Author Topic: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'  (Read 181901 times)

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #725 on: March 30, 2019, 06:00:50 pm »
I'm not going to bother quoting/replying to the people that have disparaged my/Mechatrommer comments. You know who you are. If you still don't understand, than just wait a bit. This technology will eventually be on passenger aircraft.

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Commercial aircrafts don't have this luxury. They have to perform reliably under all conditions, including constant climbing/descending and loss of GPS reception.

They also have to perform reliably in case of flying through a storm cloud at high altitude and the pitot tube freezing.

There seems to be no downside to having a backup to the things already on the plane. An accelerometer and gyroscope can only tell relative changes to pitch and speed, and it will go farther and farther out of calibration over time. But if it is KEPT in calibration with other sensor information, it could continue giving accurate readings for some duration of time AFTER those sensors go out. The only thing is can't account for is the direction and speed of the wind. If updated with averages generated from GPS, pitch, and changes in elevation over time, it could be kept in the right ballpark, perhaps indefinitely, even, without a traditional airspeed indicator.

Air speed is the cosign of AOA times vector speed, plus or minus the effect of local wind speed. Except for the wind speed*, everything else is available to the gyro and accelerometer and a computer/microcontroller. Or GPS, pitch, and altitude over time. Any one sensor that is missing, that info could be calculated, accurately, in real time, by the remaining sensors. ASI or AOA, just as examples. And even a gyroscope and accelerometer is more prone to certain problems and failures and inaccuracies, the failure modes are at leastr different than the failure mode of , say, pitot tubes (icing).

Heck, in the future, pilots might have a video display showing a depiction of a plane at its current pitch and with the various speeds and vectors drawn out in proportionally sized and angled arrows in real time. It could show true vector angle and vector speed (the actual speed and direction of the plane, which would be the "biggest number"), air speed (or velocity in the nose-tail axis, plus or minus windspeed correction), it would even show the "down speed" perpendicular to the airspeed, in addition to the true up/down velocity of the plane (up/down current velocity, as opposed to just vertical position/altitude). The AOA would be the angle between vector velocity and airspeed velocity.

The larger and more smooth/stable planes get (even in a stall, some of these planes can feel relatively smooth and stable), the more something like this could be useful to tell the pilot what the plane is doing in low/no visibility conditions (planes fly through clouds and storms and on moonless nights over the ocean, among other things), rather than trying to make sense of a bunch of numbers and values and forming a more abstract picture when/where there is precious little time and the pilots are working under some level of panic or confusion, and they are obviously not (in some cases) coming up with the right conclusions. A stall warning is just a single word (or a stick vibration). A picture is worth a thousand words. When the autopilot cuts out with no warning during a 10 hour flight during zero visibility and high turbulence, things can go out of whack in a hurry. The pilot's mind might have been on something else when he is suddenly handed the plane.

*Wind speed is obviously very important, but some picture is better than none. With high accuracy weather radar, perhaps some decent approximation of local wind can also be included for correction.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 07:13:52 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #726 on: March 30, 2019, 06:35:09 pm »
All the focus is on the MCAS algorithm, and I hope the AoA sensor failures are investigated. Failing immediately or after a few minutes in the air, I wonder what's going on there.

This new Boeing screen sucks, the AoA DISAGREE annunciator is at the bottom, AoA gauge at the top, and not sure where the second or which AoA sensor is driving the gauge. What does the gauge do when there is a discrepancy? Please add more confusion.

It violates good user interface design by not keeping related information in one spot. WTF RADIO and Barometric Pressure is next to it  :palm:
 

Online soldar

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #727 on: March 30, 2019, 07:22:19 pm »
Another report

“EVERTHING about the design and manufacture of the MAX was done to preserve the myth that ‘it’s just a 737.’
Re-certifying it as a new aircraft would have taken years and millions of dollars.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1249KS8xtIDKb5SxgpeFI6AD-PSC6nFA5/view
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #728 on: March 30, 2019, 07:31:32 pm »
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and millions of dollars.
Yup. actually, billions were at stake. Each plane they sell is hundreds of millions, and I'm sure the margins are huge. As well the research costs and liability are huge on the other side. Either you make a bank or you lose a bank. Mere "millions" is just the interest on their loans.

