I've never been a fan, without any particular reason I can recall. I do know that the previous design didn't have room for larger parts (21 mm wide), so that excludes a lot of FPGAs without going to finer pitch BGAs.
I don't recall the details on the IGLOO2 parts, but there's often an issue with the equivalence of LUTs. Also, this part is a bit pricier, $15 @ 1k qty.
Maybe I need to take a fresh look at their parts.
Wow! They can ship 1,600 now, but... "Additional quantities estimated to ship by 16-Apr-2024" They know how to put the "time" in lead-time!
I've never been a fan, without any particular reason I can recall. I do know that the previous design didn't have room for larger parts (21 mm wide), so that excludes a lot of FPGAs without going to finer pitch BGAs.
I don't recall the details on the IGLOO2 parts, but there's often an issue with the equivalence of LUTs. Also, this part is a bit pricier, $15 @ 1k qty.
Maybe I need to take a fresh look at their parts.
Wow! They can ship 1,600 now, but... "Additional quantities estimated to ship by 16-Apr-2024" They know how to put the "time" in lead-time!
The TQG144 package is 20x20mm, worth considering that there is also a small space saving because these FPGAs are non-volatile and don't require an external flash chip.
A Microchip Logic Element is LUT4 so the M2GL010 which has 12,084 LUT4 (roughly equivalent to 8,000 LUT6).
Looks like Mouser have 2,227pcs in stock of the more expensive Industrial temperature grade part.
https://www.mouser.ie/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology-Atmel/M2GL010-TQG144I?qs=pU29NIZ4ZwCkB%252BTNyuGkrw%3D%3D
There look like being some GW1N FPGAs on Mouser at the moment: https://www.mouser.fr/c/semiconductors/programmable-logic-ics/fpga-field-programmable-gate-array/?m=GOWIN%20Semiconductor&instock=y
I was doing a quick scan of the FPGA landscape today just to check current status and found the XC7S15-1FTGB196C at Mouser was expecting a delivery in January! My heart was pounding, until I noticed that was January of 2024!
I was doing a quick scan of the FPGA landscape today just to check current status and found the XC7S15-1FTGB196C at Mouser was expecting a delivery in January! My heart was pounding, until I noticed that was January of 2024!
Don't worry, AMD(Xilinx) sent an email recently where they said that all Spartan 7 and Artix 7 will continue to be available until 2035. That's for your piece of mind If anyone only knew what they mean by "available" ...
I was doing a quick scan of the FPGA landscape today just to check current status and found the XC7S15-1FTGB196C at Mouser was expecting a delivery in January! My heart was pounding, until I noticed that was January of 2024!
Don't worry, AMD(Xilinx) sent an email recently where they said that all Spartan 7 and Artix 7 will continue to be available until 2035. That's for your piece of mind If anyone only knew what they mean by "available" ...That will probably be old stock as everyone has designed them out by now and they can't sell what they produce next year or the year after. I'm ditching Xilinx in favour of FPGA vendors that had and have devices available to buy right now. Probably save quite a bit of money in the process as well.
If Gowin stops, just move to a different vendor. Just make sure that you can move your project to a different vendor easely. There is a lot of choice nowadays triggered by the opensource synthesis tools which takes away the huge investment to write synthesis tools. The devices from Cologne Chip look very interesting and they are based in Germany.
If Gowin stops, just move to a different vendor. Just make sure that you can move your project to a different vendor easely. There is a lot of choice nowadays triggered by the opensource synthesis tools which takes away the huge investment to write synthesis tools. The devices from Cologne Chip look very interesting and they are based in Germany.That is only possible if your designs are relatively simple. If your design requires DDR3/4 memory, uses multi-GB serial links, or PCIE, or other advanced features, forget about vendor-neutrality. And no opensource tools will help you with that.
The solution is complicated but quite comparable with what I'm facing: take all that out of FPGA territory. In a lot of designs stuff is pushed into an FPGA just because it is kind of a catch-all. But it doesn't need to be; if you partition a design differently, you should be able to take large portions of complicated things out of the FPGA and use off-the-shelve chips for those functions. One of the designs I'm working on already went from a $2500 FPGA to a $100 FPGA + $100 companion chips. Next phase is to take the FPGA and split it into a $20 FPGA + four $5 chips. See how the cost savings are adding up as well? At one of my previous employers we split a design for a single FPGA into multiple, smaller FPGAs and ended up with a board that saved 60% on the costs for FPGAs.
