Author Topic: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000  (Read 1420877 times)

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Offline hgg

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #500 on: February 17, 2014, 05:21:27 pm »
Excuse my ignorance, but is the LTZ1000 a reference that you have to calibrate in the beginning,
but after that it will keep its calibration for a long time?

In the datasheet of the MAX6325, it lists the output voltage to be between 2.499 & 2.501
 

Offline hgg

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #501 on: February 17, 2014, 06:39:44 pm »
Hello Ken,

Very detailed explanation.   Thank you!

 

Offline casinada

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #502 on: February 17, 2014, 06:40:50 pm »
Doug @ http://www.voltagestandard.com/ still sell some nice products. with 2 year free calibration
 

Offline hgg

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #503 on: February 17, 2014, 06:47:57 pm »
Geller Voltage Reference : better than +/- .0005% absolute (+/- 5 ppm)    Wow, that's accurate!
Pitty he stopped producing them.
 

Offline CaptnYellowShirt

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #504 on: February 18, 2014, 01:32:26 am »

Do you know what is the initial %accuracy of the LTZ1000?
I cannot find any info in the data sheet.  Only its stability of 0.05ppm/C is emphasized. 

I've bought a MAX6325 1ppm/C 2.5V reference with a 0.02% initial accuracy.
How does it compare with the LTZ1000 in terms of initial accuracy?

Table 6.7 in "The Art of Electronics" lists the LTZ1000's accuracy at 4%.
 

Offline babysitter

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #505 on: February 18, 2014, 07:37:13 pm »
Just to expose what got me started on this subject: A REF194AG transportable standard.
Unfortunately, it was not sucessful to export the Volt from my workplace DMM to my home DMM.

With the LTZ it is...



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Offline babysitter

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #506 on: February 18, 2014, 08:21:04 pm »
All three are available - this is the one I lend to people with low-digit meters saying it is ok for 4.500 V +/- 5 mV,
the LTZ is doing very very well and circulates between me and frank,
otherwise it is really used, often with a kvd to null out voltages or generate low voltages and stuff, i almost think it is the only one used for stuff here. :)

A battery powered LM399 reference was born a few weeks ago. Not really figured out how well i did it yet, but also ok for backpack transfer.

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Offline babysitter

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #507 on: February 18, 2014, 10:33:20 pm »
I found out the reason that most <= 6.5 digit DMM manufacturers still use the LM399 (as opposed to the provably more stable LTZ1000) is that the LM399 exhibits remarkably low hysteresis between power cycles-- and the LTZ1000 may actually have more (without some kind of [proprietary] "pre-conditioning" process).  So, for a bench meter that gets used day-to-day (and sometimes in "non-laboratory" environments), the LM399 is a better choice.

The LM399 is absolutely fabulous for short-term work, but as you probably already know, it takes over 10 years of operation to reach ~1ppm/year stability-- so for very long-term stability, the LTZ1000 is the preferred device.  From what I understand, the DMM manufacturers have racks full of LM399's that they "burn in" for a very long time before they are used in a final assembly.  Some manufacturers (like Fluke) burn them in much longer than others (Rigol, Keithley-- with Agilent/Keysight somewhere in the middle).  That's also why very old DMM's (like the HP3457A) can be scary-stable-- their reference (and the cheap metal film resistors they used in the design) have had decades to become very stable.

The LM399 might also be used because of a pricing decision, not only on the part itself but by the required support circuitry and mechanics (dont forget the mold for a injection molded cap which is already shipped with and mounted at the 399 but strongly sugessted for serious LTZ application), while matching to what you usually want from a 6.5 digit device. I am quite happy with my HP3456A at home and the 34401As at work.

What I dislike about the LM399 it is the FLUKEing very hot temperature setpoint - of course required to use it all over the world even in crammed racks without aircon, but here in mild climate of germany I wouldnt mind if it is anything above 40°C. the fridge with ice packs is close, for those rare very hot days.

The REF194AG reference was made because parts laying around, easily good enough for 3 digit meters but frustrating for transfer from work to home - the backpack trip of 20 minutes has thrown it off for more than 1 mV in any direction. But it is very small and handy as you see.

The LTZ1000A was selected because part available on ebay and known to be a instant near-perfect device without any hassle. I tried to keep out most voodo which doesn't appear inside the datasheet but at the omniscient landfill aka the internet. It works well, it travelled from home to work to hobby room and back, to Dr. Frank and another guy. My cheap and lazy open source design is good enough as shown by Frank that it attracted other people already; selling leftover PCBs helped mitigate the part costs a bit :) And in the short time since its birth, it did very well.

