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I am always suspicious when a 'design team' says they have a super secret solution to a critical problem.
So secret that they themselves don't know the solution, because they've not figured it out yet.
Yep, my money is on that.
And when you have a team that comprises:
Someone "born and raised to be an entrepeneur"
A "market research, community management, PR" person
And a person to handle the Chinese supply frame.
Add Kickstarter, 2 million bucks to try and produce a precision commodity ultra low cost product, and you have a potential recipe for disaster
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No - there were some long-time thermal imaging industry pros behind Seek - they'd have spotted mu's BS in an instant.
There is no evidence of any connection between Mu and Seek - Mu were just a bunch of idiots who didn't have a clue what thy were doingFor a superb example of this, take a look at the Mu thermal camera project that fell flat on its face. A disaster from the start that claimed that all manner of NDA's and 'secret solutions' prevented them showing anything useful of the design. Mu have never released any reasonable explanation of how they were going to achieve the quoted price point when so many expensive obstacles stood in their way. I have to wonder if this printer project is following the same blinkered path ?
to be fail Im now somewhat certain Mu wasnt a scam after all, and they were talking about Seek sensor (or a predecessing prototype) all this time.
timing, weird military claims, nda's, picture quality(banding) of Mu's one time only real life prototype presentation, all fits Seek -
No - there were some long-time thermal imaging industry pros behind Seek - they'd have spotted mu's BS in an instant.
There is no evidence of any connection between Mu and Seek - Mu were just a bunch of idiots who didn't have a clue what thy were doingFor a superb example of this, take a look at the Mu thermal camera project that fell flat on its face. A disaster from the start that claimed that all manner of NDA's and 'secret solutions' prevented them showing anything useful of the design. Mu have never released any reasonable explanation of how they were going to achieve the quoted price point when so many expensive obstacles stood in their way. I have to wonder if this printer project is following the same blinkered path ?
to be fail Im now somewhat certain Mu wasnt a scam after all, and they were talking about Seek sensor (or a predecessing prototype) all this time.
timing, weird military claims, nda's, picture quality(banding) of Mu's one time only real life prototype presentation, all fits Seek
my silly theory is MU got a lucky connection with someone at seek, learned about upcoming product, secured alpha unit with NDA and went full retard with crowdfunding. -
Removed by Aurora as way off topic
Aurora -
No - there were some long-time thermal imaging industry pros behind Seek - they'd have spotted mu's BS in an instant.
There is no evidence of any connection between Mu and Seek - Mu were just a bunch of idiots who didn't have a clue what thy were doingFor a superb example of this, take a look at the Mu thermal camera project that fell flat on its face. A disaster from the start that claimed that all manner of NDA's and 'secret solutions' prevented them showing anything useful of the design. Mu have never released any reasonable explanation of how they were going to achieve the quoted price point when so many expensive obstacles stood in their way. I have to wonder if this printer project is following the same blinkered path ?
to be fail Im now somewhat certain Mu wasnt a scam after all, and they were talking about Seek sensor (or a predecessing prototype) all this time.
timing, weird military claims, nda's, picture quality(banding) of Mu's one time only real life prototype presentation, all fits Seek
my silly theory is MU got a lucky connection with someone at seek, learned about upcoming product, secured alpha unit with NDA and went full retard with crowdfunding.
Mu optics' sensor was never the same resolution as Seek's, and Mu claimed they had changed sensor brand/supplier mid way through the project....so even if their campaign was based on knowledge of a forthcoming Seek unit, that wasn't the sensor they claimed to be using. I don't think any sensor existed that Mu was going to use....anything with the resolution and update rate they specified would have been known to users here.
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A follow-up to the original topic: Tiko 3D just finished their KS campaign with a whopping $2.95M. It is the second most funded 3D printer project on KS. The first one is $3.4M M3D's Mircro project lunched about one year ago. Guess what they have in common? They both use that $1 tin-can step motor 28BYJ-48
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wow
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FWIW, I recently bought my first 3d printer, not a delta (a wood frame i3 variant), but it cost me $169 USD + a little shy of a hundred shipping from China including all the tools you needed (roughly) and a kilo of PLA, it was at my door in about a week after ordering.
I don't know if the aliexpress seller is actually making any money at that price, but it arrived, it took a couple evenings to assemble, there were a couple of issues which I easily corrected, and it's working like a champ so far.
I made some assembly notes;
http://sparks.gogo.co.nz/prusa-i3-from-rp3d-notes.html
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FWIW, I recently bought my first 3d printer, not a delta (a wood frame i3 variant), but it cost me $169 USD + a little shy of a hundred shipping from China including all the tools you needed (roughly) and a kilo of PLA, it was at my door in about a week after ordering.
