Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes

[luciof]

I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.

[tautech]

I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.

Can be if you have the Acquire menu visible when the screenshot is taken.

For deep record of how these are configured you can also save a Setup to USB as Siglent recently asked me to do when working through an issue we were having with a new instrument.
Upon them receiving it and uploading it into their instrument my settings were replicated.

[luciof]

Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

B) Probe attenuation settings is more involved than needed. The procedure to change from 10x to 1x is:
............

It doesn't need to be.
If starting at 1x (Factory Default), select channel and on P1 is the input attenuation menu that you can just keep tapping the button to increment to the correct attenuation needed.
When checking, channel assigning and compensating probes for every scope you sell you get pretty darn quick at this. 

Well, I'm not sure I fully understood your reply. After assigning a probe to each channel and compensating it, I'm done (this is a one-time operation). But then, while using the scope, I often need to change the Attenuation Factor many times.
Example: I'm probing at 10x, then enter Bode Plot using BNC 50 ohm cables etc. for impedance matching, start plotting and see an unexpected 20 dB deviation. Oops... Exit BP, then change from 10x to 1x each involved channel (this require the full 6-point procedure, no shortcuts; going from 10x to 1x requires the knob, because repeated tapping is way too long: the 20 items list can only be scrolled downwards with the button).
Another frequent case: working on low frequency, low voltage circuits is often convenient to switch the probes from 1x to 10x or viceversa (or even using DVM leads thru a BNC-banana adapter), but i like keeping the right amplitude readouts, so to avoid trivial mistakes and/or for taking proper screenshots; so, the correct Attenuator Factor settings are preferred and it would be nice to be able to select them as quickly and simply as possible (IMHO, this is not the case right now).
Of course, this can be done anyway, but a faster (and maybe more... clean?) procedure would help to not disrupt the workflow when deeply focused on a problem.

I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.

Can be if you have the Acquire menu visible when the screenshot is taken.

For deep record of how these are configured you can also save a Setup to USB as Siglent recently asked me to do when working through an issue we were having with a new instrument.
Upon them receiving it and uploading it into their instrument my settings were replicated.

Of course leaving the Acquire menu visible would give the info, but showing the acquisition mode flags on the screen IMO would be a better choice. I don't need to remember to show the Acquire menu, or may decide to clear the menu to make some more room.
Saving the settings is a very good thing, but I don't think this is the best use of them; moreover, after saving a few ones it's easy to forget their use (unless I write an annotated list. Being able to rename the saved setups would help).

I understand that these are minor improvements but I'm convinced they would be useful with a quite low implementation cost (I know, it looks like I'm a bit obsessed about the probe attenuation...).

A side note.
I purchased the SDS1104X-E to compliment an old LeCroy (4ch, 1GHz, 8 GSa/s, 16 Mpts, excellent analog front-end and a good assortment of passive, active, current and differential probes). But the device is very heavy and takeoff-like noisy, so I'd like to have a modern unit with lesser features but more handy (and it is). I also have handheld Fluke (100MHz) and Agilent (200 MHz, which I don't like). Good for field work (rare for me) and great for their isolated channels, but again the SDS fits most of my needs better (and, TBH, should it blow up, I'd cry for less time, so a little less concerns when touching higher voltages).
Actually I had also considered the SDS2104X-HD, but for its kind of price I chose not to take the risk: I had a previous bad experience with another cheap CN scope (a "known" firm I won't disclose) having good features on paper but a PITA to use. Based on my brief positive experience with this Siglent scope, probably I would have opted for the SDS2k HD (ok, maybe I would have thought about it a little longer, given the almost 6x price).

[Performa01]

Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

First of all, it’s always welcome when competent folks express their criticism and suggestions. This kind of feedback has helped Siglent to improve their products in the past and still does so today.

