New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510

[E-Design]

That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.

The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.

[hwj-d]

That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.

The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.

Thanks Mr. Keithley for your statement. A company that personally mocks its clients the way you are doing right now, does not have the competence to be referenced in my firm. I will discard all Keithley gauges over time, and will advise my clients to refrain from using Keithley, citing your personally abusive behavior. Thank you for your clarification in this regard, this will protect many of my customers from similar negative experiences.
Communication closed with you.

With kind regards

[Neuromodulator]

That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.

The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.

Thanks Mr. Keithley for your statement. A company that personally mocks its clients the way you are doing right now, does not have the competence to be referenced in my firm. I will discard all Keithley gauges over time, and will advise my clients to refrain from using Keithley, citing your personally abusive behavior. Thank you for your clarification in this regard, this will protect many of my customers from similar negative experiences.
Communication closed with you.

With kind regards

Are you saying that you will tell your clients not to buy Keithley instruments because one guy that works at Keithley asked you to create a new topic instead of continuing with an offtopic discussion? And according to you that would protect customers from similar negative experiences? The experience of joining an online forum, calling the company a fraud and then not getting the response that you expect from the Keithley worker?

[Kleinstein]

In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data.  Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level.  So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.

So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.

[Mr. Scram]

In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data.  Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level.  So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.

So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.

Let's all agree to disagree and move on. We're not going to get anywhere rehashing the same opposing views.

[Mr. Scram]

In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data.  Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level.  So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.

So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.

You keep insisting a DMM6500 is a low grade instrument but other than from the perspective of a rabid volt nut that seems to be pushing it. 0.0075% and that dynamic range is pretty good in the real world and bought for other reasons than say a Fluke 87V.

[HendriXML]

In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data.  Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level.  So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.

So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.

Let's all agree to disagree and move on. We're not going to get anywhere rehashing the same opposing views.

 

[BitWrangler1001]

That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.

The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.

Thanks Mr. Keithley for your statement. A company that personally mocks its clients the way you are doing right now, does not have the competence to be referenced in my firm. I will discard all Keithley gauges over time, and will advise my clients to refrain from using Keithley, citing your personally abusive behavior. Thank you for your clarification in this regard, this will protect many of my customers from similar negative experiences.
Communication closed with you.

With kind regards

For the sake of all us who actually contribute and gain value from the knowledge shared in this thread, I hope we can all agree to ignore hwd-j's future posts.  He is a known troll on the forum if you aren't aware.  His antics have gotten several large threads closed already.  I have no doubt that is his aim here as well. 

You don't have to look for very long through his post history to his trolling antics.  Here's one for example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/covid-19-virus/1925/

So if we want to keep the thread open, let's all just ignore this Coronavirus-denying, conspiracy-spouting moron until he finally gets banned once and for all.

[Mr. Scram]

In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data.  Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level.  So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.

So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.

Let's all agree to disagree and move on. We're not going to get anywhere rehashing the same opposing views.

 

That quote was supposed to be someone else. Back to discussing features and accuracy and such. 

[2N3055]

You keep insisting a DMM6500 is a low grade instrument but other than from the perspective of a rabid volt nut that seems to be pushing it. 0.0075% and that dynamic range is pretty good in the real world and bought for other reasons than say a Fluke 87V.

DM6500, Keysight 34460, 34461, 34465 and all similar instruments are not metrology grade instruments. Sorry to disappoint.

They all come with datasheets that exactly specify what are their measurement uncertainties (that are in several tens of ppm in best ranges) .  Even if you have calibration data that shows that you instrument had zero error on say 10V range three months ago, today, all anybody knows is that you should be in 90 days accuracy spec that for DMM6500 would be 20ppm + 5ppm ±(% OF READING + % OF RANGE) ), meaning 10 V ± 250uV. You might be better than that (and probably would be) but if you had even 248 uV of error (meaning last 2 digits would be wrong) you still would be in specification and instrument would be considered in good shape. On other ranges situation is much worse actually.  Keysight 34460 that is also 6.5 digit meter, is much worse on 10 V range. It has 90 days spec of (50 ppm + 5ppm ±(% OF READING + % OF RANGE) ) that translates to error of max ±550 uV on 10 V voltage, before it is out of spec. More than half of millivolt.. And that is for 90 days. More than 1 years after calibration, 34460 can have ±1 mV error when measuring 10V and still would be in spec. That would mean, that at that point, last 2 digits are completely meaningless in terms of absolute accuracy..

Most of instruments in that class do much better than spec, but manufacturer guarantees only that they will be in spec.  And if you use those instruments in your work, all you can guarantee to your customers is that you measured with instrument that is in spec..

That is for absolute accuracy measurements. For relative measurements, all you can guarantee is 24 hour specs.

