tentative shipping date is August 7th  .  I also planned on purchasing a DS2202 but still haven't gotten a reply to my PM here to Tequipment regarding the EEVblog discount  .  In addition, I e-mailed Rick @ Tequipment directly on June 19th when I found out they were out of stock until August about the possibility of changing the order from the generator to a scope and haven't gotten a reply from him either  .  I expect poor customer service from Rigol, but certainly not from Tequipment .

If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.

And finally, a special thank you goes out to Marmad and the other ingenious folks who have put so much time and effort into exploring the full potential of these scopes .  All your efforts are greatly appreciated by countless members here and elsewhere.

Marc - 

[Corporate666]

Well, I just talked to TEquipment and they told me there are none in the USA and it is going to be a while before any come.  I asked how long "a while" is and they told me at least 4-6 weeks.  I asked if there are any at Rigol and if they were sitting there waiting for a firmware update or something, and he said nope - they have been in constant contact w/Rigol and there just aren't any in the USA - not at Rigol and not at any other distributors.  None, zero, zip, and none have come in for quite a while.

I am of the opinion that there is most definitely a production problem at Rigol.  I don't believe they are incapable of making any of their products and sending them to the USA for months at a time.   And it's not just the scopes either - it's everything.  Almost nothing they make is in stock anywhere in the USA.

[dr.diesel]

If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.

I don't believe there is a code, it's done on a case by case basis.  The stuff I've bought via EEV was a hard quote each time with no discount code.

[Corporate666]

...No function generators in stock except for a few models of the DG5000 (no 1000's, or 4000's)...

I ordered a DG4162 on June 17th from Tequipment and much to my surprise the tentative shipping date is August 7th  .  I also planned on purchasing a DS2202 but still haven't gotten a reply to my PM here to Tequipment regarding the EEVblog discount  .  In addition, I e-mailed Rick @ Tequipment directly on June 19th when I found out they were out of stock until August about the possibility of changing the order from the generator to a scope and haven't gotten a reply from him either  .  I expect poor customer service from Rigol, but certainly not from Tequipment .

If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.

And finally, a special thank you goes out to Marmad and the other ingenious folks who have put so much time and effort into exploring the full potential of these scopes .  All your efforts are greatly appreciated by countless members here and elsewhere.

Marc -

It was Rick I just talked to @ TE.  I had asked if he was the guy who is on EEVBlog and he said generally no, so if you PM'ed him then I don't think he comes to the site too much... I wouldn't hold it against them, I don't think the EEVBlog is an official support channel for them.

Anyway, I had just ordered on their website and then did a live chat with Dawn who was happy to apply the EEVBlog discount for me, so you don't need to use a code, just either place the order by phone, or request a quote, or place it online and then do a live-chat and ask them to apply the discount - they were happy to do so for me.

[Marc M.]

It was Rick I just talked to @ TE.  I had asked if he was the guy who is on EEVBlog and he said generally no, so if you PM'ed him then I don't think he comes to the site too much... I wouldn't hold it against them, I don't think the EEVBlog is an official support channel for them...

666, He's not the person that made the offer here on EEVblog.  I dealt with Rick when I purchased a DSA815-TG so he's the person I originally e-mailed.  My only issue with Rick is the lack of any response from him to my e-mail. Thanks for relaying your experience.
 

The Tequipment representative that offered the special EEVblog discount was Evan offered in this thread from the General Discussion:

I will set up a coupon code today to give a flat discount.  Its a bit complicated as some manufactures have a min sale price that we cannot go below that applies to certain items and with our current back end its not as sophisticated we would like.

Its also possible we can do better than this flat discount.. sometimes there is margin and sometimes there is not.  It depends on the brand or item.  Sometimes a quote is better but I think the flat discount would work for most items.

PM me for the code.  It was set up as I typed this.  This would also work on all clearance.  We are moving a bunch of items out below cost right now.

Thanks for the business,

Evan Cirelli
Co-owner of TEquipment.NET

This thread was who/why I sent the PM to them.  In my book, if it takes any company more than a week to respond to an customer, it amounts to poor customer service.  I followed their instructions as outlined above without any success (so far).  I'll try the RFQ process and hopefully, they'll be a little more responsive thru that channel. 
Marc -

[Galaxyrise]

Turning on anti aliasing does not change anything, only the brightness.

