Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.
Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H2O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H2O, 1 cm, will do nothing.
Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.
Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.
4 hours ago:
Last night we posed an updated development plan for Airing. It apparently created confusion on some key aspects of the plan. Thank you to a few of you who noted the ambiguity. We are revising the plan to make it clearer and will repost soon. Please stay tuned.
Jeffrey Torres (16 hours ago):
I’m quite excited about this but I am concerned of how you will get the rest of the funding needed to make this a reality. According to your plans, it will take $7,500,000 to make this into production. So far, the funding has only been $800,000 with only 5 days left. Where will the remaining $6,800,000 come from? If you don’t get this funding what happens to the perks? Thank you.
fishandchimps (15 hours ago):
I’m also concerned and compelled to ask why your initial pitch was for $100,000 when you knew you’d need $7-8 million to have a chance of completion ?!
The way things work here at Indiegogo every single backer will be on the hook for their ‘contribution’ after the 5 days remaining with no recourse or assistance from IGG regardless of what you do from that point on.
Seems a bit duplicitous not to mention a FAR greater risk for us all given this new information ?
Please address ASAP.
DreamSeeker (10 hours ago):
Your recent update was very concerning and puts your integrity in question.
Your update stated, “prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures … $500K to $1M” with $7.5M to get to production.
All I’ve read so far implied the device was proven to work and you need “help to get it off the drawing board and into [our] hands” with $100K “enough money to make Airing happen”. I would not have contributed towards $500K – $1M to prove it works.
DreamSeeker (10 hours ago):
It seems additionally questionable that you removed the recent update with no comment about the plan:
1. Prototyping the micro-blowers: prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures. Est. cost: $500K to $1M (6-9 months).
2. Testing the device: Cost: up to $500K (2-4 months).
3. Manufacturing testing: prove that the micro-blowers can be manufactured using the roll to roll process. Est. cost: $2M to $4M in equipment and $2M in labor (up to 12 months).
fishandchimps (7 hours ago):
I asked IGG support to re-evaluate the original “pitch” proposal vs. the now redacted Update #9 with its much more detailed disclosures to see if the apparent discrepancies with this campaign are still in keeping with their “Trust and Safety” guidelines ?
Rereading the original story with a now jaundiced eye seems to indicate the whole project is built upon some very spurious and misleading details given the revelations offered in that now missing “update”.
Caveat emptor.
fishandchimps (3 hours ago):
Given that only 5 of your current 8128 backers expressed even marginal concerns over the hitherto unpublished details provided in that now redacted ‘update’, it appears you needn’t worry too much about offering us any strong due diligence !
I’m guessing the general lack of suspicion mostly reflects our overall desperation for an effective and comfortable CPAP substitute ?
Is there any supporting evidence whatsoever that this venture is more than just a pipe dream theory at this juncture ?
Matthew Chan (2 hours ago):
Re-reading the campaign, they did say the crowdfunding was meant to raise funds for prototyping and the original timeline posted does seems to jive with a hyperoptimistic reading of now-redacted detailed timeline. With that said, it’s deceitful to withhold the information regarding the need for millions of dollars of additional funding to actually get the product manufactured. There is no way this product will get to production without venture capital, contrary to what the campaign text says.
Matthew Chan (2 hours ago):
I still would have contributed even if they had been honest about the cost. I.e. The message should have been something like “We need $10 million to take this from concept to reality, and we want to crowdfund $100k to help us obtain the resources to build some proof-of-concept prototypes which we will then use to seek venture capital or acquisition by big pharma.”
fishandchimps (1 hour ago):
I’d be interested in any sort of broad explanation of how you propose “Airing” would work to deliver even 1/2 liter of air at 20cm H2O in the 4-5 or so seconds every single breath takes ?
The housing looks to have a total volume of about 15 – 20cc.
Is it your position that you’ll be able to generate ~ 40 times that volume, at pressure, in those few seconds ?
Please educate us.
fishandchimps (1 hour ago):
I NEED this thing to work BUT rehashing well known details offered in your initial story regarding what conventional CPAP’s can actually do is in no way an indication of anything ‘Airing’ has been demonstrated to be capable of ?!
This entire venture sounded too good to be true…
Is there anything at all you can cite that we can look to for some sort of independent verification of your claims ?
R U aware that the Mass. AG’s office has been at the forefront of crowd sourcing investigations ?
Maybe it is a valid research project.
1. Find a valid 'need' for a medical product,
2. Propose an attractive but unworkable solution on a crowd-funding site.
3. Close it the funding down just before it is accepted
4. Write paper on "how crowdfunding sites encourage snake-oil products for desperate sufferers of medical issues".
5. Publish / profit?
Or maybe it is cheap market research?