So when you accept those facts, why would manufacturer give you data that is meaningless, except statement instrument is in specification... If you want play with instrument pretending it is something it isn't, that is users problem. But, even if you calibrate DMM6500 every day and it has no error for 5 years, and suddenly one day it has 13ppm error on 10V range, it would still be fully in spec.

Actually, compared with competition, DMM6500 has very impressive specs that almost seem too optimistic. It has better 2 year specs than Keysight 34465 1 year's spec on 10 V range for instance..

But none of those are Keysight 3458, or Fluke 8508A, and calibration practice is not the same...

[MegaVolt]

,Now i see all E-Design posts are disappear from that thread. I think it is bad sign.

I confirm. From the topic about DMM7510, all messages also disappeared. In my opinion this is ugly

[hwj-d]

Calling me a troll is an insult. And this from a contestant with a whole thanks of 3 times, compared to my 183rd. Ok, I'll pull some of Mr.Keysight's that I guess weren't quite so serious. I never thought that I would have to refer to such a score here in the forum, but here it shows, where this "troll screaming" comes from. From people who simply run out of arguments. Instead of accepting different opinions, they switch to the personal level and fire what they can, even if the whole forum cohesion breaks down. Seems to be a depravity of a modern discourse culture, incapable of accepting a different opinions. They prefer to ramble on about ignorance lists, so that they would rather not see the other opinion.
Dear people, this is pure socialism. In the end, there is an anthill of individuals who are completely conformist. But only a pluralistic view of things brings creativity and cultural awareness.
I stand behind my opinion. Even if some people can't handle it.

[2N3055]

I stand behind my opinion. Even if some people can't handle it.

You have full right to have any opinion you want, even delusional ones..

What you have no right to is to demand anything from anybody here and order around other people who don't owe anything to you, and then be rude to them if they refuse to cooperate..

And you have no f**king clue what socialism is... That is my opinion.. And don't worry, I don't require four you to do anything about it, thank you.

[JxR]

,Now i see all E-Design posts are disappear from that thread. I think it is bad sign.

I confirm. From the topic about DMM7510, all messages also disappeared. In my opinion this is ugly

Well he is technically still here.  In hindsight, maybe he regrets not remaining anonymous.  Regardless of his motivations he has his reasons.  He already stated he is not here in official capacity, so better to remove previous posts that lead many of us to believe otherwise.  I choose to interpret it as a not so subtle hint that some boundaries are being put up that we should respect.  I personally plan to just let him enjoy his off time like any normal forum user and leave him alone.

[Mr. Scram]

DM6500, Keysight 34460, 34461, 34465 and all similar instruments are not metrology grade instruments. Sorry to disappoint.

They all come with datasheets that exactly specify what are their measurement uncertainties (that are in several tens of ppm in best ranges) .  Even if you have calibration data that shows that you instrument had zero error on say 10V range three months ago, today, all anybody knows is that you should be in 90 days accuracy spec that for DMM6500 would be 20ppm + 5ppm ±(% OF READING + % OF RANGE) ), meaning 10 V ± 250uV. You might be better than that (and probably would be) but if you had even 248 uV of error (meaning last 2 digits would be wrong) you still would be in specification and instrument would be considered in good shape. On other ranges situation is much worse actually.  Keysight 34460 that is also 6.5 digit meter, is much worse on 10 V range. It has 90 days spec of (50 ppm + 5ppm ±(% OF READING + % OF RANGE) ) that translates to error of max ±550 uV on 10 V voltage, before it is out of spec. More than half of millivolt.. And that is for 90 days. More than 1 years after calibration, 34460 can have ±1 mV error when measuring 10V and still would be in spec. That would mean, that at that point, last 2 digits are completely meaningless in terms of absolute accuracy..

Most of instruments in that class do much better than spec, but manufacturer guarantees only that they will be in spec.  And if you use those instruments in your work, all you can guarantee to your customers is that you measured with instrument that is in spec..

That is for absolute accuracy measurements. For relative measurements, all you can guarantee is 24 hour specs.

So when you accept those facts, why would manufacturer give you data that is meaningless, except statement instrument is in specification... If you want play with instrument pretending it is something it isn't, that is users problem. But, even if you calibrate DMM6500 every day and it has no error for 5 years, and suddenly one day it has 13ppm error on 10V range, it would still be fully in spec.

Actually, compared with competition, DMM6500 has very impressive specs that almost seem too optimistic. It has better 2 year specs than Keysight 34465 1 year's spec on 10 V range for instance..

But none of those are Keysight 3458, or Fluke 8508A, and calibration practice is not the same...

That was pretty much my point. Comparing meters to a 3458A or Fluke 8508A and saying they don't compare well is saying no one lives in a nice house because the Palace of Versailles is nicer. While true it's also besides the point and appears to show little sense of scale.