As part of How Thick is Your Baselne on Your Digital Oscilloscope?, I learned more about what anti-alias is doing.  We already knew it was a sample->display thing, but here's an example where it actually fixes up waveform aliasing.  These are all the same part of the same capture. 500uV/div, displaying dots, peak acquire (though it happens with Normal as well).  You can see the first makes it look like the noise is restricted to two horizontal bands, but switching to a shorter time base makes that effect disapper--it was an aliasing artifact! The third returns to the original timebase but enables Anti-Alias.

[Galaxyrise]

The anti-aliasing bug-- okay, you consider it an annoyance but others might consider it a serious bug.

It's almost certainly working as intended.  I wouldn't call it a bug, but it is deceptive.

I found Hi Res to be even worse: Putting "High Resolution" in the sample section of the datasheet (and the acquire menu of the scope) is pretty much a lie, especially if other scopes actually implement it at signal->sample time.  The thing is, I would have been fine if Hi Res and Anti-Alias were billed as display filters.  But instead I feel misled.

[marmad]

We already knew it was a sample->display thing, but here's an example where it actually fixes up waveform aliasing.

This is not fixing WAVEFORM aliasing - it's doing something with IMAGE aliasing. The anti-aliasing is a non-functioning/wrongly-implemented feature on the DS2000. There have already been many posts about this.

I found Hi Res to be even worse: Putting "High Resolution" in the sample section of the datasheet (and the acquire menu of the scope) is pretty much a lie, especially if other scopes actually implement it at signal->sample time.

ALL DSOs with High-Res implement it the same way, and I suspect that if you look at Agilent documents, you'd see it listed in the same way (although I haven't checked).

[rf-loop]

I found Hi Res to be even worse: Putting "High Resolution" in the sample section of the datasheet (and the acquire menu of the scope) is pretty much a lie, especially if other scopes actually implement it at signal->sample time.

Tektronix acquisition modes  in acq menu.

The digitizing oscilloscope supports five acquisition modes.


Sample

Peak Detect

Hi Res

Envelope

Average

HighRes is acquisition mode - exactly.

Tell to Tektronix they have done it wrong. It is more like they have defined world of oscilloscpes (in history) and others have then followed....

Btw, it is also good to understand what is High Res mode, how it works.

[marmad]

HighRes is acquisition mode - exactly.

Tell to Tektronix they have done it wrong. It is more like they have defined world of oscilloscpes (in history) and others have then followed....

Btw, it is also good to understand what is High Res mode, how it works.

Galaxyrise was referring to the way it's listed in Rigol's specifications, but you're absolutely right. If you look at the DS2000 specs, it lists High-Resolution with the other Acquire modes (Peak Detect, Averaging, etc) and of course, they assume you understand how it works (just as Agilent assumes it in their X-Series datasheets - just checked them). The true Vertical Resolution (8-bit) is listed in the Vertical section. So I don't think Rigol can be accused of any kind of lying or misleading.

[marmad]

It's almost certainly working as intended.  I wouldn't call it a bug, but it is deceptive.

Just to elaborate: the way that the DSO SHOULD be implementing anti-aliasing is with oversampling which is then randomly decimated before display to avoid the appearance of a false low frequency component - or if the sample length is already deep, just random decimation when displayed.

[Galaxyrise]

Just to elaborate: the way that the DSO SHOULD be implementing anti-aliasing is with oversampling which is then randomly decimated before display to avoid the appearance of a false low frequency component - or if the sample length is already deep, just random decimation when displayed.

Right, we're agreeing with each other.  I'm saying the DS2000 seems to do the second part; it does sample->display randomization or something similar.  But it doesn't do the much more important signal->sample randomization.

[Galaxyrise]

Tell to Tektronix they have done it wrong. It is more like they have defined world of oscilloscpes (in history) and others have then followed....

All I've found from Tek so far is "In hi-res mode, the data is significantly oversampled, and then a boxcar average is performed in acquisition hardware to real-time average".  This implies to me that the averaging happens before data is written to sample memory, but it's still a little vague.