With the success of the Neo, Boeing was facing the prospect of losing massive market share. The news has insinuated that Boeing execs internally predicted Airbus would encounter massive problems and delays and significant compromises when converting an existing airframe to more efficient engines.

So after Airbus pulled it off and threatened to take over American Airlines' business, Boeing decided to take on an even bigger challenge, converting an even less appropriate airframe to larger engines in even less time. I think it too early to say if this is inherently a mistake, as far as the engineering goes. Maybe the plane is 100% fine in the end and had just one unfortunate oversight. But in terms of business and safety, they might have made a costly mistake in the way the did or didn't disclose MCAS to their customers.

Boeing makes decisions for its shareholders. There is an obvious conflict of interest when safety is concerned. That's presumably one of the reasons for government oversight, e.g. the FAA and the like. I don't think anyone trusts the FAA, right now. No matter how "under staffed or underbudgeted" they can claim to be, it costs them nothing to not sign an approval/certification. It shouldn't be their job to help Boeing stay competitive. Boeing's deadlines and business future should be of no concern to the FAA. The FAA was acting more like the protector of a government monopoly than a regulartory body.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 08:03:30 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #729 on: March 30, 2019, 07:49:04 pm »
This new Boeing screen sucks, the AoA DISAGREE annunciator is at the bottom, AoA gauge at the top, and not sure where the second or which AoA sensor is driving the gauge. What does the gauge do when there is a discrepancy? Please add more confusion.

What do you expect for $80k per plane option! Perfection? :palm:  :(
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #730 on: March 30, 2019, 08:20:26 pm »
^I'm still curious what happens when one sensor goes out.

On a given plane, for instance, there might be 3-5 pitot tubes. And one a certain number of them go out, the autopilot will shut off. But what numbers does the pilot get to see? If 2 out of 5 go out, does he have any way of seeing the individual readings? Or does he just get the average? Or does his display just show "error."

If we go by what the news has stated and take that as a final word: in this case, it appears there would be two displays for either AOA sensor. And one sensor drives the stick shaker (stall alert) only for the one of two control columns, the one that is on that side of the plane. And from what the news has stated, the MCAS works off only one of these sensors... either the left one or the right one, presumably. So if one were to go down, it would be 50 chance that MCAS is still working correctly and 50% chance it would be fed by the affected sensor. So the procedure wouldn't change. One might presume, things would still be rolled into "runaway stab trim" protocol.

This is why after the news reports claiming that Boeing made a critical safety warning indicator an optional costly upgrade, I still don't see the connection.* That seemingly would have only a small chance to have changed the outcome. The "memory items" are still the same. There's just a footnote at the bottom that says that the AOA disagree alert might be lit. The pilots actions would remain unchanged, per this protocol.

It might prompt earlier maintenance if the AOA disagree alert had lit on prior flights (but the fault was not such that stall warning or MCAS had fired).

*Consider American Airlines response to this sensor disagree. They're the only US airline that did not pay for the optional upgrade. American rep stated "We did not install this option, because our pilots use different information [not AOA] to fly the plane." Even decades after AOA sensors are commonplace on aircraft, actual display of this info to the pilot is relatively recent (in non military aircraft). Some planes have AOA sensors, but they are only there to activate a stall alert or stick shaker.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 08:47:37 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #731 on: March 30, 2019, 09:22:31 pm »
This new Boeing screen sucks, the AoA DISAGREE annunciator is at the bottom, AoA gauge at the top, and not sure where the second or which AoA sensor is driving the gauge. What does the gauge do when there is a discrepancy? Please add more confusion.