[E-Design]

Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.

I got rid of some of my old posts because I am not an Apps Eng or here for any official reasons related to Tek or Keithley. I'm just here on my own accord. I dont want to misrepresent myself or cause confusion!
Sorry about that.


If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.

No worries, hopefully some tech discussion gets us back on topic. 

Now.. how about those cal certificates.. (just kidding!)

[Mr. Scram]

Calling me a troll is an insult. And this from a contestant with a whole thanks of 3 times, compared to my 183rd. Ok, I'll pull some of Mr.Keysight's that I guess weren't quite so serious. I never thought that I would have to refer to such a score here in the forum, but here it shows, where this "troll screaming" comes from. From people who simply run out of arguments. Instead of accepting different opinions, they switch to the personal level and fire what they can, even if the whole forum cohesion breaks down. Seems to be a depravity of a modern discourse culture, incapable of accepting a different opinions. They prefer to ramble on about ignorance lists, so that they would rather not see the other opinion.
Dear people, this is pure socialism. In the end, there is an anthill of individuals who are completely conformist. But only a pluralistic view of things brings creativity and cultural awareness.
I stand behind my opinion. Even if some people can't handle it.

The point is not that your opinion is wrong, but that it's out of place here when it goes on for too long. At that point it's steering the actual thread off course and changing it into something else. That's when opening another thread starts becoming more suitable. No one says you can't express your views but no one likes it when that one guy goes on and on about his at the Christmas party. At some point he's kindly asked to move along.

[Mr. Scram]

Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.

I got rid of some of my old posts because I am not an Apps Eng or here for any official reasons related to Tek or Keithley. I'm just here on my own accord. I dont want to misrepresent myself or cause confusion!
Sorry about that.


If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.

No worries, hopefully some tech discussion gets us back on topic. 

Can you tell us something about the decisions involved in picking the hardware for this meter, especially the front end UI hardware part? It seems there are incredible options available in the form of ridiculously powerful and efficient phone SoCs. Do you have any insights how and why you ended up with the machine we see today? I understand this may not be your cup of tea, so please feel free to tell us about your part.

[The Soulman]

The discussion about whether a bare bones base model dmm6500 should come with or without a call report
is rather pointless.
As always, you get what you pay for, and you don't get what you don't pay for.

The first time I've purchased a brand new car it came with a less than half full fuel tank,
although disappointed because my expectation was different I really had no right to because
the friendly dealer delivered what I had ordered, no agreements were made on the amount of fuel in the car.
If I had at time of purchase made a agreement with the dealer to deliver the car with a full tank of fuel
he had certainly done so, but I hadn't.
Maybe even could have worked in a inflatable pink crocodile into the deal, but also hadn't, so have to accept that I have to continue live without one, unless I purchase one.

[JxR]

The discussion about whether a bare bones base model dmm6500 should come with or without a call report
is rather pointless....

Lets just let it die.  The White Knights of the Holy Order of the Sacred Calibration have already come down from Volthalla to remind us how pathetic our 6.5 digit peasant meters are. No silly piece of paper, free or paid for can remove the shame of our large measurement uncertainties.  /s   

[Mr. Scram]

The discussion about whether a bare bones base model dmm6500 should come with or without a call report
is rather pointless.
As always, you get what you pay for, and you don't get what you don't pay for.

The first time I've purchased a brand new car it came with a less than half full fuel tank,
although disappointed because my expectation was different I really had no right to because
the friendly dealer delivered what I had ordered, no agreements were made on the amount of fuel in the car.
If I had at time of purchase made a agreement with the dealer to deliver the car with a full tank of fuel
he had certainly done so, but I hadn't.
Maybe even could have worked in a inflatable pink crocodile into the deal, but also hadn't, so have to accept that I have to continue live without one, unless I purchase one.

(Attachment Link)

Please, let it go. We're going to endlessly continue the discussion if individual members keep bringing it up again no matter how well intended.

[Neuromodulator]

Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.

If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.

Hello E-Design,

I recently (after upgrading  the firmware) began experiencing some issues with the power button of the DMM6500. When I press the button to turn it off sometimes (maybe 30% of the times) it immediately turns on again, as if it was some kind of debouncing issue. Are you aware of any modification to the firmware that could have caused that or do you think the problem is not related to the firmware at all?

I'm getting a 2450, and I was checking the TSP-Link addon of the DMM6500, but then I found it apparently is possible to use the LAN to communicate between Keithley instruments (which of course would spare me some money). What are the differences between using TSP-NET and TSP-Link to communicate between Keithley instruments?

Thanks in advance

[E-Design]

Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.