The solution is complicated but quite comparable with what I'm facing: take all that out of FPGA territory. In a lot of designs stuff is pushed into an FPGA just because it is kind of a catch-all. But it doesn't need to be; if you partition a design differently, you should be able to take large portions of complicated things out of the FPGA and use off-the-shelve chips for those functions. One of the designs I'm working on already went from a $2500 FPGA to a $100 FPGA + $100 companion chips. Next phase is to take the FPGA and split it into a $20 FPGA + four $5 chips. See how the cost savings are adding up as well? At one of my previous employers we split a design for a single FPGA into multiple, smaller FPGAs and ended up with a board that saved 60% on the costs for FPGAs.Again, that is only possible if your design is relatively slow and doesn't utilize modern high-speed interfaces or features. And you also pay for that by increased complexity of entire design (== higher R&D cost), longer time to market, and lower reliability (more chips == more things to fail == lower reliability). If your design uses any more-or-less modern features like fast DDR memory, you are out of luck.
Many of the modern lower cost FPGAs have DDR memory and high speed interfaces nowadays. It wouldn't make sense to bring a new product to market that doesn't have high speed interfaces. I'm not talking about substituting a modern FPGA with an old CPLD device...
If Gowin stops, just move to a different vendor.
Just make sure that you can move your project to a different vendor easely.
There is a lot of choice nowadays triggered by the opensource synthesis tools which takes away the huge investment to write synthesis tools. The devices from Cologne Chip look very interesting and they are based in Germany.
One of my customers is basically dead in the water due to Xilinx not delivering chips. That is way worse than having to depent on a Chinese manufacturer. And I strongly doubt Chinese manufacturers are going anywhere. In fact, the chips from Chinese manufacturers seem to be least affected by chip shortage so they look like a very safe bet to me when the sh!t hits the fan. Gowin -for example- seems to have their products manufactured in Taiwan by TSMC. The chances of anyone or any country messing with TSMC are zero.
If Gowin stops, just move to a different vendor. Just make sure that you can move your project to a different vendor easely. There is a lot of choice nowadays triggered by the opensource synthesis tools which takes away the huge investment to write synthesis tools. The devices from Cologne Chip look very interesting and they are based in Germany.That is only possible if your designs are relatively simple. If your design requires DDR3/4 memory, uses multi-GB serial links, or PCIE, or other advanced features, forget about vendor-neutrality. And no opensource tools will help you with that.
They have talked more than once about their ability to throw their weight around to get what they need. I can't even get samples.
There are many concerns about buying from Chinese vendors. Buying from most of the far East is not so problematic, but China can be cut off for political reasons. Then there's also the issue of buying parts that will go into systems bought by the US Government. Anyone heard of Huawei?
They have talked more than once about their ability to throw their weight around to get what they need. I can't even get samples.Good luck with that. I've heard that story more than once but have not seen any parts appear out of thin air. The assembler I'm using also does a lot of work for a major supplier of electric distribution parts. It doesn't help. Heck, not even the major car manufacturers can get parts. All you do while waiting for Xilinx parts to appear is fooling around and wasting time wishing life is better. If you want to move products out of the door in this new world, then you need to adapt and get work done. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you can make money.
And no, EMC testing is not an issue where it comes to replacing a part that has zero incluence on EMC behaviour.
A quick test at most and off you go. Unless ofcourse your layout guy is grossly incompetent.
On top of that, a product that has been designed with replacing parts in mind at some point is much easier to modify later on compared to a design that is tightly knit together.
Components can become obsolete even though promises have been made for long term support. Recently a module that one of my customers demanded to use in a design got obsoleted without even the chance of doing a last time buy. I always strongly object to using modules BTW.
There are many concerns about buying from Chinese vendors. Buying from most of the far East is not so problematic, but China can be cut off for political reasons. Then there's also the issue of buying parts that will go into systems bought by the US Government. Anyone heard of Huawei?And how about all the test equipment that is made in China? Can't you use that for development either?