What do you expect for $80k per plane option! Perfection? :palm:  :(

They're working on this for months! It's like Boeing's engineering has gotten farmed out to some third world country doing discount S/W development....
Relying on a single sensor, that programmer way out of his league. Rumour has it they fired all the senior engineers with the move to Chicago, years ago.

Avionics ergonomic standards exist, for all instrumentation. The font, spacing, colours, rules for data presentation etc. is standardized. This fix shows an idiot still at large.
I see a tiny red bar on the AoA gauge but showing one pointer with two sensors is confusing. It must get ugly when there is a discrepancy.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #732 on: March 30, 2019, 09:57:39 pm »
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This fix shows an idiot still at large.
Unfortunately, this isn't a fix. This was an available option from before the "MCAS problem" was discovered.

The "actual problems" have been "tentatively" fixed.

1. MCAS is purportedly going to utilizing data from both sensors. Whether this is  go/no-go based on agreement/discrepancy or whether it works on an average would be nice to know. Per the Seattle Times, this is actually an FAA requirement for any system that can lead to injury or death, that is has to rely on more than a single sensor. So this might have been improperly certified from the get go. Even in their initial submission, Boeing stated that MCAS had the potential to lead to injury and death if it erroneously fired during a bank/turn. They did not foresee the possibility, apparently, of a total loss of the plane... that carries, apparently, a different category of risk.

2. MCAS will be limited to 2.5 degrees of trim, maximum/cumulative, regardless of actual AOA or in the case of sensor error.

As far as what Boeing has acknowledged (through reps to the media) to this point, the only devastating error was the lack of foresight regarding "human reaction." As far as we know, Boeing still considers the original implementation to be sufficient given enough training. But they'd only be speaking through expensive lawyers and sticking to a careful script.

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Avionics ergonomic standards exist, for all instrumentation. The font, spacing, colours, rules for data presentation etc. is standardized.
And you'd think that having instrument readouts all performed by a computer display would make it easier to customize it. Why you need to jam a LED somewhere, when you can put a warning indication right on the screen, right by the output? I mean, I know the answer is probably something to do with code audits and lots more time and/or money.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 10:08:43 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #733 on: March 30, 2019, 11:38:58 pm »
Im not ranting besides at armchair pilots like your self
I've been an actual pilot since age 14, but not as a job. Also, I was once involved in MD-11 cockpit training of airline pilots. I suspect I have a better handle on reality here than actual armchair pilots.
 
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Offline dcac

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #734 on: March 31, 2019, 01:02:34 am »
This might have been posted before, but I found a huge amount of information here:
https://www.satcom.guru/2019/03/aoa-vane-must-have-failed-boeing-fix.html

Very detailed description of AoA sensors:
https://www.satcom.guru/2018/12/angle-of-attack-failure-modes.html

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #735 on: March 31, 2019, 01:49:06 am »
I'll still take the opinions of all the media - who are driven by the dollar - and armchair experts - who are driven by the Media - with a grain of salt the size of Uluru.

Mentour Pilot is worth watching.  He does not get into conjecture at all...

 
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Offline SkyMaster

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #736 on: March 31, 2019, 01:59:19 am »

This new Boeing screen sucks, the AoA DISAGREE annunciator is at the bottom, AoA gauge at the top, and not sure where the second or which AoA sensor is driving the gauge. What does the gauge do when there is a discrepancy? Please add more confusion.


The AOA indicator is displaying the information received from its own associated sensor. "AOA disagree" means the left and right AOA indicators are not displaying the same information.

 :)
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #737 on: March 31, 2019, 03:20:30 am »
Re Gyro's question:
Actually, now that I think of it, the news gives the impression that not all of the planes even have an AOA display. I think the airline is paying $80,000 for the light in lieu of the bigger pricetag of having the AOA actually on the display cluster. Southwest is said to be upgrading all their MAX planes from having just the disagree alert to having the AOA displayed on their consoles.