From reading this Agilent app note,  they state the ADC in their example is reading 20GSa/s but the waveform is 2.5GSa/s.  That sounds like what I was expecting: averaging in acquisition. 

This is not what the Rigol does. I don't think the DS2000 can oversample; that if the Rigol ADC is making 2G readings/s, then it's writing 2Gsa/s to sample memory.  Rigol's High Resolution averaging happens when displaying the sample memory. This is how Rigol achieves 2GSa/s, by moving everything to sample memory post-processing.

Rigol is approximating features of the big boy scopes, so they named them the same and put them in the same place... but they're not the same! And their approximation of Anti-Alias is nearly useless since their "vectors" algorithm already does a decent job preventing sample->display waveform aliasing. Calling them the same thing is definitely deceptive.

[Wim13]

I know the meaning of AC and DC coupling for the Signal input
But is the function of AC and DC coupling on the Trigger settings independent of the Channel signal coupling on the DS2000?

What happens with the Signal DC coupled, and Trigger AC coupled?

What happens with the Signal AC coupled, and Trigger DC coupled?

With the Trigger set to AC coupling;
the Trigger level (edge) varies with the trigger level knob, (orange voltage value)
but there is No orange Line --------------------.
Is that because the triggering subsystem cannot know the absolute DC level to put the line on the Display? 

Am I explaining that OK.

Trigger on AC removes the DC component, example:

DC +10 Volt + sinus 1 Vtt,  then trigger level is about +10 volt at DC
lot of turning the trigger knob to 10 volts

if you turn trigger to AC, the trigger will trigger at 0 Volt, removing the DC component of 10 Volts.
you can turn trigger on and push the trigger button for 0 Volt.

So in AC mode the trigger signal is not the same level anymore as the displayed signal.
The DSO of course does not know the difference of the AC + DC componont of the signal, so
the trigger in AC mode does not know where the desired trigger level is on the screen. And the
orange line is meaningless.

[marmad]

Right, we're agreeing with each other.  I'm saying the DS2000 seems to do the second part; it does sample->display randomization or something similar.  But it doesn't do the much more important signal->sample randomization.

No, we are not agreeing with each other. As far as my tests show, the Rigol does NOT do anything similar to what I mentioned at all.

This is not what the Rigol does. I don't think the DS2000 can oversample; that if the Rigol ADC is making 2G readings/s, then it's writing 2Gsa/s to sample memory.  Rigol's High Resolution averaging happens when displaying the sample memory. This is how Rigol achieves 2GSa/s, by moving everything to sample memory post-processing.

Rigol is approximating features of the big boy scopes, so they named them the same and put them in the same place... but they're not the same! And their approximation of Anti-Alias is nearly useless since their "vectors" algorithm already does a decent job preventing sample->display waveform aliasing. Calling them the same thing is definitely deceptive.

Sorry, man, but it seems as if you don't completely understand high-res or anti-aliasing.

Vectors on the Rigol don't do a damn thing towards preventing aliasing - as evidenced by many images already posted here. If you think they do, post an image which demonstrates this. Their Anti-Aliasing does NOT work - and is either a bug, unimplemented feature, or mistake.

But their High-Res works fine:

1) It's not approximating anything - it's doing High-Res PERFECTLY correctly. It's just math - whether you do it while sampling or after-the-fact - it doesn't make a bit of difference. No low cost DSO samples faster than their max. sample rate - they reduce the effective sample rate (and bandwidth) to deliver the simulated bits of resolution (see attached chart from Agilent 2000X manual). BTW, the Agilent is ALWAYS sampling at 2GSa/s - it just throws out samples instead of actually reducing the rate. And when you ask it to do High-Res, it just averages the samples it would have thrown away otherwise.

2) It's preferable to have post-processing done on data being moved to display memory - because then the sample memory contains the ORIGINAL samples! Which is want I want - I don't want already processed samples in memory! Why on Earth would you think that's better? I can always average the original samples again any time.

[Wim13]

What happens with the Signal AC coupled, and Trigger DC coupled?
What happens with the Signal AC coupled, and Trigger AC coupled?

