KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)

[SiliconWizard]

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.

Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies.

Have you tried it? And if so, could you maybe post a screenshot of a schematic using a custom font, so we can see how it renders?

[ataradov]

I tried it. Here is an assortment of random fonts. Currently there seems to be a bug where only standard font gets selection highlight outline. So it it impossible to see selected items.

Also, no anti-aliasing, since those labels disappear with AA, at least in my VM, which does not have ideal 3D acceleration.

[SiliconWizard]

Thanks. So for now, it doesn't really help readability and kinda looks like shit. I'm not considering the bugs - of course there will be for a while. But I'm afraid the rendering aspect itself may never really improve unless they make a major modification... (I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)

I understand that the work is tougher for PCB layout (because ultimately it needs to be rendered as just basic vector graphics), but for schematics? Couldn't they just have added text rendering in the schematic editor using *text rendering* and not reusing the underlying graphics engine, which kind of bites? That may not seem a big deal to some, but to me that's a real issue. (To be fair, Eagle schematics look even more horrible - but pretty much all other major EDA manage to do this properly...)

[ataradov]

I would not expect those fonts to be great even when they are done. All it will do is make random schematics look goofy because some people unironically use comic sans.  I personally would prefer improvements in the standard vector font. I feel like Eagle one is somewhat cleaner, although I really don't care. The one that is here now works for me.

One thing you can do is similar to Altium where there is a differentiation between purely graphics items and layout items. You can do Bezier curves in silk screen, but not in copper. And DRC for silk screen does not need to be all that accurate.

Also one thing I noticed is that size control is harder with custom fonts. The same size in points results in different visual heights. So "C6" and "22 uF" have the same size, I only changed the font name. Yet they look very different. So alignment with other schematic elements may be an issue. Probably less of an issue if you stick with one font. "TP6" and "OUT" were on the same level in the original font, but here they are shifted with two different fonts. Edit: Although this one is just the optical effect because of different sizes, baseline is the same.

[ebastler]

(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)

I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?

[ataradov]

I think they are separate to a large extent, but apart from enabling AA, I don't know if this will improve much no matter what. This is very early days, so all this has a chance for improvement, of course.

And judicial use of fonts may make things look ok.

[SiliconWizard]

(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)

I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?

What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.

And, I didn't take a deep look at the source code - especially recently - but this would be my guess that the graphics engine for drawing schematics and PCBs is essentially the same, or at least with a large chunk of common stuff.

[ebastler]

What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.

Thanks, I had not realized. I have been assuming all along that eeschema and pcbnew came from different origins since their user interfaces feel so different. (Different command letters for equivalent commands, different logic for commands with/without prior selection etc.).

Is a "history of KiCad" document available anywhere, or interviews with the original creator or early contributors? I'd be curious to learn more but did not find much during a quick search.

[ataradov]

And I think I need to clarify, Test Label Text and LBMxxxx are written in goofy fonts, font rendering is not that bad The jagged lines from no AA or subpixel rendering is all there though.

[SiliconWizard]

What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.

Thanks, I had not realized. I have been assuming all along that eeschema and pcbnew came from different origins since their user interfaces feel so different. (Different command letters for equivalent commands, different logic for commands with/without prior selection etc.).

The real divergence is relatively "new" - comes from the overhaul KiCad got when the CERN invested in it. Yes, it's been years now, but there was a KiCad before the CERN.
They have also focused more on the layout editor, probably because it was what would really make KiCad take off and stand out.

And you can imagine, even though they have put a lot of work in it, that there still is a log of legacy code and data structures.

A very short history can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KiCad
Basically, that was the work of one university professor for years (with occasional contributions) before the CERN invested in it.

[SiliconWizard]

And I think I need to clarify, Test Label Text and LBMxxxx are written in goofy fonts, font rendering is not that bad The jagged lines from no AA or subpixel rendering is all there though.

I personally find this relatively ugly and hard to read - again especially at lower zoom levels. But sure I am pretty hard to please when it comes to GUI in general, and editors in particular.

Certainly, if you're one of those who can't tell that Eagle schematics look terrible (in particular for the lack of antialiasing, and questionable symbols), I can understand it's not a problem for you.

If you want to see what decent schematic rendering looks like - Altium is a good start.

Interestingly, one of the best looking schematic editor is the humble sPlan - unfortunately, it is way, way less featureful otherwise, and doesn't export to any usable format other than graphics, at least that I know of. But that gives an idea about what can be achieved with limited means. That's close to publishing-quality schematics, but I personally see no reason a decent schematic editor should be any less than this. Just MHO of course. But just so you know what I mean.

[ataradov]

Certainly, if you're one of those who can't tell that Eagle schematics look terrible (in particular for the lack of antialiasing, and questionable symbols), I can understand it's not a problem for you.

I like how Eagle schematics look like, so obviously it is all a matter of personal preference.

If you want to see what decent schematic rendering looks like - Altium is a good start.

I've seen plenty of shitty schematics done in Altium. That's  where my concern with allowing custom fonts comes from.

I do like to see improvements in standard fonts, of course. By no means they are ideal. But I would not call them horrible either.

But also, I hate AA in general. If there are pixels, I want to see them. All my system fonts set to no AA or blurring of any kind.

[delfinom]

I tried it. Here is an assortment of random fonts. Currently there seems to be a bug where only standard font gets selection highlight outline. So it it impossible to see selected items.