Nick Martin
4 hours ago
$7.5Mil needed to complete the Project? Requesting $100k seems like a splash in a very deep pool! The new timeframe given means the estimated delivery date is way off what was initially promised. This seems like a ‘scam’ from the start. I use the term ‘scam’ with some trepidation as I think it’s more misleading than any thing else.
If it turns out that the new timing projections given & the new costing ($7.5MILLION!) predictions are true I think that Creators are ‘sick’ – it’s worrying that the Update has disappeared? – only time will tell…
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
Your video is duplicitous at best. You show nothing but an empty housing.
Admittedly I’m not the sharpest awl in the tool box. For all the world I was convinced you were demonstrating a working prototype not a vacant vessel with little but hope for functioning ‘innards’.
The patients depicted wearing the “device” as well as the narrative serve little but to add to the deception.
Kickstarter guidelines now forbid depictions of non working prototypes.
Indiegogo…not so much.
Shame on you both.
tpolasek
2 hours ago
I too thought that the micro blowers had been proven in cooling computer chips. They are the key to the product. I give the benefit of the doubt to the team that they are serious, capable and committed. These are just missteps in crowd funding.
Two questions for the Airing.
1. How confident are you that the blowers will work? What work has been done? CAD design? Computer simulation? Working prototype?
2. How confident are you that the needed additional funding can be raised?
Thank you!
Answer regarding Airing device and treatment pressure: Can Airing produce as much air pressure as a typical CPAP machine?
The pressure generated by the typical CPAP machine ranges from 1 to 20 centimeters of water (cmH20), known as the treatment number. A doctor or sleep technician tests the patient to determine the appropriate treatment number. The Airing device has been designed to generate the full range of treatment pressures up to and in excess of a treatment number of 20.
Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.
Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.
I think we can calculate work needed to move that volume of air (regardless of pressure) since that is a critical parameter. Then the actual pressure the blower can produce when it is obstructed is going to be based on the design of the blower construction, how "leaky" it is when faced with a blockage.... we will then have to show it can sustain 6-20mm Aq. But the first part is simply moving a volume of air assuming 100% perfect mechanical driving force to sustain breathing.
If IndieGogo doesn't stop this campaign, well they are no better than the scammers. People should sue IndieGogo for not abiding by their own rules. Wait. Do they have any rules? Do they ever enforce them? and did Airing violate them? That's what some backers are trying to prove.
I'm afraid crowdfunding, and Indiegogo in particular has peaked. If it was a stock, I would short it. It's scams like these that I think are responsible. I'll bet in a few more years crowdfunding will no longer exist - at least in its current form.
Expanded Airing Development Plan and Goals
Given your tremendous response and your wonderful, and often moving, notes of support, we thought you would appreciate more details about our development plan and how you can help.
Your participation at any level can benefit tens of millions of people affected by sleep apnea.
Plan overview:
The development program will require a range of expertise, including electrical, mechanical, software engineering and materials science. Necessary materials and services include 3D printing, CAD software, custom film, metallization and polymer processing.
Four stages of development:
1. Prototyping the micro-blowers: prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures. Estimated cost: $500,000 to $1,000,000 (6-9 months).
2. Testing the device: requires integrating the micro-blowers into the Airing package for sleep tests and measurement of efficacy. Cost: up to $500,000 (2-4 months).
3. Manufacturing testing: prove that the micro-blowers can be manufactured using the roll to roll process. This will require the design of a complete manufacturing process flow. At this time we will also explore viable recycling options. This phase will require the purchase, assembly and testing of a bench scale prototype line to produce the micro-blower component of the Airing device. Estimated cost: $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 in equipment and $2,000,000 in labor (up to 12 months).
4. Scaling: mass manufacturing based on the results of the previous phases.
Some stages could proceed in parallel. Clinical trials and FDA clearance could occur while gearing up manufacturing. The greater the support, the faster and more effectively we can implement the development program.
Stretch goals and corresponding progress:
$1,000,000: Substantially complete Stage 1 and begin parallel work on Stage 2.
$1,500,000: Substantially complete Stages 1 and 2 and begin work on Stage 3.
$2,000,000: Extend work deeper into Stage 3.
These estimates of time and cost are based on input from experienced individuals and institutions from the relevant fields.
As is common in crowdfunding, we are trying to raise as much as we can towards our mission. Support from contributors like you also reinforces the viability of Airing to future large investors.
And that’s what this crowdfunding campaign is all about: to help make Airing happen.
Please help us by contributing what you can and by spreading the word to those you know who care about sleep apnea.
