Someone should tell NASA they've figured out room temperature LOX storage. This will revolutionize space flight.
As i said ealier, supplying oxygen is not the hard part, it's ventilating the lungs which requires a fairly large volume of mostly an inert gas to both deliver the oxygen and allow removal of CO2. Without that large volume of gas, you cannot inflate the lungs and therefore cannot achieve the required surface area at the level of the alveoli needed to allow the necessry gas exchange.
These guys are peddling snake oil.
Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute. 210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute. 210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.Triton are claiming in the Indiegogo answers that the liquid 02 cylinders can be used twice - specifically 2 x 45 minutes. We do not know if there is one or two cylinders used at a time.
All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks.
Click here to see IGG update (link for space reasons)
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute. 210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks.
Click here to see IGG update (link for space reasons)
All of the new campaign still implies it gets the oxygen from the water.
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute. 210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
I know nothing about LOX, but if what you are saying is that 0.25 l of LOX can expand to 210 l of 100% O2 gas at 1atm, that still does not help. In what chamber does that expansion occur? Also, 100% O2 is not a viable gas for respiration.
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate approximately correct.
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate approximately correct.
The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.
QuoteThe sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this the would be doing that..
Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO),
do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?
do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?
Ive been thinking about this as well. The liabilities are huge.
They have to be able to sell it first, and I do not know how they are going to even distribute it.
They cannot mail liquid O2.
Perhaps everyone has to go to Sweden to collect it in person? Or it could be the Triton they say they will deliver will not include any O2.
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way
Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way
Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....
This is my vote
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate approximately correct.
The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.
True, if they have no metering the dive time would go way down and they would have a problem. However, they've said there s a pump in the device, I think it's for metering but don't know. Also their "demo" videos gives the impression of metering.QuoteThe sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this the would be doing that..I accounted for the change of partial pressure (for 15 feet depth) in the calculations using the diving guidelines. It came out to 1.45 ppo2, which is still the allowable range.
The military units are much larger because they have mechanisms to maintain the allowable partial pressure across varying dive depths and probably other gas mixing stuff to prevent decompression problems. Their closed loop, so they have to scrub the co2 as well.Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO),I dont have confidence in them at all. There are other LOX scuba equipment on the market and history (soviet), so it's not impossible to do..... but it's these guys no.do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?
Ive been thinking about this as well. The liabilities are huge.
It might be possible to build a device using LOX, but that device wouldn't use shippable prefilled cylinders. You would have to fill on site, from a proper cryogenic storage system. Liquid oxygen is incredibly dangerous, and not easily available to your average consumer. The easiest way to get it is to accidentally condense it when working with LN2, which can lead to spontaneous fires/explosions.
There was a team working on an amateur-built LOX-rubber hybrid rocket motor. They had issues initially with the LOX spontaneously combusting when contacting residual organics in their fill system, though they clued up and got oxygen-safe parts pretty quickly.
This isn't the sort of thing you're going to haul down to your local gas station to fill like you would a propane tank.
I wonder if its possible they are using some other liquid, and depending on a chemical reaction to produce O2. Chemical oxygen generators are pretty old tech, and they get very hot, possibly requiring a heat exchanger. If you remember the big ValueJet crash in 1996, that was caused by an accidental initiation of an improperly stored oxygen generator, which started a fire (and then fed it with oxygen). Maybe the whole heat exchanger thing is more BS, to explain away why it gets hot without revealing how it works.
Yeah but, how much breathable air can you really get out of small canister like that? Consider those small canisters of NiOx used in whip cream dispensers. *They'll give you two, maybe three complete lung inhales per canister. Now, I know this is liquid NiOx we're talking about, but I can't imagine it being that much more efficient.
*I mean, so I've been told...I would never do Whipits...Drugs are bad, stay in school kids.
In diving, oxygen partial pressure is usually considered safe at around 1.4 ppo2 or below for non extended duration dive times (http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/). At 15ft and 100% o2 the ppo2 is around 1.45 for seawater and less for fresh water.
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute. 210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.
I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.
If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.
Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.
One of the many things that really doesn't make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.
All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.