I don't know if the aliexpress seller is actually making any money at that price, but it arrived, it took a couple evenings to assemble, there were a couple of issues which I easily corrected, and it's working like a champ so far.
I made some assembly notes;
http://sparks.gogo.co.nz/prusa-i3-from-rp3d-notes.html
I don't think I've ever seen one that cheap (used by a real person). Did you find that yourself or was it recommended? -
I don't think I've ever seen one that cheap (used by a real person). Did you find that yourself or was it recommended?
I found it on Aliexpress (link is in my assembly notes above) -
Da Vinci Junior proves that a budget 3D printer is a viable product,but not at $179 ! It seems reasonable at $349 and provided the 'chipped' PLA reels can be hacked, like on its bigger brother, it shouldn't cost a fortune to run.
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2910250/review-the-da-vinci-junior-is-the-easy-bake-oven-of-3d-printers.html
It certainly peaked my interest in a low end 3D printer.
Aurora
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Da Vinci Junior proves that a budget 3D printer is a viable product,but not at $179 ! It seems reasonable at $349 and provided the 'chipped' PLA reels can be hacked, like on its bigger brother, it shouldn't cost a fortune to run.
Sorry, but that is not what I call a "viable product". They are selling it essentially at loss and expect to make up the difference in the expensive proprietary filament.
I think it was hacked already, but that is really stupid business model, IMO, especially when there are plenty of alternatives where you don't have to keep paying "rent" like that. -
Ummm...... are you not aware that HP make the majority of their TOTAL profit from their inkjet printer consumables in spite of compatibles being available ? Its a fact. The business model remains viable. The buyer gets the printer at an amazing price and effectively pays for it many time over through consumables. Compatible consumables do not have the effect that you may think on the business model. Hacking is little different as many owners will be happy to buy from the OEM. Low users of consumables see the subsidised 'printer' as a bargain, and for them it may be.
Aurora
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I only buy HP or Canon ( basically the same printer in any case) and only those models in the options where I can have the cartridges refilled. Then I run it for the warranty period on OEM cartridges, then those will be the refill bodies after that is up.
For a business saving 60% on the cost of printing is going to get some serious attention. I have been using the one refiller nearly since they started, and am on good terms with the owner, I have already given him feedback on his services ( pretty much always very good) and have recommended the company to others, who also get the same good service.
After 5 years the errors and returns are under 1 per year, pretty good, the OEM cartridges have a similar defect rate, and if you actually read the small print on those cartridges you may note that you there will possibly get a refilled and recycled cartridge from them as well, though you are paying for new. That is why you get a prepaid parcel or courier sticker inside, to return your used cartridges "To protect the environment from cartridges dumped in landfill" so that they can refill them and get the extra profit from not having to mould all the plastic parts. The refiller makes a profit from the 1/3 he charges, think of how much you can make as the OEM with the consumables you use being in bulk at a price probably 10% of the refillers price. -
Ummm...... are you not aware that HP make the majority of their TOTAL profit from their inkjet printer consumables in spite of compatibles being available ?
I'm not sure that the 3d printer market is quite ready enough for the razor blade model (yes I know XYZ is doing it already, or attempting), that model depends on people who are
1. not technically capable of avoiding it
2. not motivated to avoid it
given the complexity of operating a 3d printer (or rather, the general complexity of 3d modelling), it's still high cost (for a consumer "friendly" type), and it's fairly niche applications, I think that rather a large proportion of people who buy a 3d printer are both technically capable, and motivated to avoid any razor blade business model.
I've noted that quite a lot of DaVinci 1.0 machines are coming up second hand with little usage here in NZ, the machines are being sold by a large stationery chain here and I suspect that people buy them, find out it's too hard or not that useful, and flick them on, the people who pick them second hand up are even less likely to succumb to the razor blade model I suspect.
To add to this, it should be noted that XYZ are or at least have in the past put in work to defeat the hacks, which perhaps is an indication that the hacks do have a significant impact on sales. -
I'm not sure that the 3d printer market is quite ready enough for the razor blade model (yes I know XYZ is doing it already, or attempting), that model depends on people who are
There is also the fact that the 3D printer manufacturers are nowhere near the reliability of HP/Canon/whatever printers. Or the Gillette razors, if you must. So one ends up paying for the proprietary supplies and still have to mess with a rather expensive machine to make it work and mainly to keep it working. It is not a $50 inkjet you throw away when it breaks.