I got rid of some of my old posts because I am not an Apps Eng or here for any official reasons related to Tek or Keithley. I'm just here on my own accord. I dont want to misrepresent myself or cause confusion!
Sorry about that.


If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.

No worries, hopefully some tech discussion gets us back on topic. 

Can you tell us something about the decisions involved in picking the hardware for this meter, especially the front end UI hardware part? It seems there are incredible options available in the form of ridiculously powerful and efficient phone SoCs. Do you have any insights how and why you ended up with the machine we see today? I understand this may not be your cup of tea, so please feel free to tell us about your part.

The whole project was driven to be 'low cost' - As you know, thats a subjective term.. low compared to what? Well the intention is that the 65xx replaces Model2000, Model 2700, Model 2701 - these are older DAQ and DMM instruments. Being older tech with with many of the components mature and undergoing years of cost reductions, those meters were at a fairly low cost point already so the mission of 65xx was to provide an updated display, user interface and some new features . It also aimed to make it more consistent with our other class of products like 2450 and DMM7510. The displays on those meters were much too costly to use.

To do this in a low cost way, all the hardware was drastically simplified and so,  the front display for example - while there are a great many choices in the marketplace - we really had to find one that was reasonably capable, matched the other newer products mentioned and yet had a good cost for us. So that playing field narrowed pretty quickly to what we have on the instrument today. Its not the greatest, but its a great deal better than the older VFD's IMO (not everybody agrees with this!) Same goes for touchscreen... it brings the meters into a more modern user experience that people expect these days (again, a lot of people do still disagree)

Another big driver was the longevity - a lot of the cool UI / displays today are connected to industry trends that are tied to cell phone and IOT markets - SUPER VOLATILE.. Here today, gone tomorrow. We just cant fathom designing a meter with a continuously going obsolete display so we demanded something that will be around for a long time (working with our vendors)

So the biggest factor was cost, longevity and the necessary look and features. So we're pretty happy the fact that we released a modern DMM/DAQ update with new features, preserving specs while also releasing it at a price that's comparable to those older models / competition. In other-words, customers are getting more for the same price (more or less)

As far as UI features go, we have followed some systems and guidelines from "UX" design methodologies to develop interfaces that "most" people can work with right away and not have a frustrating experience (hopefully)

Hope it helps clarify how we ended up with what we got today

[E-Design]

Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.

If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.

Hello E-Design,

I recently (after upgrading  the firmware) began experiencing some issues with the power button of the DMM6500. When I press the button to turn it off sometimes (maybe 30% of the times) it immediately turns on again, as if it was some kind of debouncing issue. Are you aware of any modification to the firmware that could have caused that or do you think the problem is not related to the firmware at all?

I'm getting a 2450, and I was checking the TSP-Link addon of the DMM6500, but then I found it apparently is possible to use the LAN to communicate between Keithley instruments (which of course would spare me some money). What are the differences between using TSP-NET and TSP-Link to communicate between Keithley instruments?

Thanks in advance

Your power button behavior, I have seen/heard about that once or twice before.. sometimes it gets a little glitchy like that.. I did not investigate it directly, but I'm guessing its is hardware related and is caused by a tolerance issue on the switch debounce circuits / logic in there. As you can guess, setting that just right is sort of a tuning exercise where you dont want to have to depress for too long but also if its too short then switch bounce might screw things up. Something in there (on some units) is right on the edge of too short or too long.

I am going to log it as an issue in our system so we can investigate / consider adjusting it slightly.  - thanks for the feedback!

I will ask your TSP-NET, TSP-LINK question to the apps guys. I dont know enough about it to give a meaningful answer.

[BitWrangler1001]

Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.

If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.

Hello E-Design,

I recently (after upgrading  the firmware) began experiencing some issues with the power button of the DMM6500. When I press the button to turn it off sometimes (maybe 30% of the times) it immediately turns on again, as if it was some kind of debouncing issue. Are you aware of any modification to the firmware that could have caused that or do you think the problem is not related to the firmware at all?

I'm getting a 2450, and I was checking the TSP-Link addon of the DMM6500, but then I found it apparently is possible to use the LAN to communicate between Keithley instruments (which of course would spare me some money). What are the differences between using TSP-NET and TSP-Link to communicate between Keithley instruments?

Thanks in advance

TSP-NET
Goes over your LAN (so instruments don't need to be right next to eachother)
Can be used to open sockets to dump data to computer or server
Cheaper
Higher synchronization latency between instruments (still pretty low)
Nondeterministic transfer speed (due going through 3rd party network hardware)

TSP-link
Custom network, connect point to point and daisy chain along instruments
More expensive (if have to buy accessory card)
Lower sync latency between instruments (check spec sheet)
More deterministic transfer speed between instruments (depends on how many instruments/nodes in network)

They have similar learning curves