AOA and MCAS on all MAX planes.
$80,000 LED alert upgrade, now standard.
AOA actually displayed on a screen, optional upgrade.

This might make the location of the light vs the display less er.. strange. The plane is maybe not even designed/planned to ever have both features installed at the same time?

Making the LED standard might be a seen as a concession that the standard emergency procedure to cover runaway stabilizer is not sufficient under all circumstances. The alert would potentially give pilots an advance notice. I wonder if they will also change the procedure/algorithm in case of a disagree alert being noticed but no other symptoms have occurred.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 03:35:13 am by KL27x »
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #738 on: March 31, 2019, 03:42:13 am »
the news gives the impression that not all of the planes even have an AOA display. I think the airline is paying $80,000 for the light in lieu of the bigger pricetag of having the AOA actually on the display cluster.
imho, i dont think AOA display is compulsary. if say wind in somewhat downward direction, plane will have more room AOA (i mean angle relative to horizon) before stall, and then there's gravity's pull, so pilot will not be able to tell much by looking at AOA alone, except if assuming wind is in horizontal direction, or if he has trigonometric memory. but then i'm not a pilot (except with joystick to a $30 drone) i maybe wrong. i think real pilot dont need eye to detect a stall, they can feel it in the butt, but then i'm not sure how it goes on a big fat plane. having said that, its good to have AOA as secondary display, or as additional info.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 04:40:56 pm by Mechatrommer »
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #739 on: March 31, 2019, 04:04:04 am »
^If you read details of AF447, is seems like a pilot of a large airplane doesn't feel anything useful, especially in a storm with turbulence.

"Angle relative to horizon" is apparently called the "pitch," though, FWIW. AOA is pretty much the angle of the plane/wings relative to the plane's vector (true direction it is travelling), unless you have a wing engineer nit picking you with wing chords and turbulence and other stuff. So AOA and pitch should be roughly the same when the plane is travelling in a completely horizontal direction when displayed in absolute degrees. But some planes don't display AOA as a quantity. Some planes display a corrected value between 0 and 1, with 1 being the stall limit under specific conditions (low speed, low altitude). Apparently the stall limit for AOA changes at higher cruising speeds. (I think it goes down as the plane goes faster, but I might have reversed that in my head.) It also decreases with altititude due to the air getting thinner. And, of course, different planes have different AOA limits before stall, which is one of the main reasons for the corrected value being common.

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(deleted) post locked (unless requested with a good reason) i love it when reading people posts clever without knowing who they talked to (it happened to me as well sometime) there's nothing wrong to tell who you are so other reader can give more merit to posts from real people, and lesser to hearsay or imaginative (unrealistic) one, forums are becoming more like this. so reader will not be falsely informed and can make wiser decision, be more clever. not specifically to this thread discussion, it can be anywhere. fwiw.
Information doesn't always flow downhill. (Something else usually does, though). If you want to believe in authority and pedigrees, just wait for the experts at Boeing to tell you how safe their plane is. They have the manpower and resources to best certify their plane; just ask the FAA.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 04:12:37 am by KL27x »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #740 on: March 31, 2019, 05:20:27 am »

This new Boeing screen sucks, the AoA DISAGREE annunciator is at the bottom, AoA gauge at the top, and not sure where the second or which AoA sensor is driving the gauge. What does the gauge do when there is a discrepancy? Please add more confusion.


The AOA indicator is displaying the information received from its own associated sensor. "AOA disagree" means the left and right AOA indicators are not displaying the same information.

 :)

When a discrepancy occurs, which AoA sensor is displayed? I see one pointer and a pilot might know whichof two possibly has good data.
There is no green or red zone on the gauge, as other displays have? Or I have to squint to see them.
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #741 on: March 31, 2019, 10:08:26 pm »

This new Boeing screen sucks, the AoA DISAGREE annunciator is at the bottom, AoA gauge at the top, and not sure where the second or which AoA sensor is driving the gauge. What does the gauge do when there is a discrepancy? Please add more confusion.