Moreover, many of these outfits selling machines like the DaVinci will be gone tomorrow - good luck trying to source the proprietary cartridges for the cheap machine then! Razor is cheap to replace, 3D printer not so much, even at $300 price.
That some business model works for razor blades or inkjets doesn't mean it is a good fit for another product.
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I'm not sure that the 3d printer market is quite ready enough for the razor blade model (yes I know XYZ is doing it already, or attempting), that model depends on people who are
There is also the fact that the 3D printer manufacturers are nowhere near the reliability of HP/Canon/whatever printers. Or the Gillette razors, if you must. So one ends up paying for the proprietary supplies and still have to mess with a rather expensive machine to make it work and mainly to keep it working. It is not a $50 inkjet you throw away when it breaks.
Moreover, many of these outfits selling machines like the DaVinci will be gone tomorrow - good luck trying to source the proprietary cartridges for the cheap machine then! Razor is cheap to replace, 3D printer not so much, even at $300 price.
That some business model works for razor blades or inkjets doesn't mean it is a good fit for another product.
I think of these things more like an educational toy. Similar to a 200 in 1 kit for electronics. Spending up to 300 bucks for a toy is not that unusual. It is educational just as the 200 in 1 kit is. I'm not saying it's better just saying that it's educational. Even a "work off the shelf" unit would be educational, 3d modeling is a good thing to know, not sure it's as fun as balsa wood and tissue paper but I want to try it. -
Tiko calls it quits
http://www.3ders.org/articles/20170224-kickstarter-backers-of-179-tiko-3d-printer-wont-be-getting-refunds-says-folding-startup.html
The collective wisdom here seems to have called this one right. 4000 people got a crap printer, and the rest lost their $179 + $55 shipping. -
Remember, when they were so excited about their crap $2 steppers? It was kind of obvious even back then, that those motors will not work for this application.
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Remember, when they were so excited about their crap $2 steppers? It was kind of obvious even back then, that those motors will not work for this application.
Exactly. And a doofus at HaD called that "out-innovating themselves" yesterday.
I have quite different words for that kind of arrogant ignorance and innovation it isn't. -
If they have a toy company on board for design and assembly I'd be more inclined to think they can do it. A $300.00 3d printing toy.
Yes indeed- I am very certain that Silverlit electronics are able - to make a sub 100$ 3d printer that would work. Those toy dogs and dinosaurs have so many motors and sensors and wiring harnesses - I am not even sure how the BOM works on those.
The problem would be either the speed (the robotic dogs are either slow or expensive) and, my $ would be on the reliability of the hot end and bowden extruder.
Lastly, I do not thing an accelerometer would make a bad job of a auto-levelling sensor. It depends I guess on how close they can mount it to the nozzle, and how they compensate for lag (or do the impact at very slow speeds).
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Lastly, I do not thing an accelerometer would make a bad job of a auto-levelling sensor. It depends I guess on how close they can mount it to the nozzle, and how they compensate for lag (or do the impact at very slow speeds).
Accelerometers are incredibly sensitive, I expect that the impact with the bed would be completely drowned out by the steps of the stepper motors, which might look smooth to the eye. Even the teeth of a belt or gear might cause noise in the signal. -
why steppers at all, go closed loop with custom brushed motor servos - with potentiometers moved from inside servo to the arms of delta and control electronics centralized in main microcontroller, + one optical encoder strip for height.
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Lastly, I do not thing an accelerometer would make a bad job of a auto-levelling sensor. It depends I guess on how close they can mount it to the nozzle, and how they compensate for lag (or do the impact at very slow speeds).
Accelerometers are incredibly sensitive, I expect that the impact with the bed would be completely drowned out by the steps of the stepper motors, which might look smooth to the eye. Even the teeth of a belt or gear might cause noise in the signal.
Have you ever set Z0 incorrectly? While I agree the steps are probably detectable and noisy - the impact of the glass is pretty violent. I guess it is how you do the signal processing.
That said - there was a brief period in which the new version of the firmware could not zero properly and I printed without auto levelling. Worked fine. Of course you need to get those transformation parameters right for it to work against a flat plate of glass. -
why steppers at all, go closed loop with custom brushed motor servos - with potentiometers moved from inside servo to the arms of delta and control electronics centralized in main microcontroller, + one optical encoder strip for height.
Those would likely die even faster than the crappy steppers - cheap brushed motors are not the best choice when you need to actually hold position under load, i.e. the motor is stalled. Steppers are designed for this use, brushed DC motor would likely burn out unless it was hugely overspecced. They are not designed to be stalled.