The LTZ reference even gets some non-meter-and-references-comparing exercise, e.g. I do internal calibration of some 34401A and (painful) 34405A at work; when one of the main meters come back from calibration, I use those fresh ones to check some lower-class meters which we need only in certain ranges; which I can do with a Dekavider. Also, during testing sensor front-ends i like to use the LTZ and the dekavider. Either to inject a voltage via a buffer, or null out some voltages.

The LM399 was more or less an afterthought as I felt that I skipped an important step. This is now a battery-powered reference; only the standard application again, a battery undervoltage monitor and again cheap and lazy.

When the babies allow it, I will compare the buried zener devices against each other sometimes, and against the workplace DMMs, and Dr. Frank had my LTZ two times for now. All my refs are allowed to travel :)


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Offline CaptnYellowShirt

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #508 on: February 19, 2014, 05:59:24 am »
Check out TiN's awesome teardown of a Keithley 2002 complete with several choice pictures of the LTZ.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley-2002-8-5-digit-dmm-review-and-teardown/
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #509 on: February 19, 2014, 09:03:57 pm »
Hello Ken,

why do you use the LTC1144 instead of a LTC1043 for voltage division?

Ok it is faster in settling time due to the higher frequency.

But since it is designed for power supply applications the charge transfer of the switches is not specified.
On the other side I can remember that a standard charge pump has only about 10ppm stability against 1ppm of the LTC1043.

With best regards

Andreas
 

Offline branadic

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #510 on: February 19, 2014, 10:34:59 pm »
Quote
Check out TiN's awesome teardown of a Keithley 2002 complete with several choice pictures of the LTZ.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley-2002-8-5-digit-dmm-review-and-teardown/

Interesting pictures, especially the LTC1043 section. They used 680nF Mylar caps by Cornell Dubilier with 5mm grid.
Also interesting is the way the did the shielding. On the lower LTC1043 you can see a guard trace around pin5 and pin18 that is running all the way to the noninverting input of LTC1050. On the upper LTC1034 there is no such a guard trace on any pin.
The bottom view of the pcb shows another interesting point. They surrounded the cap with the signal of pin3 around pin2 on both LTC1043 with the traces coated, but upper and lower layout are different in that particular case.
Would be interesting to know in what configuration they use the switched capacitor building blocks.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 10:37:00 pm by branadic »
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Offline Andreas

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #511 on: February 20, 2014, 05:34:33 am »
Honestly, I don't know which is better in this application-- the LTC1043 or the LTC1144. 

When looking at the datasheet: the LTC1144 operates only at voltages > 4V in this application.
I.e. if it is sufficient for you that the output voltage range is limited to 4..10V you can use the LTC1144 too.
The LTC1043 has a seperate power supply pin and is not restricted with input voltage.
But when you want to use full accuracy of the LTC1043 you will have to increase the integrator time constant. (R1/C4).
According to my tests you should not deviate from the around 450 Hz switching frequency which are set by the 10nF capacitor on the LTC1043.

With best regards

Andreas
 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #512 on: February 25, 2014, 05:22:27 am »
Certainly a nice reduction in the number of primo resistors! You're really close to the output current limit of the 2057, aren't you? Were you able to divine the heater's temp co from the datasheet, or did you experiment?

I presume you're going with the LTZ1000A so that its temperature changes less as the room temperature changes?  Any idea how much it will vary with 1C room temp change? 

My amateur attempts at a stable TCE have only yielded 0.1C regulation thus far (with ambient changing by 4C), so perhaps I'll be able to learn more on that from this thread, too :)
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Offline CaptnYellowShirt

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #513 on: February 25, 2014, 05:23:39 am »
This might seem counter-productive to have a heater inside of a refrigerator, but it is the best way to give the LTZ1000A the best chance at long-term stability.  The only way I can see around this is to run the LTZ1000 at cryogenic temperatures-- like in liquid nitrogen (LN2).  This would result in an absolutely stable temperature, because the LN2 always boils at a specific temperature-- and so the LTZ1000 would be kept at this temperature.  You are not going to get much colder than LN2 (well, unless you can afford liquid helium, and if you can afford that-- then you can afford a JJA), and so I would expect the drift rate of the LTZ1000 to be at it's minimum under these conditions.  But-- who can afford LN2 to "play" with?