So in AC mode the trigger signal is not the same level anymore as the displayed signal.
The DSO of course does not know the difference of the AC + DC componont of the signal, so
the trigger in AC mode does not know where the desired trigger level is on the screen. And the orange line is meaningless.

Well I tried  modes with and input signal  = a 1 Vpp Sin with 0.5 Vdc offset

when the DS2072 is   Chan 1 AC coupled
                       and  Trigger Setting is set to DC coupled
ACTs the Same as
                              Chan 1 AC coupled
                      and   Trigger Setting is set to AC coupled

So why not show the orange line!!

Because it is not the same.....

If trigger mode in in DC, there is a relation with the showed grid on the display ( not the displayed signal )
so the DSO can display a orange line.

If trigger on DC and is on 1 volt, there is a relation with 1 volt on the screen.

But in AC mode there is NO relation the the value next to the displayed grid
and the DSO does not now where to disply the line, so it does not.

In AC trigger mode 1 volt can be anywhere on the screen.

[marmad]

"Aliasing is a potential problem in the DSO (Digitizing Storage Oscilloscope): the undersampled, high frequency component assumes the alias (or false identity) of a spurious, low frequency component."

In other words, if the sample rate isn't fast enough, high-frequency components can “fold down” into a lower frequency, causing aliasing in the display.

[marmad]

First image is an incorrect display of a 1MHz sine wave @ 5ms/div undersampled at 200kSa/s - causing aliasing (even though anti-aliasing is turned ON).
Second image is a correct display of a 1MHz sine wave @ 5ms/div sampled at 500MSa/s (by increasing the sample length to 56M) - causing no anti-aliasing.

[Marc M.]

I'll try the RFQ process and hopefully, they'll be a little more responsive thru that channel.

I submitted the RFQ this morning and they responded about 4 hours later, including the EEV discount and free shipping .  When I tried to pay via PayPal, I was charged shipping.  I did an online chat w/ Dawn and she refunded the shipping back thru PayPal.  In addition, she was able to apply the discount to the DG4162 I purchased earlier in the month prior to learning about Evan's very generous offer.  So while their customer service is lacking thru indirect channels, it's outstanding thru the Quote and Live Chat channels  .  FWIW, they're estimating the lead time to be 2-3 weeks.  Sounds a bit optimistic but time will tell.

[Wim13]

when the DS2072 is Chan 1 AC coupled and Trigger Setting is set to DC coupled
ACTs the Same as   Chan 1 AC coupled and Trigger Setting is set to AC coupled
So why not show the orange line!!

Because it is not the same.....
If trigger mode is in DC, there is a relation with the showed grid on the display ( not the displayed signal )so the DSO can display a orange line.
If trigger on DC and is on 1 volt, there is a relation with 1 volt on the screen.
But in AC mode there is NO relation the the value next to the displayed grid
and the DSO does not now where to display the line, so it does not.
In AC trigger mode 1 volt can be anywhere on the screen.

Does this go back to old Scope devices,
because I would think this DS2000 can determine the trigger value that is used to set the position on the display ,
thus show the trigger level line
Below are 4 displays , (note trigger level in low left corner)
  1.  Input DC coupled  with  trigger DC coupled
  2.  Input DC coupled  with  trigger AC coupled  (no trigger line)
  3.  Input AC coupled  with  trigger DC coupled
  4.  Input AC coupled  with  trigger AC coupled  (no trigger line)

What is the Difference between 3 & 4?
Just my small preference

The difference is about 100 mV

In picture 3 trigger level is DC+AC, in picture 4 trigger level is AC
if the DC component is 0 or very small, then DC+AC=AC, thats why there is little difference.

More theory:

In DC trigger mode the trigger is fixed, even with no input, the level is fixed and kown.

In AC trigger mode the trigger is dynamic, trigger level is depeding of average AC signal, so not fixed
and its position is not kown.

If in AC trigger mode you change the shape of the waveform, the trigger point will shift, how do you want
this in an orange line on the screen, it will be not steady.

In AC trigger mode the average value of the AC voltage is the 0, this is the reference for the trigger, from there it calculating
the offset. Not from a fixed point.