That having said, there have been tons of complaints and requests over the years, coming from folks with vastly different backgrounds. Not all of them really equitable or even realistic. In your case, your background appears to be an older midrange scope from LeCroy, which is a lucky incident as there is a strong relationship between LeCroy and Siglent. Nevertheless, Siglent have never tried to copy LeCroy, but of course they have a major influence. It is difficult for entry level products though, since LeCroy don’t make anything below upper midrange themselves…

To cut a long story short, we do have no shortage on complaints, wishes and suggestions. Many of them have become reality with time, but certainly not all of them. There are conflicting requests – one user dislikes exactly the one feature that another user has strongly requested – or also unrealistic requests, like expecting high-end features (not found anywhere else) in a cheap entry level device.

I have dealt with the SDS1000X-E series extensively a couple years ago, but then concentrated on the much more exciting touch-screen siblings SDS5000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS6000A, SDS 2000X HD. So because of space restrictions, I have no SDS1000X-E at hand right now and will only comment on some basic considerations…

A) Measure with statistics on: counts and statistic values should be automatically reset when changing time base or channel gain, without the need to press Clear Sweeps every time. Otherwise the shown statistics would be meaningless and possibly misleading.

Conflicting request. There was a time, where it has been exactly the way as you describe. But that is not the correct behavior – the measurements do not change just because we alter the sensitivity or the timebase. A 1 MHz, 1 Vpp signal is still a 1 MHz, 1 Vpp signal, whether we look at it at 200 mV/div vertical gain and 500 ns/div timebase or 1 V/div and 1 ms/div. The majority of us hold the view that the user should be master and the scope is slave. So we, the users, decide when to clear the history or the statistics, whereas the scope should not clear anything whenever we touch a setting. When in doubt, it is easy to hit the [Clear Sweeps] button in order to reset the statistic. If on the other hand the history or statistics is destroyed by the scope because the firmware developer thought he knows better, then there is no button to bring it back.

C) Entering values with the GP knob often is quite complicated and error prone, and the knob press is not always reliable - but that is. Neverthless in many cases it would be helpful to assign the default value to a long press of the knob.

When I used these instruments, I always preferred multiple key presses over adjusting the universal control and instead of pushing the latter I always found some other (maybe even unused) menu knob to press and confirm a selection. We sometimes find something annoying, then we find a workaround, get used to it and all of a sudden it’s not that dramatic anymore.

I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.

How far do you want to take this? Current rendering (dots, lines) and reconstruction modes (x, sinc) aren’t shown either.

Where would you want to place this information? There is not a lot of spare space to place additional information.

Finally: have you looked at the screenshots of competing instruments? Could it be that the Siglent already shows more information than usual?

A side note.
I purchased the SDS1104X-E to compliment an old LeCroy (4ch, 1GHz, 8 GSa/s, 16 Mpts, excellent analog front-end and a good assortment of passive, active, current and differential probes). But the device is very heavy and takeoff-like noisy, so I'd like to have a modern unit with lesser features but more handy (and it is). I also have handheld Fluke (100MHz) and Agilent (200 MHz, which I don't like). Good for field work (rare for me) and great for their isolated channels, but again the SDS fits most of my needs better (and, TBH, should it blow up, I'd cry for less time, so a little less concerns when touching higher voltages).
Actually I had also considered the SDS2104X-HD, but for its kind of price I chose not to take the risk: I had a previous bad experience with another cheap CN scope (a "known" firm I won't disclose) having good features on paper but a PITA to use. Based on my brief positive experience with this Siglent scope, probably I would have opted for the SDS2k HD (ok, maybe I would have thought about it a little longer, given the almost 6x price).

Well, you got an excellent analog frontend again, even though it is now only 200 (235) MHz bandwidth. Of course, any bells and whistles like internal switchable 50 ohms signal path become available only with the 2000-series and auto Probe factor (only if probes support it!) starts with the SDS2000X Plus – all of which you cannot take for granted in competing 2000-series products.