It's six months past said, but here it is: my first experiment with LN2...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/the-cryogenic-p-n-junction/
 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #514 on: February 25, 2014, 08:27:08 am »
No, the LTC2057 will output quite a bit of current-- see the data-sheet.

I'm seeing 19mA min, 30mA typ for short circuit current with a 30V supply...  Oh, derp: I misread your schematic.  Sorry.

Quote
Note what I said in the message-- this is intended for a TCE.
Since the TCE is going to be stabilizing the temperature of some thermocouple or something, and not the temperature of the LTZ1000, then the die temperature of the LTZ1000 will vary as the TCE varies the Q it's moving.  The change in temperature of the LTZ1000 will be less than the change in room temperature; how much less depends on more factors than I know, so I was asking about it ;)  You're clearly allowing for it to vary some, or you wouldn't bother with the temperature feedback in the zener current.

It's a neat idea using the heater as a temperature sensor instead of a heater.
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Offline fmaimon

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #515 on: February 25, 2014, 09:54:06 pm »
Can't you use Jim Williams circuit from Linear AN45 page 7 to find out the Vbe x temperature relationship? Won't be as accurate as your method but will get you in the right ballpark.
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #516 on: February 26, 2014, 09:08:08 pm »
Hello Ken,

wow, your cirquit proposal is far away from being usual.
I am very eager to hear from measurement results when you have built your samples.

Just to look if I have understood it right.
The pull up R2 + the heater resistor are in parallel and give around 100 Ohms. They are in series with the 7.2V zener so this will give around 0.5V more output voltage than the usual 7.2V (i.e. a total of around 7.7V).

R2 + heater are now directly adding to the output voltage with a rejection of around 15:1 against the >100:1 relation of the datasheet circuit for the resistors. So any drift of the both resistors will add significantly to the output stability. The temperature drift will be compensated. (as per design). So the ageing drift and the hysteresis of the 2 resistors has to be tracked carefully. A typical "shelf life" drift of a Z201 resistor of 25ppm/year would shift the output voltage by 1.67 ppm/year. So this resistor has shurely to be significantly better.
What kind of resistor did you plan for R2?

Further some questions arise:
- Do you have any ageing data for the silicon resistor of the heater?
  As heater it is negligible since it is part of a regulation loop in the datasheet circuit.
  As compensation resistor any change will affect output voltage by around 1:50 of the heater resistor drift.

- Is there any known hysteresis for the silicon resistor?
  Since it spans the largest area on the chip without any compensation patterns a hysteresis might be likely.
  (Just in case your battery power gets lost during transport).

- how is the output impedance affected by the series resistor?
  the dynamic impedance of the datasheet cirquit is "specced" with around 5 Ohms for the refamp cirquit.
  If the impedance is higher leakage currents of the buffer amplifiers + pcb material have to be observed.

- How will the diode connected transistors perform?
  In the datasheet the only specification is for a collector current of around 100uA. Nothing is given for 5mA.
  Will the long term stability still be the same for a 50 fold current?

I have still not understood the current stabilisation. (There is no direct measurement of the zener current.) Only that the relation R2+R3 has to do something with it. I hope that there will be no thermal run away. And also hope that there is no current overshoot when switching on/off of the reference.

What function has the cirquit R1+R4+D1? Is it only to ensure start up of the circuit?

So I think you are right: there is much to learn + explore if leaving the usual path.

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline fmaimon

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #517 on: February 26, 2014, 11:39:03 pm »
In AN45-p7, JW is using the delta-current method, which is great if you want to use any random NPN transistor as a sensor, and you only need +/-1C accuracy.  The problem is that *IF* you are going to use the JW LTZ circuit "as is", then you need to know what voltage to set the divider to, so that you can get the die temperature you want-- and this requires knowing the slope and offset of the Q2 temp-sensor transistor inside the LTZ.  My method will yield (typically) 0.25C accuracy (because the transistor response is not exactly linear).  Knowing the absolute value for Q2 Vbe at the die temperature you want, plus the actual Zener output voltage (after TempCo compensation) is the only way I know of accurately selecting the divider values.  As I wrote before, if you don't want to do all of this precision work for *each* LTZ you are going to use-- then just set the divider to 13K:1K, which will set the LTZ die temperature to 10C higher than it needs to be-- but will guarantee that the heater control circuit has enough "headroom" for proper control [up to 35C ambient] just in case the particular LTZ you are using is 10C lower than the average one.  If you do this, you will have to accept [for the average LTZ] about *double* the long-term drift rate than you otherwise would if you want to do the actual work.

