NEW Next Gen 2 Series Tektronix Oscilloscope

[AndyBeez]

@eevblog Thanks for the world exclusive video. So nice the guys let you tear it down when they must have already known your reputation for brutal Aussie honesty. An interesting form factor, pehaps inspired by those prosumer music production studios? At a glance, some might wonder where the headphone jack is?

On the prosumer look: On a cheap-bay HankyScope, plastik parts held together with randomly located self tappers is expected. However, my brand expectations at this price-point warrants a milled aluminium [or carbon fibre] back shell; held in place with stainless torx bolts.

On robustness, has anyone drop tested this scope from a meter height on to a concrete floor, and on to just one corner? Twice? Or even wrenched the BNC sockets sideways by snagging the test leads in a the door of a passing car? The metal chastity yoke is a must have accessory. Is there a silicone-rubber bumper/fender to fit round the scope when it's being used in the wilderness? For the hardware asset managers, this scope belongs in the 'test pool' on a lease/service/calibration contract. It's the leasing company's expensive problem to fix when one of your wunderkind engineers zaps it

I see the scope as two distinct variants; a slim tablet desk version and a fat battery portable version. Maybe the battery pack fits other scopes in the series? Or were there two design teams in different timezones doing plug-and-play thinking? Either way, in a world s so used to iPads, a snap on battery pack is rather 20th century.

Again, thumbs up for that vesa mount.

[KrzysztofB]

Snap in batteries are good for hot swapping. Also in industrial areas sometimes it's demanded to remove batteries.

[rvalente]

Snap in batteries are good for hot swapping. Also in industrial areas sometimes it's demanded to remove batteries.

I've seen a lot of industrial BS in a few years with Industrial Automation, never about batteries.

[free_electron]

it is still crap to me

Would you buy one of these with your own money if they put proper buttons on it?

If not, why complain?

If i were in the market for a new scope i might.. , 3K$ is not too bad for this kind of performance
I like the form factor and easy portability.

 4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...
if a look at a rigol (350MHz 4+16) it climbs fast into the 4K range (digital cable + protocol decoders + deep mem + awg). Hewagikeypackentsight is even more pricey...

But
- that membrane keypad is a real letdown
- the screen resolution is meh .. 1280x800 in 2022 ? come on. a 100$ tablet has higher resolution. And don't tell me "that would require a lot of graphics power" that Zync processor has plenty !
- no tekprobe connectors so i could use a bunch of my active and diff probes (now i have to use a 1103 power supply). they had the room (and the cavities so to see) to implement that. then again, tek changed their probe interface ...

i'd be looking hard at those micsig machines if i really wanted a touchscreen / tablet formfactor
then again i'd probably get on ebay or one of the used equipment dealers to get a bit more bang for the buck...

[jjoonathan]

I dunno, the ability to wipe down the keys sounds pretty nice. Unless they chose nasty domes.

[bd139]

I dunno, the ability to wipe down the keys sounds pretty nice. Unless they chose nasty domes.

Yeah it'll be much more pleasant when you buy them from ebay in 20 years from a dead ham's wife and you have to clean off the layer of nicotine 

[Someone]

If i were in the market for a new scope i might.. , 3K$ is not too bad for this kind of performance
I like the form factor and easy portability.

 4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...
if a look at a rigol (350MHz 4+16) it climbs fast into the 4K range (digital cable + protocol decoders + deep mem + awg). Hewagikeypackentsight is even more pricey...

The $2700 Tek MSO24 is 70MHz, "equivalent" Rigol MSO5074 $999
350MHz Tek MSO24 $8100 vs Rigol MSO5354 $2700

License bundle awg/serial for Tek $1300 vs Rigol $700 (promotion with Rigol at the moment is $0 for this)
Logic probe set for Tek $1000 vs Rigol $400

As you say, there is "hidden price" especially when most of the comparable low end scopes are offering the serial decodes and/or awg for free.

[Someone]

why compare backwards to superseded models? What reason to choose 2000A/3000A/3000T instead of 3000G/1x00a/1x00G ? 3000G is same price as 3000T but more features unlocked/included.

It really doesn't matter though, because as you said it, it is the same price.