The AOA indicator is displaying the information received from its own associated sensor. "AOA disagree" means the left and right AOA indicators are not displaying the same information.

 :)

When a discrepancy occurs, which AoA sensor is displayed? I see one pointer and a pilot might know whichof two possibly has good data.
There is no green or red zone on the gauge, as other displays have? Or I have to squint to see them.

Hello floobydust,

The Captain side AOA indicator is connected to the left side AOA vane, and the First Officier side AOA indicator is connected to the right side AOA vane. This still the case if there is a "AOA disagree".

The image from your message https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lion-air-crash-jakarta-boeing-737-had-prior-instrument-error/msg2308272/#msg2308272 is showing the green and red zones, but they are not highly visible.

:)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 01:51:25 am by SkyMaster »
 

Online soldar

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #742 on: April 01, 2019, 08:17:55 am »
So AOA and pitch should be roughly the same when the plane is travelling in a completely horizontal direction when displayed in absolute degrees.
I believe this is not correct. Pitch and AoA are only distantly related. The movement of the airfoil through the air creates an apparent movement of such air and so the AOA varies with speed through air. Also the wing does not have to be parallel to the fuselage.

It is the same in sailing (with which I am more familiar with). Imagine the boat starting out motionless in the water with the wind right across at 90º with a true wind speed of 10. Then the boat starts gaining speed and the apparent wind starts changing (apparent) direction towards the bow. Now the boat is moving at a speed of 10 with a true wind 0f 10 at 90º but the apparent wind is 14 at 45º.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #743 on: April 01, 2019, 07:48:14 pm »
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I believe this is not correct. Pitch and AoA are only distantly related.
They are not directly related, in general; and I didn't say they were. But they are directly related in a specific condition. If 1. pitch is the angle of the plane in relation to the horizon, with pitch == 0 when the plane is horizontal and 2. AOA is the difference between the axis of the plane and the angle of its current vector, then pitch will equal AOA at the point where the plane's vector of travel matches the horizon, e.g the plane is flying exactly level without gaining or losing altitude and the plane is not banking. When the plane's vector is perfectly horizontal, and the plane is not banking, pitch and AOA are directly related if not exactly the same thing.

Even if you take an up/down wind into account, this is still true. If there's a downward wind, the plane will need to fly at a higher pitch angle in order to maintain level flight. Nose up. The vector of the plane is still level, the nose is higher, thus the AOA is also increased. They are affected in exactly the same way, as long as the plane is flying exactly horizontal/level. You can do the same thought exercise with a head or tail wind. With increasing tail wind, if you keep the true velocity of the plane constant, it's like slowing the plane. And you will need a higher AOA/pitch to keep the plane flying perfectly level. Vice versa with a head wind.

Obviously, while descending/landing the plane's AOA will be greater than the pitch. And while climbing, the pitch will be greater than the AOA. This is because the angle of the plane's vector is no longer matching the horizon. The one reading is relative to horizon, the other is relative to current vector.

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The movement of the airfoil through the air creates an apparent movement of such air and so the AOA varies with speed through air.
I'm sorry, this sentence has no meaning to me.

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the AOA varies with speed through air.
This part has a meaning to me, and I believe it is wrong. The AOA where a plane will stall changes with speed and altitude, but the actual AOA does not. It is still the angle between the plane's nose-tail axis and the plane's vector and nothing here changes with speed. The AOA that a plane will utilize in order to maintain level flight will change with speed (because the wings will generate more lift, they won't need as high an AOA or pitch). Provided the pilot wants to keep the vector exactly level, the AOA utilized will decrease as the plane increases in speed. But it will decrease in the exact same way that the pitch does, because as long as the vector of the plane is exactly horizontal, the AOA and pitch will be exactly the same (plus or minus any offset depending on how you are defining the reference point or zero point for either one, which is basically just an arbitrary decision, one of which an engineer handles a hundred a day; this can also be looked at as a calibration difference).