You can still use JW circuit. Read the temperature and vbe with the heater turned off. Turn on the heater slightly, wait for the temperature to stabilize and read another data point. Now you have you two points to calibrate your slope.
 

Offline Blackart

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #518 on: March 01, 2014, 12:10:44 am »
Thanks DilligentMinds

The LTC2997 is interesting , sounds like a ideal way of conditioning the LTC1000s they are around $5 at farewell/element etc. The data sheet says the accuracy is based on the "Ideality Factor" of the junction being tested. They are designed for a generic 3904 NPN but sound like they would only be a few degrees C off, if the factor for the specific device is NOT known ( good enough for a burn in bench I would think ). I found a link here to measuring it http://www.bentongue.com/xtalset/16MeaDio/16MeaDio.html. Im not sure Ill go that far for burning in, but this would be better than my previous idea of just strapping a temp sensor to the LTC100 case. I might get a few while I await my refs to arrive.

Has anyone out there measured the "Ideality Factor" of the junctions in the LTC1000s already ?

Lucas
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #519 on: March 01, 2014, 08:23:55 am »
Hello Ken,

yes I have some questions.

The LT1013 has up to 2mV influence over a 50 degree temperature span on the output voltage of the LTZ1000.
Additional the LT1013 is no longer available in a hermetically case (at least from LT).
It would be interesting if Bob agrees that replacing the LT1013 by the LTC2057 (lower offset drift, lower ageing, higher gain) will improve performance of the cirquit.

Is there any "zero TC current" on the LTZ1000 as it can be observed with 1N829A Zeners?

The best chip of LT after the LM399 is the LT1027. When will it be sold in a hermetically package again? (or will I still have to use the AD586 chips?)

With best regards

Andreas




 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #520 on: March 01, 2014, 08:38:35 am »
Hello Ken,

my questions to LT:

- do they think, that their TO package is hermetically tight, regarding oxygen and humidity, and did they fill it with an inert gas?
- What was the purpose of the A version: lower heating loss for application at higher temperatures (> 60°C) only?
- What do they know / have measured concerning drifts to possible thermally induced stress as torsion of the package, and possible strain effects on the solder junctions or the internal junctions. Is there any advantage of the A version over the non A version in this regard?
- Have they made some stability tests (over time) at lower temperatures, i.e between  40 an 60°C, as implied by Spreadbury and Pickering?
- Are the LTZ1000 and the LTFLU similar chips concerning Si-structure of the buried zener and transistor, so that they both have similar stability figures? (I know that's an indiscrete question)
- Is the LTFLU available from LT on demand?

THX Frank
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:41:50 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline CaptnYellowShirt

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #521 on: March 02, 2014, 07:01:20 pm »

- do they think, that their TO package is hermetically tight, regarding oxygen and humidity, and did they fill it with an inert gas?



+1
 

Offline quantumvolt

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #522 on: March 02, 2014, 11:46:41 pm »
Proposed question to Bob Dobkin:

LTC has hundreds of demo boards  http://www.linear.com/demo. Many of them use LT1236 and LTC6655.

I suggest a dedicated LTZ1000 10/5/2.5/1.0 V Voltage Reference Board. LTC has the chip and op amps as well as the LTC1043 and the LT5400. With a few components sourced elsewhere, ageing and calibration - this board will eliminate the need of finding very expensive boards from HP3458A.

Combined with an educational user manual / litterature reference / application note in the spirit of the late Jim Williams, this board will imo add great independent value to the metrology hobbyist / volt-nut community.

(Edit: LT1043 to LTC1043)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:55:01 pm by quantumvolt »
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #523 on: March 03, 2014, 04:33:45 am »
Such board would be still few hundreds USD, as usually expensive part is aging and calibration, as it requires huge time investments.
And most of volt-nuts built their own boards for specific needs anyway.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000
« Reply #524 on: March 03, 2014, 04:43:40 am »
Ken, please try to invite Bob to join this forum, and show him this particular thread (> 600 posts now  :o), hopefully he will do that once he noticed the huge discussion only for this special chip alone.

Its worth a shot, imo.


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