Same price but different features, so making comparison to older/outdated model is intentionally misleading/cherry picking. But seem to be the flavor of this thread. New scope from Tek competitive with other brands superseded models, completely ignoring where the market has moved to. New scope should be compared with current competitors.

[Fungus]

4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...

Anybody have a price list...? 

[Someone]

It would be interesting to watch them compete on pricing/features since these low cost scopes are made in China (Tek 3 series and up are partially? US assembled) so that's not the sticking point. All-most all functionality in a single cheap+large SOC/ZYNQ is a change from the 4/5/6 series, which should be faster than the competitive platforms (and offer more memory) but Tek somehow cripples/dumbs it down.

Yeah but at least Tek did some half smart stuff by using 3GSa/s ADC's and throttling them back to 2.5GSa/s so to get away with minimal cooling and keep the thing quiet.
With most 2000 class scopes 2GSa/s Tek has an edge on them in sampling rate however Dave's latest findings of WFMS and the Teks quite limited memory depth and needing to give good battery life required Tek to clock it down some to meet the design brief.

3G down to 2.5G would be a fairly minor power saving (10-20% of the parts in that path). Limiting the acquisition memory depth while the DDR space is still there and refreshed is not saving any power at all (trigger prefill is always writing at the same bandwidth, only place to save power is in blind time lol) so its just a market segmentation thing and/or avoiding bogging down the UI.

[Someone]

4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...

Anybody have a price list...? 

Pick your preferred/local seller and search for MSO22 or MSO24 ?
https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=MSO24

They're even tidy enough to make a table out of the models:

[free_electron]

350MHz Tek MSO24 $8100

As you say, there is "hidden price" especially when most of the comparable low end scopes are offering the serial decodes and/or awg for free.

website says 2700.. ahh marketing bullshit .. didn't see the "starting at" another strike (that plus the "hide the price behind a quote request.", what are they afraid of ? that people will instantly compare to machines where they can see the price ? and no longer consider these ?). You give them a finger and they gauge out your eyes. For 6 to 8K i can probably get a used 7104B .. 4+16 1GHz and 4Gs/s per channel (none of that one convertor for 2 channels.)

This thing isn't worth 8k. 4K full option yes. above that becomes hard to defend against other brands. for 8K i can even get a new hewlettagikeypackardlentsight ... (aka a HPAK)

[nctnico]

350MHz Tek MSO24 $8100

As you say, there is "hidden price" especially when most of the comparable low end scopes are offering the serial decodes and/or awg for free.

website says 2700.. ahh marketing bullshit .. didn't see the "starting at" another strike (that plus the "hide the price behind a quote request.", what are they afraid of ? that people will instantly compare to machines where they can see the price ? and no longer consider these ?). You give them a finger and they gauge out your eyes. For 6 to 8K i can probably get a used 7104B .. 4+16 1GHz and 4Gs/s per channel (none of that one convertor for 2 channels.)

This thing isn't worth 8k. 4K full option yes. above that becomes hard to defend against other brands. for 8K i can even get a new hewlettagikeypackardlentsight ... (aka a HPAK)

IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs. And the Agilent 7104B is a rather outdated model with a tiny memory (the 8MPts is actually 2Mpts in most cases) which is rather noisy as well. $6k is a ridiculous price to pay for that model. I used to own a 7104A a long time ago (paid much less for it back then) and I would not buy that one ever again. For >200MHz I'd look elsewhere.

[EEVblog]

that membrane crap.

According to the discussion: That "membrane crap" is there to keep finger-dirt out when it's used in dirty environments and so that people can sterilize the keypad easily with anti-COVID wipes.
(this was designed during COVID times and we're not the target demographic)

Having designed countless automated jigs for production lines and test environments, yes, real buttons are a PITA. I'd prefer easy to wipe membrane buttons for this kind of environment.

[EEVblog]

IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.
IIRC it comes standard with 200MHz probes, so imagine if they made the base model 200MHz and included the serial decode and battery for the base price, I think a lot of people would be very tempted.
The form factor aside, it's basically a pricing model issue.