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Also the wing does not have to be parallel to the fuselage.
This is irrelevant to an engineer. Whether you define the AOA as the difference in angle between the plane's vector and its fuselage... or between the plane's vector and its wing angle, it really doesn't matter. You could define the AOA for a given plane to be the angle between its vector and some arbitrary line painted on the side of the plane, even, and it wouldn't matter. Each individual plane has it's own AOA limits, anyway, which is why in many planes the actual angle isn't even displayed, and AOA is just given as a corrected number between 0 and 1. And in any case, if expressed as the actual angle, you could use a fixed offset to convert one to the other, fuselage vs wing (in case they differ by a few degrees).

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It is the same in sailing (with which I am more familiar with). Imagine the boat starting out motionless in the water with the wind right across at 90º with a true wind speed of 10. Then the boat starts gaining speed and the apparent wind starts changing (apparent) direction towards the bow. Now the boat is moving at a speed of 10 with a true wind 0f 10 at 90º but the apparent wind is 14 at 45º.
See previous reply about wind angle. On second thought, you're right. The AOA as measured by a 737 sensor will increase some in a downwards winds or draft compared to pitch, even when the vector is level. This might be significant if flying through a hurricane or other localized, sudden weather phenomenon with significant vertical wind speed.

The AOA isn't some magic bean thing measured at the wing. In the case of a 737 it's just a vane on the sides of the nose. The fact it measures an angle relative to the vector (vs horizon) is significant, so that the stall warning is relatively accurate (adjusted for speed) no matter if the plane is flying level or if it is ascending or descending, because you can stall a plane in any of these cases. If you are increasing the AOA/pitch too fast, you can stall the plane even while the plane is below a normal cruising pitch. You could stall a plane while the pitch is negative, even, if you were pulling too hard out of a dive, for instance.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 12:56:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #744 on: April 01, 2019, 10:27:21 pm »
e.g the plane is flying exactly level without gaining or losing altitude and the plane is not banking.

Optimal/designed cruise pitch of 737 and similar planes is said to be 2..3 degrees, not exactly level zero. Zero pitch is descent mode.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 11:11:16 pm by ogden »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #745 on: April 01, 2019, 10:31:32 pm »
Yes. Fascinating.

I.e., during level flight at cruising speed and altitude, the pitch will be 2-3 degrees. And the AOA will essentially be 2-3 degrees. Identical. It's so strange how you can infer that from the definitions of pitch and altitude if you're not a moron. If you don't automatically get it, everything an engineer does is just "magic" to you and there's no point in discussing it.

You don't have to understand basic physics and logic to fly a plane, thankfully.

I fully realize this post is condescending and arrogant.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 10:59:37 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #746 on: April 01, 2019, 11:03:15 pm »
I mean, it is always correct in the sense that when the angle of attack is not 0.0, the aircraft is not flying, relative to the wind, in the same direction it's pointing.

Right. Boeing does good job explaining AOA:



http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_12/attack_story.html

You posted this, yourself. Change the vector of the plane to match the horizon. Then puzzle to yourself what is the difference between AOA and pitch when the plane is thusly flying.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #747 on: April 01, 2019, 11:29:14 pm »
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What exactly you are implying?
I'm very clearly stating a fact. You don't need to understand how a plane flies to fly it. The same way the best motorcycle racer in the world doesn't need to understand how the vehicle does what it does or why he does what he does to steer it... just that he gets the response that he wants. The guy that fires a gun doesn't need to know how it operates to be the world's best shot.