In the light of this an SDS2000X Plus or HD would have been a whole different world. The touch-screen makes all the difference – but of course it’s bigger, heavier and much more expensive. But then again, the 1000X-E series is the only one that has a datalogger. Not really surprising, because everyone will dedicate their cheapest scope for long-term tasks like datalogging…

[robert.rozee]

just a crazy idea - has anyone thought of creating a small box with some switches on the front that connects to the scope via ethernet or USB and sends SCPI commands to do things like change probe attenuation settings in response to the user pressing the buttons?

while a proof-of-concept may be highly complicated, a 'final design' might be something as simple as a RPi single-board computer. if you could talk to the HTML API, it may even be possible to emulate turning knobs on the scope. and if commands could be sent to the scope application via the serial console (with a little soldering) the implemention could be as trivial as a arduino or similar.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[tautech]

just a crazy idea - has anyone thought of creating a small box with some switches on the front that connects to the scope via ethernet or USB and sends SCPI commands to do things like change probe attenuation settings in response to the user pressing the buttons?

while a proof-of-concept may be highly complicated, a 'final design' might be something as simple as a RPi single-board computer. if you could talk to the HTML API, it may even be possible to emulate turning knobs on the scope. and if commands could be sent to the scope application via the serial console (with a little soldering) the implemention could be as trivial as a arduino or similar.

cheers,
rob   :-)

Yours and luciof's comments have me thinking.......

Now it's entirely another thing if Siglent are listening and can afford to divert their programmers away from seemingly more important tasks but certainly there is some room for improvement and polish of the input attenuation menu.
These 4ch X-E's have a different channel menu structure than SDS1202X-E in that the 4ch departs into a deeper level of the menu just for setting input attenuation where in the screenshot below there's obviously room for a further 4 button selections which if Siglent did spend a little time we might have at least 3 or even 4 button push choices for attenuation setting rather than need to use the encoder for the most common input attenuation settings.

Based on simple deduction 1x, 10x and 100x would be the obvious choices for dedicated buttons and if another was to be considered what would it be ? 

For those that know this scope more than most maybe a fast access and previously saved User Custom setting ?

[tautech]

Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

B) Probe attenuation settings is more involved than needed. The procedure to change from 10x to 1x is:
............

It doesn't need to be.
If starting at 1x (Factory Default), select channel and on P1 is the input attenuation menu that you can just keep tapping the button to increment to the correct attenuation needed.
When checking, channel assigning and compensating probes for every scope you sell you get pretty darn quick at this. 

Well, I'm not sure I fully understood your reply. After assigning a probe to each channel and compensating it, I'm done (this is a one-time operation). But then, while using the scope, I often need to change the Attenuation Factor many times.
Example: I'm probing at 10x, then enter Bode Plot using BNC 50 ohm cables etc. for impedance matching, start plotting and see an unexpected 20 dB deviation. Oops... Exit BP, then change from 10x to 1x each involved channel (this require the full 6-point procedure, no shortcuts; going from 10x to 1x requires the knob, because repeated tapping is way too long: the 20 items list can only be scrolled downwards with the button).
Another frequent case: working on low frequency, low voltage circuits is often convenient to switch the probes from 1x to 10x or viceversa (or even using DVM leads thru a BNC-banana adapter), but i like keeping the right amplitude readouts, so to avoid trivial mistakes and/or for taking proper screenshots; so, the correct Attenuator Factor settings are preferred and it would be nice to be able to select them as quickly and simply as possible (IMHO, this is not the case right now).
Of course, this can be done anyway, but a faster (and maybe more... clean?) procedure would help to not disrupt the workflow when deeply focused on a problem.

As you may be aware I'm quite familiar with this scope however it never does any harm to spend a few minutes in front of one again with a open mind forgetting the familiarity you have with it and eyeballing it more critically.

IMO the current attenuation setting methodology suffers from the lack of an indented multipurpose encoder as it only lends itself to fast and precise operation with the use of both hands unlike increasing attenuation where one can advance down the menu list with just button presses.

However if using 2 hands instead of one the UI works well but when speed is required one hand must stay positioned near the encoder and on 3 fingers leaving the thumb and forefinger for operating and pressing the encoder.
As there are many uses for the encoder in this scope it's something that does require practice if for nothing other than to become competent in its use for the many virtual alphanumeric keyboards in this scope all implemented to negate the need for endless encoder rotation.