They have talked more than once about their ability to throw their weight around to get what they need. I can't even get samples.Good luck with that. I've heard that story more than once but have not seen any parts appear out of thin air. The assembler I'm using also does a lot of work for a major supplier of electric distribution parts. It doesn't help. Heck, not even the major car manufacturers can get parts. All you do while waiting for Xilinx parts to appear is fooling around and wasting time wishing life is better. If you want to move products out of the door in this new world, then you need to adapt and get work done. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you can make money.
And no, EMC testing is not an issue where it comes to replacing a part that has zero incluence on EMC behaviour.
That's absurd. It's not the part that emits any real EMI, it's the board. To change the FPGA is a major redo of the board layout, likely with different power supplies as well. It would be up to me to certify that nothing significant changed, and there's no way I'm doing that. If they don't want to retest, that's their problem since it's in their product anyway.
But just to be clear, I won't have a choice. If they say no Gowin parts, I pick something else. So this discussion is of no value.QuoteA quick test at most and off you go. Unless ofcourse your layout guy is grossly incompetent.
I don't know what to say to you. That's not how EMI works.QuoteOn top of that, a product that has been designed with replacing parts in mind at some point is much easier to modify later on compared to a design that is tightly knit together.
Tightly knit??? That's of no value in this discussion since you know nothing of the design.
You aren't making sense. Maybe you have not read the many reports of spying on networks by Huawei equipment?
They have talked more than once about their ability to throw their weight around to get what they need. I can't even get samples.Good luck with that. I've heard that story more than once but have not seen any parts appear out of thin air. The assembler I'm using also does a lot of work for a major supplier of electric distribution parts. It doesn't help. Heck, not even the major car manufacturers can get parts. All you do while waiting for Xilinx parts to appear is fooling around and wasting time wishing life is better. If you want to move products out of the door in this new world, then you need to adapt and get work done. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you can make money.
And no, EMC testing is not an issue where it comes to replacing a part that has zero incluence on EMC behaviour.
That's absurd. It's not the part that emits any real EMI, it's the board. To change the FPGA is a major redo of the board layout, likely with different power supplies as well. It would be up to me to certify that nothing significant changed, and there's no way I'm doing that. If they don't want to retest, that's their problem since it's in their product anyway.
But just to be clear, I won't have a choice. If they say no Gowin parts, I pick something else. So this discussion is of no value.QuoteA quick test at most and off you go. Unless ofcourse your layout guy is grossly incompetent.
I don't know what to say to you. That's not how EMI works.QuoteOn top of that, a product that has been designed with replacing parts in mind at some point is much easier to modify later on compared to a design that is tightly knit together.
Tightly knit??? That's of no value in this discussion since you know nothing of the design.Sorry, but these are really poor arguments. An FPGA is sitting somewhere on a circuit board. Typically surrounded by other compoments that deal with I/O and outside world signals. If you leave room on the board to use a different component, it is not much of a problem to switch to a different component. This is PCB design 101 and I have done that in several occasions. However, if you pack the components together so they are tightly knit together, you'll lose any flexibility to alter the design.
Where it comes to EMI: Typically you'll have at least a 4 layer board with a solid ground plane + power planes if you use an FPGA. Each signal to and from the FPGA can have an extremely small loop area because the return path (ground or power plane) is right under the trace. So unless you set the drive strength to maximum and/ or route traces over splits in a plane and/or have high speed signals going into external cables, it is safe to say that a different FPGA won't affect EMI in any way. One of the reasons FPGAs have adjustable drive strengths is to help reduce potential EMI issues. I'm not saying not to re-test but the re-test can be a very quick (and thus cheap) measurement. Nothing to sweat about there. From my experience you really need to screw up the PCB design of a board to make the board itself radiate too much. Where it comes to EMC compliance, wiring is way more problematic.
Power supplies is also straightforward. The FPGA you are after is not a super high-end device so currents are low. If you keep the power supplies close to the FPGA, you can replace these if necessary but likely you can keep the same ones set to slightly different voltages. Bonus points for designing the power supply solution with some flexibility in mind.QuoteYou aren't making sense. Maybe you have not read the many reports of spying on networks by Huawei equipment?This is borderline thin-foil hat conspiracy theorism. Explain how you'd go about spying through a low end FPGA in a random design? At some point you just have to be realistic about the actual risks.