It would be disastrous if James Bond was the one making the gadgets and Q were out trying to save the world. Furthermore, sometimes Q has to figure out exactly how dumb James Bond is to make sure the gadgets perform as he might expect with his 20 seconds of training. In the case of MCAS, Q might have to explain things in a little more detail before James understands how to not crash the plane. If it's just too complicated, Q might have to come up with some simplified rules for James, as was often the case in the movies. He would tell James about some limitation and where something "bad" can happen, and James would inevitably find some occasion to have to "break the rule" and things work out, anyway.

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It is insulting
I run out of patience. I am not sorry. Continue looking at the picture and you will either understand, or you can concede that other people get it and that's all that matters, or you can go ahead and assume that w/e you can't understand it's because "it's more complicated than that" and/or no one else can actually understand it without having a degree from AOA University.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 12:50:05 am by KL27x »
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #748 on: April 01, 2019, 11:47:04 pm »
I already posted this back in #537, but people are arguing about AOA again. It's not unambiguously defined.

Let's start by quoting wikipedia.

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In aerodynamics, angle of attack specifies the angle between the chord line of the wing of a fixed-wing aircraft and the vector representing the relative motion between the aircraft and the atmosphere. Since a wing can have twist, a chord line of the whole wing may not be definable, so an alternate reference line is simply defined. Often, the chord line of the root of the wing is chosen as the reference line. Another choice is to use a horizontal line on the fuselage as the reference line (and also as the longitudinal axis).

OK, so:
1. Angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft and earth (irrespective of direction of travel): is called Pitch
2. Angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft and the velocity of the aircraft through the air: is called AOA (assuming we choose the "another choice" in the Wikipedia definition); and needn't be positive in straight and level flight (especially at high speed)
3. Angle between root chord of the wing and velocity of the aircraft through the air: is also called AOA (assuming the chord line definition is used).

In short, let's stop arguing over an ill-defined term like AOA. A wing designer probably has definition 3 in mind, while a pilot maybe probably has definition 2 in mind.
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #749 on: April 02, 2019, 12:19:22 am »
So AOA and pitch should be roughly the same when the plane is travelling in a completely horizontal direction when displayed in absolute degrees.
Also the wing does not have to be parallel to the fuselage.
It is the same in sailing (with which I am more familiar with).

e.g the plane is flying exactly level without gaining or losing altitude and the plane is not banking.
Optimal/designed cruise pitch of 737 and similar planes is said to be 2..3 degrees, not exactly level zero. Zero pitch is descent mode.

fascinating, everybody want to learn about aeroplane. iirc a diagram, pitch is angle of fuselage to motion vector and AoA is wing cross section (or effective horizontal line? damned terminology) to relative air motion angle the wing is attacking. and if look closely, angle of wing to fuselage is greater near fuselage compared to wing tip, and then there's new wing tip design thats going upward, thats to avoid some term of turbulent at wing tip, so i guess yeah, its possible cruising at 0 degree pitch (fuselage angle) while maintaining altitude. its also for comfort to passengers and those nice stewardesses during auto cruise. ps: too sad how many stewardesses wasted during the tragedies.

btw i recommend everybody should buy a book. i bought this book https://www.amazon.com/Mechanics-Flight-Warren-F-Phillips/dp/0470539755 just because i have a dream at self designing aircraft, the math and axises inside is nuts i think i only can understand less than 10% of whats inside. so i just drawed my airplane and build it disregarding the math nitty gritty. during first test flight, once its airborne it directly make a one nice circle acrobatics stunt up and then turn back and crash to the ground nose first and crash the 3d printed parts to bits and pieces, so now there's no 2nd project anymore until i find time. later during post mortem the conclusion is my airplane design is exactly as this 737 problem, engine thrust is below center of gravity (mass), so excessive thrust will nose up, it will be one hell of a manual control for the maneuver , later project it wont be manual joystick control anymore, it will be fly-by-wire arduino AI! with 6 axis complete attitude control sensoring to avoid pilot (me) stupidity :P
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 


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