[tautech]

Actually I had also considered the SDS2104X-HD, but for its kind of price I chose not to take the risk: I had a previous bad experience with another cheap CN scope (a "known" firm I won't disclose) having good features on paper but a PITA to use. Based on my brief positive experience with this Siglent scope, probably I would have opted for the SDS2k HD (ok, maybe I would have thought about it a little longer, given the almost 6x price).

Yes the HD is a major step in outlay over these 4ch X-E's as is the X Plus but at $1400 they are a lot more palatable.
HD have a few more fruits as well as 12 bit over the X Plus but they have the 50 MHz inbuilt AWG and a special 10 bit mode of their own, albeit to just 100 MHz.

Anyways if you get the chance to have a play with a SDS2104X Plus do so as these really are a good step up from these great little X-E's as the X Plus touch, mouse and physical controls make for another level of user experience.

[luciof]

To cut a long story short, we do have no shortage on complaints, wishes and suggestions. Many of them have become reality with time, but certainly not all of them. There are conflicting requests – one user dislikes exactly the one feature that another user has strongly requested – or also unrealistic requests, like expecting high-end features (not found anywhere else) in a cheap entry level device.

Yes, I'm sure about that; plus, more features cause more complaints than cheers.
I'm aware that my views are somewhat biased, neverthless I think they deserve some thought even if not important enough to be implemented.

Regarding statistics: i know that changing H and V settings ideally should not matter, but in reality a single step in base time or gain would change things quite a bit (unless we have a very stable and clean waveform). But I admit this is more a matter of personal preference; resetting statistics after any change would help to not overlook a probable source of errors.

Instead, I'm convinced that a screenshot should include the current acquisition mode (a single symbol in the top line would be enough, better yet a few more characters to show the average count or ERES bits; this should be easily fitted). Different acquisition modes heavily impact waveform appearance without even being apparent, so they should be clearly marked somewhere.
IMO interpolation modes are less important because they are quite visible when  they matter (usually on very fast sweep settings).

Finally, I find data entry with the encoder a bit inconvenient (and sometimes frustrating), but I can't envise a really better method, so that is...
Maybe a small improvement would be to assign the default value (in its context) to a long press of the encoder.

[luciof]

Based on simple deduction 1x, 10x and 100x would be the obvious choices for dedicated buttons and if another was to be considered what would it be ? 

For those that know this scope more than most maybe a fast access and previously saved User Custom setting ?

Possible UI improvement:

the first picture is the usual channel settings page #1; pressing the SW button #4 (Probe xxx) the subpage is shown.
In the current UI only button #1 (Probe xxx) and button #6 (return) are populated.

Instead, according to the second picture, button #4 (the same one just pressed) is assigned to a "toggle 1x - 10x", which are by far the most used. Other buttons may be assigned to custom attenuation (same as Custom A, B, etc. from the drop list on button #1). Everyone can choose his most used settings and make them as default.

This way, I think that switching between 1x and 10x is the fastest possible: select channel page 1, then press two times the Probe button. That is.
Other (2 or 3) preferred values are also promptly available at the press of another button.

[tautech]

Thanks luciof
Siglent are pretty good listeners and putting good ideas to them often bear fruit but as the last firmware release was not long ago we may need to wait a while to see if any of our imaginings get incorporated into the next version.

That said we should leave it to other owners to also consider these possible improvements too and give them some time to provide further feedback for Siglent to digest.

[1audio]

I have a related suggestion. One of the limitations of all in one scopes is both the number of controls and the need for the controls to be colocated with the display. This was essential in the old days of analog scopes where the knob controlled switches mechanically. I would like to have a separate control on a cable that can be more conveniently located in the workspace. I got this gadget https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V95ZZLM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  initially to provide a volume control for my monitor. I'm not a fan of buttons for volume. Looking at it I think software could be crafted to use it to control the attenuators and timebase pretty easily since they are all software controlled.