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
Would I be correct in assuming that the promised “update” to your recently retracted ‘updated business plan’ won’t be forthcoming till AFTER this campaign closes and any chance for backers to amend their pledges or ask for refunds based on any new information you provide expires…in 63 hours ?
I hate to be ‘that guy’ but it appears I’m the only person concerned with doing even the bare minimal due diligence before abandoning the $800,000 + raised here, to blind faith.
Thanks
As is common in crowdfunding, we are trying to raise as much as we can towards our mission. Support from contributors like you also reinforces the viability of Airing to future large investors.
fishandchimps
11 minutes ago
I sent an email to GE Global Reseach’s legal dept. asking them to at least have a look see here ?
Ideally before your campaign ends.
No response from IGG. Again not a big surprise, they get their cut even before you get yours. It’s a lot of money.
I hope my healthy skepticism is misplaced but…..?
A few simple answers would send me packing.
fishandchimps
1 hour ago
It also appears the patented GE technology involved is dependent on AC current so some sort of power converter is required to run it from a DC source ?
This may have some bearing on why repeated questions and requests about rechargeable units instead of disposable “Airings” seemingly won’t be addressed here ?
It’s kinda moot though since it appears even GE hasn’t gotten to the nano levels of the proposed mechanisms assigned to these 2017 “Airing” units ?
Any comments for clarity ?
I’ll wait.
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
No answers – No surprise. Other than when you’re up-selling or holding contests to increase your sales your communication skills are sorely wanting.
Very typical of scam campaigns though usually not before final closing.
If I Google “dual jet piezo cooling fans” I find it is a recently developed GE proprietary product only available thru licensing from them ?
This brings about many other questions relative to this project.
I’m interested if anyone else is at all curious about any of this ?
A Strong Finish
With the encouragement and support of the people like you who so personally want to see the Airing device succeed, we are achieving the funding necessary for the development of the micro-blower prototype. If we can stretch to reach the $1 to $1.5 million level, we could really accelerate the development of the Airing. Help us, and yourselves, by creating a strong finish to the campaign.
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).I got it from a (deleted) email from IGG.
If you're logged in to IGG, you can "follow" any project and you'll receive announcements via email, even if you don't back the project, and even after the funding finishes.
Somewhat easier (& cheaper) than the KS $1 backer trick. But you still cant post comments (they'd probably get deleted anyway...)
Celia
9 minutes ago
each and every update pushes me to a higher level of disgust and disbelief.
how can a campaign over 800 percent “over” funded be asking for a strong finish?
This is just not right.
No answers to legitimate questions from people who REALLY need this, just more funding “options” and request for funds.
i personally just put in enough to be a supporter for future options. I feel quite badly for anyone who really truly would need this seemingly vaporware object.
ihope4
1 hour ago
You are not along “fish and chimps”. I am not happy with the last retracted proposal and today they are upping the anti. Looks like we’re out in the cold with cumbersome masks until GE or someone else makes a new product.
foamarium
17 minutes ago
Here’s a very telling tidbit of interest for all.
I had to “donate” another $1 with a friend’s account because my Fish and Chimps comments have been completely blocked from posting further on this !!!!!
Big red letters “An unknown error has occurred”
Never happened before.
What a hoot ! I must be hitting some nerves ?
Please people….at least look a bit deeper here yourselves.
The more I look this the less convinced I am and the “creator’s” mounting abuses don’t bode well for the future.
foamarium
41 minutes ago
I need something like this to be true but the more I look into things the more it’s shaping up to be a pie in the sky !
I’m astounded people can be so casual about handing over close to $1M based on a few paragraphs, a video and a few pics of an empty shell attached to someone’s nose ?!
Reread this pitch and at least do a minimum due diligence. It’s nuts !
I reduced my “pledge” to the $1 it merits and can wait the extra few months if things turn out to be true.
Ask questions !
Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign. Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign. Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!In the web page, look for the heart shaped icon on the left of the title video (sometimes I've seen it below the video). The icon hould say Follow under it. Similarly on mobile apps there is a heart shaped button on each campaign page (verified in iPhone app).
I have been following your posts and completely agree with you. Now I noticed many of your comments have been removed. I've been logging this campaign and the deletion of comments and wanted to hear more of your story to post in a blog/forum. If you can share what happened, I'd like to know. Thanks!
You can only send messages to people that you're connected to through a campaign.
I tried to send fishandchimps a message via IGG because we both backed another failed IGG campaign (BE Maker), but I couldn't do it either and got the same error. I'm guessing only backers and campaign creators can contact each other - yet another way to keep the masses in-line!