Also, no anti-aliasing, since those labels disappear with AA, at least in my VM, which does not have ideal 3D acceleration.

* Unfinished implementation

It is the nightly after all aka unreleased interim build. It'll take some time for it to get ironed out. The old concepts of "single fonts" needs to be dissected and replaced in various places with the new abstraction.

[delfinom]

Also one thing I noticed is that size control is harder with custom fonts. The same size in points results in different visual heights. So "C6" and "22 uF" have the same size, I only changed the font name. Yet they look very different. So alignment with other schematic elements may be an issue. Probably less of an issue if you stick with one font. "TP6" and "OUT" were on the same level in the original font, but here they are shifted with two different fonts. Edit: Although this one is just the optical effect because of different sizes, baseline is the same.

Editing properties of say, all the text on a PCB to the same font and size should get easier later in v7. We are moving to a properties pane ala Altium for everything

[delfinom]

Thanks. So for now, it doesn't really help readability and kinda looks like shit. I'm not considering the bugs - of course there will be for a while. But I'm afraid the rendering aspect itself may never really improve unless they make a major modification... (I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)

It comes down to fonts.
Serif fonts will always look awful. Standard San Serif fonts your mileage will vary. What you really want is to use Monospace programmer fonts.

Attached are the "KiCad Font" vs. the "Cascadia Code" microsoft font for programming compared on the same schematic section

[3roomlab]

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.

Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies. Only 3d viewer support is lacking and some bug fixes over time needed.

any idea about inclusion of korean/japanese fonts ?

[delfinom]

Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.

Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.

Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies. Only 3d viewer support is lacking and some bug fixes over time needed.

any idea about inclusion of korean/japanese fonts ?

Just use a unicode font?

[SiliconWizard]

Thanks delfinom, that definitely looks better than what I feared =)

[nctnico]

(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)

I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?

What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.

And, I didn't take a deep look at the source code - especially recently - but this would be my guess that the graphics engine for drawing schematics and PCBs is essentially the same, or at least with a large chunk of common stuff.

Likely none of the original code exists today  As part of a small team I've been working on an inherited project as well for a couple of years and by now I think we have touched about 95% of the original code.

[Cerebus]

Hmm, looks like the macOS builds of the nightlies have been failing for the last 19 days. I wanted to grab the latest 6.99 to look at the font stuff and the cupboard was empty - no nightlies at all. The font stuff hadn't made it into the nightlies for the last macOS build of 6.99 that was available before xmas (and which is now missing too).

[delfinom]

Hmm, looks like the macOS builds of the nightlies have been failing for the last 19 days. I wanted to grab the latest 6.99 to look at the font stuff and the cupboard was empty - no nightlies at all. The font stuff hadn't made it into the nightlies for the last macOS build of 6.99 that was available before xmas (and which is now missing too).

macOS unforunately is a one man operation and he is busy. And Apple keeps changing stuff as they slowly lock down macOS into iOS

[Bassman59]

(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)

I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?

What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.

And, I didn't take a deep look at the source code - especially recently - but this would be my guess that the graphics engine for drawing schematics and PCBs is essentially the same, or at least with a large chunk of common stuff.

Actually -- originally schematic and PCB were two entirely separate programs. None of the features we take for granted (like clicking a footprint and having the schematic zoom to the corresponding symbol) were possible.

Work on PCB moved forward to take advantage of things like OpenGL and better rendering and speed and such. Schematic was not modernized as such. The two remained separate, with different rendering and all. This was the case with Kicad 4 and earlier "releases."

Kicad 5 was the first release that moved Schematic forward to OpenGL and put it on par with PCB. This was a development goal: make schematic and PCB work the same and work well together, like the Kiway messaging between the two so that selection feature I mentioned would work. (I think that existed prior to 5, I don't remember.)

Kicad 6 is much more evolved -- part symbols are finally embedded in the schematic instead of being referenced to the originating libraries, for example. Using 6 now I see that from the user's perspective it really is one program, with two views of the design (schematic, layout).

Thing is: this is all what the users have wanted since forever (other than a different library system, on which there is never going to be an agreement about "what is best."). The biggest complaints were that schematic and PCB were separate and obviously so!

Anyway.

[delfinom]

Depending on how things go. The standalone executables for schematic and pcb may be gone on v7 if you want to talk about complete merge of the two tools

[SiliconWizard]

Anyway, point was not about the tools being separate executables, but the fact they probably share a significant chunk of code, in particular for the graphics rendering. They may have diverged a bit for the OpenGL backend while eeschema didn't have it yet, but otherwise there's probably a lot in common. delfinom can confirm that.

And, if you want to merge the two in one executable, why not. But I liked being able to edit a layout without a schematic attached (but just its netlist), so as long as you keep that possibility, I'm fine with whatever.

[Bassman59]

Anyway, point was not about the tools being separate executables, but the fact they probably share a significant chunk of code, in particular for the graphics rendering. They may have diverged a bit for the OpenGL backend while eeschema didn't have it yet, but otherwise there's probably a lot in common. delfinom can confirm that.

Please re-read what I wrote.

In the beginning there was no code shared between PCB and schematic. Kicad 5 was the first version where there was a lot of sharing, because that was when the schematic side had OpenGL. Kicad 6 is "unified," if you will.