[tautech]

I have a related suggestion. One of the limitations of all in one scopes is both the number of controls and the need for the controls to be colocated with the display. This was essential in the old days of analog scopes where the knob controlled switches mechanically. I would like to have a separate control on a cable that can be more conveniently located in the workspace. I got this gadget https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V95ZZLM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  initially to provide a volume control for my monitor. I'm not a fan of buttons for volume. Looking at it I think software could be crafted to use it to control the attenuators and timebase pretty easily since they are all software controlled.

Not that I'm a coder in any way or form  however what you propose is a novel idea and with a little code crafting to use the Siglent SCPI command set that little box could certainly be used in conjunction with a PC to push the SCPI commands into the scope to enable basic operation, basic being the key word.
However I doubt very much Siglent would invest time in such a concept that only was to provide basic use of their extremely capable and biggest selling DSO.

Still, creative ideas fuel the mind. 

[1audio]

I would find it useful for troubleshooting. For a USB scope it might be really useful since a mouse and keyboard leave no hands for probes.

[Calambres]

I too find the current probe attenuation settings to be unnecessarily cumbersome.

Based on simple deduction 1x, 10x and 100x would be the obvious choices for dedicated buttons and if another was to be considered what would it be ? 

Yes!... there are 4 free slots that could be your three proposals and another, let's say, Custom1 setting as was suggested previously. That would be much easier to operate and, in case you need another more unusual setting, go to the first (and current) selection button.

Luciof's suggestion is also very good!

[rf-loop]

Due to fact that 1x 10x change is most typical in normal common use. All others are much more rare if look all users commonly.

I think this example would work quite well as a quick setup. No need do more sophisticated and complex. Poor and simple but works for "99.97%" of  use cases.

[tautech]

Due to fact that 1x 10x change is most typical in normal common use. All others are much more rare if look all users commonly.

I think this example would work quite well as a quick setup. No need do more sophisticated and complex. Poor and simple but works for "99.97%" of  use cases.

Certainly any simple and elegant remedy is welcomed.
Now it just need be applied to:
SDS1202X-E
SDS1*04X-E
SDS1104X-U
SDS2**2X-E
SHS1000X
SHS800X
DL+ and CML+ ?
 

[Performa01]

To cut a long story short, we do have no shortage on complaints, wishes and suggestions. Many of them have become reality with time, but certainly not all of them. There are conflicting requests – one user dislikes exactly the one feature that another user has strongly requested – or also unrealistic requests, like expecting high-end features (not found anywhere else) in a cheap entry level device.

Yes, I'm sure about that; plus, more features cause more complaints than cheers.
I'm aware that my views are somewhat biased, neverthless I think they deserve some thought even if not important enough to be implemented.

Rest assured that your input will not be discarded unseen.

As you can see, some folks already think about improving the probe factor selection and I might make a proposal for showing the acquisition mode - which isn't as straight forward as you think, because if it should be implemented, then we need a solution not only for the low end SDS1000X-E but also the touch screen instruments, whose UI looks completely different. And in both cases, there is not much space. The SDS1000X-E for example has to show the main and zoom timebase together with the AWG settings in the top line already, barely leaving any space for additional information. In the past some thought there is still space left in the side menu, but no, this is used up by the MSO extension, so when considering such things, we cannot avoid looking over the fence a bit.

[Performa01]

Actually, it turns out that Siglent is listening in advance and implemented the display of the acquisition mode already in the SDS2000X HD, at least starting with FW 1.2.1.0 - see attached screenshot.

Consequently, we can expect this feature to become available on all touchscreen DSOs sooner or later.

All there's left to do is to ask Siglent quite nicely and innocently if there are plans to make this available on the non-touch scopes as well...

[tautech]

After some checks for a friend that required 'must have file timestamps' for portable use where a LAN or WiFi connection may not be available for the NTP time server Manual Sync or Sync on boot the not so plainly obvious solution needed be checked before advise could be offered

So simple......everyone has a smartphone right ?