[thm_w]

My gripes with membrane
- no tactile feedback
- membranes invariably fail. the patterning oxidizes, shorts out or opens.
- the top foil hardens and cracks / splits/peels over time. go take a look at your average membrane keyboard used in fuel pumps.

I remember googling something like "tactile membrane keypad million cycle" earlier in the thread and getting plenty of hits. 

Manufacturers can claim whatever they want, reality in real world use is a different story.
Its hard to tell from the video if Tek is using tactile or non-tactile domes, I assume non due to the shapes? Once you go to that level (metal dome with cutout for LED lighting) costs start to rise significantly. There is a wide spectrum of quality for membrane, without having it in front of me its hard to tell.

Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?

[james_s]

Yeah it'll be much more pleasant when you buy them from ebay in 20 years from a dead ham's wife and you have to clean off the layer of nicotine 

Probably less of an issue by then. For one thing most hams these days are not technical enough to own an oscilloscope, especially not a newer one from an A-list brand. Second, smoking rates are quite a lot lower today than they were 20-30 years ago.

[james_s]

IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.

50 ohm termination strikes me as a rather basic feature these days. My scopes all have it, except for the old analog 465b. How much could it have possibly cost to include it? I guess maybe they worried it would cannibalize sales from higher end models.

[james_s]

One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff. You can buy the same scope for literally years.

that's also Lada strategy.

I quite like that strategy actually, those pictures don't tell you anything about what's under the skin but IMO I think the BMW design peaked in the late 80s and beyond that they just got uglier and more bulbous.

Take for example the Boeing 737, it has been manufactured since 1967 and has stayed largely the same since then. Sure there have been lots of incremental updates to the internal systems, they've changed engines a few times, and made other various tweaks but the basic appearance has not changed much at all. It's an example of function over form, like any good tool, whereas automotive design focuses cosmetic change for the sake of keeping up with fashion fads each year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My taste has not changed appreciably over the years, I don't like it when styles constantly change and I can't relate to people that constantly get bored and need change.

[Hugoneus]

I guess by now most of you have seen the teardowns. Here is my review & teardown:

https://youtu.be/qIrn9DuOoiM

[EEVblog]

Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?

There is definite sharp snap like it's a dome. And you can feel the back pressure as you release it, so feels like a metal dome to me. But could just be a really snappy feeling embossed membrane.
The smaller buttons seem to require more force than the larger wide button which work across most of the width, so not a round dome under them.

[Someone]

IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.

50 ohm termination strikes me as a rather basic feature these days. My scopes all have it, except for the old analog 465b. How much could it have possibly cost to include it? I guess maybe they worried it would cannibalize sales from higher end models.

50 ohm inputs are usually adding a relay per channel, quite the pricey addition in a low cost product. Availability of 50 ohm termination built in is hit/miss in low end scopes:

Rigol, 2000 yes, 5000 no
R&S, 2000 no
Keysight, 1000 no, 2000 no, 3000 yes
Siglent, 2000 yes
Lecroy, 3000 yes, 3000z yes
Tek, TBS2000 no ( hidden? it does support active probes), 2 series no, 3 series yes

More teardowns would help!

[tautech]

IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.

50 ohm termination strikes me as a rather basic feature these days. My scopes all have it, except for the old analog 465b. How much could it have possibly cost to include it? I guess maybe they worried it would cannibalize sales from higher end models.

50 ohm inputs are usually adding a relay per channel, quite the pricey addition in a low cost product. Availability of 50 ohm termination built in is hit/miss in low end scopes:

Rigol, 2000 yes, 5000 no
R&S, 2000 no
Keysight, 1000 no, 2000 no, 3000 yes
Siglent, 2000 yes
Lecroy, 3000 yes, 3000z yes
Tek, TBS2000 no ( hidden? it does support active probes), 2 series no, 3 series yes

More teardowns would help!

It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.

[Hugoneus]

It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.

In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.

[EEVblog]

It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.

In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.

Yes, I use inline terminators and they are fine up to 500MHz, so it's an obvious thing to leave out if you are shaving cost. I remember it being a big to-do when the R&S RTB2000 came out. They know it's not a show-stopper for customers.
It's the principle and the convenience of the thing really.
If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.