Set phone Personal Hotspot to ON and using a TP Link TL-WN725N USB WiFi dongle connected to the scope set the scopes I/O to WLAN and in WiFi Settings search for your phones WiFi ID, select it and enter its PW from the phones tethering app then hit Connect in the scopes WiFi Set menu to get a internet connection via your phones data package.

Your scope must have the correct time location setting and a local NTP server IP address entered and saved in the Time feature in Utility menus.
In my tests it manually Synced instantly and auto Synced flawlessly at boot when WiFi tethered to an iPhone 6 with a valid data package. 

Really it was pretty straightforward and another neat little trick these scopes are capable of. 

[Muttley Snickers]

After some checks for a friend that required 'must have file timestamps' for portable use where a LAN or WiFi connection may not be available for the NTP time server Manual Sync or Sync on boot the not so plainly obvious solution needed be checked before advise could be offered.

So simple......everyone has a smartphone right ?

Sounds like more of a fiend than a friend.   

Anyway, in the method described above you are still connecting to the NTP server to synchronise the time no different than if you were using a wired or wireless internet connection. To my understanding the SDS-1104XE does not have an onboard real time clock yet has a menu to enter the current date and time, perhaps yours friends question was does the unit increment time once it is set in a stand alone application without any form of internet connection? 

The video below shows how to set the time, apply time stamps and configure the NTP server but no mention of whether the clock is maintained during that power cycle, I am aware that the time and date will be reset on the next reboot. Also, page 39 of this thread has some good information about the RTC.

[tautech]

After some checks for a friend that required 'must have file timestamps' for portable use where a LAN or WiFi connection may not be available for the NTP time server Manual Sync or Sync on boot the not so plainly obvious solution needed be checked before advise could be offered.

So simple......everyone has a smartphone right ?

Sounds like more of a fiend than a friend.   

Anyway, in the method described above you are still connecting to the NTP server to synchronize the time no different than if you were using a wired or wireless internet connection. To my understanding the SDS-1104XE does not have an onboard real time clock yet has a menu to enter the current date and time, perhaps yours friends question was does the unit increment time once it is set in a stand alone application without any form of internet connection? 

Gotcha !
I'll double check this for the fiend today or tomorrow.

[tautech]

Especially for that friend fiend:

Further NTP clock investigations.
I found a bug in that the most forward year that can be set is 2037 when cheekily attempting to set it to 2525 if man is still alive.....
Default date is 1970 when some of you weren't even a glint in your fathers eye. 

BS aside, the following screenshots show a 2037 date set with the clock advancing without an internet connection.
The following 2 show after a reboot the time/date is lost and the default 1970 time advances.

Here there certainly is a chance 2 screenshots at entirely different dates could indeed end up with the exact same timestamp and without notes taken the only way to distinguish them would be different filenames applied within the Save/Recall menu or the incrementing filename when saved to the same media.

Interestingly in W10 File Explorer Details view PNG2 properties does show the set date 1 ‎January ‎2037, ‏‎1:02:02 am whereas PNG's 3 and 4 with a default 1970 date after reboot reveal a ‎Tuesday, ‎1 ‎January ‎1980, ‏‎1:00:00 am timestamp deep in their file properties.

With luck this further info will satisfy the fiend.

[Fungus]

I found a bug in that the most forward year that can be set is 2037

...the default 1970 time.

If it's Unix time you should be able to go as far as 19 January 2038

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time

[Calambres]

Hi, folks!

I'm facing something that's bugging me big time and it's the "view order preference" between normal channel waves and REF waves. I'm reading a 1MHZ to 15MHz sweep that I want to compare with another more low freq. 150KHz wave. If I save the first sweep into REF1 but being a "solid" wave as it is at 10ms, I cannot see any other wave on top of it to compare.

It seems that all other waves are displayed "behind" the REF and thus, impossible to see in this case. Is there a way to tell the scope to put the normal channels on top of the REF to be able to see anything?

This is the resulting image:



...and this is what lies invisible behind once I turn off REF1: