Forum Moderation

[Nominal Animal]

We could send a PM to the poster as to why a post was removed, and this sometimes happens, but that takes a lot of extra time and effort to do this. And then you often get into a private argument over it wasting even more time and effort.

This is the only thing I might wish would change; I personally would value such PM's extremely highly.

You see, I really want to be a positive contribution here, but because 1) I use English socially extremely rarely, basically only online; and 2) I have wonky social skills, sometimes my posts may warrant editing or deletion.  I need the critical feedback to do better, and would definitely try.  I do not post delete-worthy posts intentionally or on purpose.  I'm 100% sure at least one of my posts has been deleted, but I have no idea which one or why, so I have no idea where I went wrong.  Others may feel that the reasons for the deletion are and have been obvious, but that is not the case for me.  I suspect there may be many other members who feel similarly and would also try to do better given such a message.

Then again, I fully understand the extra time and effort needed.  A one-liner (similar to that left in some posts) would suffice, and I was hoping the SM post moderation would make that easy, but if it doesn't, even I'm leaning more towards "silent" deletion.  Perhaps the best option, in theory, would be not a PM but a diagnostic list of deleted posts and reasons without a visible moderator name, to discourage discussion about them, but allowing the members affected to learn from their errors?  As it is, the current tools seem to not make this sufficiently easy, or worthwhile, overall.

Defining a "problematic post" is the toughest moderation job, in the absence of context.

Absolutely.  I know I couldn't be an effective moderator myself; I just don't see things the way most people do.  I do occasionally try to step in to defuse and point out misunderstandings and such, but when things get heated, just leaving and discussing something else elsewhere seems to be the only thing that works, really.

[EEVblog]

FYI, Joe has not logged back in in two days since his last post in that thread.

[madires]

You see, I really want to be a positive contribution here, but because 1) I use English socially extremely rarely, basically only online; and 2) I have wonky social skills, sometimes my posts may warrant editing or deletion.  I need the critical feedback to do better, and would definitely try.

This might be off-topic, but I think it could be a good idea to have a forum section for improving the English skills of non-native speakers/writers. And for asking about EE related terminology.

[Nominal Animal]

You see, I really want to be a positive contribution here, but because 1) I use English socially extremely rarely, basically only online; and 2) I have wonky social skills, sometimes my posts may warrant editing or deletion.  I need the critical feedback to do better, and would definitely try.

This might be off-topic, but I think it could be a good idea to have a forum section for improving the English skills of non-native speakers/writers. And for asking about EE related terminology.

Exactly how you propose we do it?  Syntax and grammar is easy, subtext and predicting how others will read any given sentence difficult.  It's easy when everyone is calm and focused on the technical problem(s) at hand; difficult when people take things personally.

I believe practice is the only thing that helps.

[jpanhalt]

In Australia, everyone's a cunt. 

I nominate Dave as the new EEVBlog Minister of English.

[floobydust]

FYI, Joe has not logged back in in two days since his last post in that thread.

As I saw it, you reprimanded him but not the other guy. Joe was returning fire while also trying to point out the technical (ESR) measurement clash.
It seemed unfair, biased. Not that he is any saint, but I think just scold both and see if they stop it or not.

In the Wild West we could go to the corral and settle it with six-shooters. Even potato guns are banned now.

[EEVblog]

In Australia, everyone's a cunt. 

I nominate Dave as the new EEVBlog Minister of English.

Yesterday I couldn't even spell engineer, and now I are one.

[EEVblog]

As I saw it, you reprimanded him but not the other guy. Joe was returning fire while also trying to point out the technical (ESR) measurement clash.
It seemed unfair, biased. Not that he is any saint, but I think just scold both and see if they stop it or not.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants mocking a fellow users potential terminal illness, and continued to do so after being told to stop by the person in question. I don't care what was said to provoke it.
Also, no other post from anyone else was reported.
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse that can be said to someone as a personal attack.

[ebastler]

FYI, Joe has not logged back in in two days since his last post in that thread.

So he is giving himself a bit of time to cool off; that's good. He might be following this or other threads without being logged in, of course.

[EEVblog]

So he is giving himself a bit of time to cool off; that's good. He might be following this or other threads without being logged in, of course.

He just released a new video 14 hours ago, so he's not on holidays. So I'd suspect, yes, taking a break from the forum.

[vk6zgo]

As I saw it, you reprimanded him but not the other guy. Joe was returning fire while also trying to point out the technical (ESR) measurement clash.
It seemed unfair, biased. Not that he is any saint, but I think just scold both and see if they stop it or not.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants mocking a fellow users potential terminal illness, and continued to do so after being told to stop by the person in question. I don't care what was said to provoke it.
Also, no other post from anyone else was reported.
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse that can be said to someone as a personal attack.

Joe has a bad habit of pontificating on a subject & if someone points out a counter example, going into "sneering mode".
He doesn't seem to like anyone with an Amateur Radio callsign, so G0HZU's nickname was probably enough to trigger him.

I had a "run-in" with him on a thread about Hams & Bird wattmeters, & built up quite a head of steam, before I decided that it wasn't worth my time.
I think many people  make the same decision, as much of his material is excellent, so we can ignore the "dummy spits".

[RoGeorge]

Most important rule that make this forum great is "be nice with the other nerds, and no personal attacks no matter what":

1) Play nice with the other nerds
2) No personal attacks. This is the biggest rule on this forum. If you don't follow it, you are not welcome here.

The technical mistakes in anybody's posts are irrelevant, but just to make it clear, G0HZU was correct when he wrote:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/do-i-misunderstand-esr-measurement-frequency-dependence-of-esr/msg6062647/#msg6062647

It is possible to find out the ESR by measuring 3 AC voltages with a normal DMM.  No need to measure the phase, because the phase can be deduced from the value of the 3 measured voltages.  This method is not obvious, at first I've also told to myself "but how?", and only later realized the method is possible, after thinking of the phasor diagram representation of the 3 measured voltages in that series RC circuit.

In short, G0HZU wrote it is technically possible to find ESR and C of a capacitor with nothing but a DMM, a generator and a helping series resistor, and a little bit of math.  Others wrote this method is technically impossible.  Then, the "your method is impossible" was shifted to "your method is impractical", but instead of admitting that G0HZU was correct, the flame got even more violent in the next couple of days.

I guess the planets were misaligned or something, because from the "I am correct, while you are not" to mocking the illness and hospitalization of the guy who was correct, was a surreal escalation. 


The moderation was necessary, and correct.  Closing that topic after 7 pages of technical squirrel and personal attacks was the only sane thing to do.

[madires]

This might be off-topic, but I think it could be a good idea to have a forum section for improving the English skills of non-native speakers/writers. And for asking about EE related terminology.

Exactly how you propose we do it?  Syntax and grammar is easy, subtext and predicting how others will read any given sentence difficult.  It's easy when everyone is calm and focused on the technical problem(s) at hand; difficult when people take things personally.

In a Q&A style, e.g.:
- me: how would you express ... ?
- you: you could say ...

I believe practice is the only thing that helps.

... after learning the basics.

[MK14]

There is absolutely nothing that warrants mocking a fellow users potential terminal illness, and continued to do so after being told to stop by the person in question. I don't care what was said to provoke it.
Also, no other post from anyone else was reported.
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse that can be said to someone as a personal attack.

(Technically speaking, when it is just talk, I agree with you, but in another sense ...) There are worse things, they can say (because of real-life threats against other people).  It seems to have already happened on this forum, and you banned (permanently, apparently), the person who did it.

A user with IIRC thousands of posts, and a very large number of threads they had started.  Went completely off the rails (extremely angry/upset), and threatened to post troubling things about other users here (including me, IIRC), on their own website.

Here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/cheapo-clock-tear-up/msg3924245/#msg3924245

[Nominal Animal]

I believe practice is the only thing that helps.

... after learning the basics.

What are you implying? -

As I see it, most of the disagreements I see can be divided into 1) nitpicking (pointing out unimportant details), 2) misunderstandings (culture-dependent phrasing, associations, connotations on terms), and 3) refusal to admit being wrong because among nontechnical people that reduces your believability/professionalism/face.  The first one is best defused by admitting up front it is a nit and/or unimportant, but might be useful in some variant of the same/similar problem.  The last one is what makes me leave a forum.  The middle one is the difficult one.

In the Beginner forum, we can often see the language- and newness-related problems, which can be simplified as "how to ask a question effectively".  I do believe that we could post a hundred good posts advising on that, but the issue is that the majority of those that have such problems are just not interested in reading any posting advice.  Those that "lurk" first to get a feel for the forum, tend to fit in sooner or later, after finding their own "voice", the way to communicate with others at the level and tone they believe appropriate, with just a few hiccups on the way.  I find these very easy to deal with myself in others, so don't think those hiccups warrant any action at all; it's similar to the short initial tentative adjustment period whenever you start talking technical stuff with anyone, and thus expected and normal (because you don't know their background, expertise, strengths, weak points, et cetera).

As to moderation action, I do believe taking a few days or weeks off when one determines oneself needs to adjust one's own output or communications preferences/settings/attitude/whatchamacallit, is a good, positive thing.  There does not (should not!) be any negative emotions involved; it's more like a combined holiday and re-tuning period.

Thus, if I personally start to skirt the boundary where my posts are more harm than help, I do wish someone throws me a PM about it, if only as a heads-up as to how the post reads.  I admit to having solicited some advice about it from several members here when I'm unsure, too.

I wonder if that, sending a PM to a member we're friendly with, when one of their posts starts skirting the line too close for comfort, could/should be encouraged to become part of the culture here?  To reduce the need for actual moderation actions?  I haven't moderated online discussions so I don't know if it would work for all/most/for the majority, though.

[madires]

... after learning the basics.

What are you implying? -

What I mean by basics is vocabulary, grammar and so on. These are essential to be able to dive into practicing.

As I see it, most of the disagreements I see can be divided into 1) nitpicking (pointing out unimportant details), 2) misunderstandings (culture-dependent phrasing, associations, connotations on terms), and 3) refusal to admit being wrong because among nontechnical people that reduces your believability/professionalism/face.

I see also regularly the XY problem (asking about an assumed solution instead of discussing the root cause) and Dunning-Kruger effect at work (looking for confirmation instead of advice). We can only spot those problematic posts and respond accordingly (or stay away). We can't fix people. Sometimes it could help to ask questions to get the OP to start thinking while any advice would be turned down.

Regarding your other comments I agree that reading several threads before starting to post helps. A tutor/mentor concept (on request) would be great, but who has time for that?

[RoGeorge]

This might be off-topic, but I think it could be a good idea to have a forum section for improving the English skills of non-native speakers/writers. And for asking about EE related terminology.

Exactly how you propose we do it?  Syntax and grammar is easy, subtext and predicting how others will read any given sentence difficult.  It's easy when everyone is calm and focused on the technical problem(s) at hand; difficult when people take things personally.

In a Q&A style, e.g.:
- me: how would you express ... ?
- you: you could say ...

Learning English from a friend reminds my how Laci teach me that "lofos" means "thank you" in Hungarian (it doesn't mean that, it's a swearing word), so I shook hands with everybody else at the table, while respectfully saying to them:  "lofos", "lofos", "lofos"... 


Funny language/cultural barriers:

Rush Hour 3 - He is Mi and I am Yu
Triple T Gaming


Please give me coke
No BS Life Guide


THE DICTATOR - Official Clip - "Helicopter Ride"
RepublicOfWadiya


Biggus Dickus - Monty Python, Life of Brian.
Maru8ball

[floobydust]

As I saw it, you reprimanded him but not the other guy. Joe was returning fire while also trying to point out the technical (ESR) measurement clash.
It seemed unfair, biased. Not that he is any saint, but I think just scold both and see if they stop it or not.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants mocking a fellow users potential terminal illness, and continued to do so after being told to stop by the person in question. I don't care what was said to provoke it.
Also, no other post from anyone else was reported.
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse that can be said to someone as a personal attack.

Last days - you put your affairs in order, spend time with loved ones, decide who gets your TE etc. - not be measuring ESR and in a pissing contest on internet forums 
So I didn't buy it or it didn't register with me, and I thought it might be a pity play to manipulate things, elicit sympathy.

You're 100% right though- it's beyond cruel to taunt any personal situation towards "winning" a technical argument.

[G0HZU]

As I saw it, you reprimanded him but not the other guy. Joe was returning fire while also trying to point out the technical (ESR) measurement clash.
It seemed unfair, biased. Not that he is any saint, but I think just scold both and see if they stop it or not.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants mocking a fellow users potential terminal illness, and continued to do so after being told to stop by the person in question. I don't care what was said to provoke it.
Also, no other post from anyone else was reported.
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse that can be said to someone as a personal attack.

Last days - you put your affairs in order, spend time with loved ones, decide who gets your TE etc. - not be measuring ESR and in a pissing contest on internet forums 
So I didn't buy it or it didn't register with me, and I thought it might be a pity play to manipulate things, elicit sympathy.

You're 100% right though- it's beyond cruel to taunt any personal situation towards "winning" a technical argument.

I really didn't want to join this thread but your post has now made this necessary.

I had no idea I was ill until I was rushed to hospital at 5am a few weeks ago. I was told I may have a split aorta and the prognosis was 'very' poor. My family rushed across the country to be with me and I had two cardiac arrests within about 30 minutes but survived both only to be told they had ruled out the split aorta  The NHS heart team got out of their beds to come in and save my life at 6-7am by treating one problem they found. I was then told I had another problem that might not be treatable. So again my prognosis was poor. I had to wait 5 days in hospital sorting out will and trust etc with family. I had to wait 5 days until a team of surgeons around the country had a meetup to decide what could be done for me.

Fortunately for me there was a way to fix me up and I was sent to a specialist hospital for another op where I had to wait another 5 days for my blood to be right for surgery. I have now got through this and was sent home about a week later.

I hope to make a good recovery but there is a shopping list of complications that could happen in the coming days and weeks. If you knew the chain of events in more detail you would a lot more sympathetic towards me. Fortunately I'm still classed as young and fit by hospital standards so my chances of recovery are very good.

I joined the forum again to try and forget about all this for a while but that hasn't worked out because of the malicious stuff from Joe.

If you still don't believe me I can post up my surgery scars but it doesn't look nice now the dressings are off and all the drains and tubes are removed and stitched up.

[MK14]

Get well soon!

[Picuino]

We mustn't forget the social function of the forum. Some people may find it annoying or unnecessary, believing that the technical aspects are the only important thing. It reminds me of Sheldon Cooper's attitude in The Big Bang Theory series.
I hope you find enjoyable conversations on both technical and human topics, and that you recover soon. All the best.

[floobydust]

As I saw it, you reprimanded him but not the other guy. Joe was returning fire while also trying to point out the technical (ESR) measurement clash.
It seemed unfair, biased. Not that he is any saint, but I think just scold both and see if they stop it or not.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants mocking a fellow users potential terminal illness, and continued to do so after being told to stop by the person in question. I don't care what was said to provoke it.
Also, no other post from anyone else was reported.
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse that can be said to someone as a personal attack.

Last days - you put your affairs in order, spend time with loved ones, decide who gets your TE etc. - not be measuring ESR and in a pissing contest on internet forums 
So I didn't buy it or it didn't register with me, and I thought it might be a pity play to manipulate things, elicit sympathy.

You're 100% right though- it's beyond cruel to taunt any personal situation towards "winning" a technical argument.

I really didn't want to join this thread but your post has now made this necessary.

I had no idea I was ill until I was rushed to hospital at 5am a few weeks ago. I was told I may have a split aorta and the prognosis was 'very' poor. My family rushed across the country to be with me and I had two cardiac arrests within about 30 minutes but survived both only to be told they had ruled out the split aorta  The NHS heart team got out of their beds to come in and save my life at 6-7am by treating one problem they found. I was then told I had another problem that might not be treatable. So again my prognosis was poor. I had to wait 5 days in hospital sorting out will and trust etc with family. I had to wait 5 days until a team of surgeons around the country had a meetup to decide what could be done for me.

Fortunately for me there was a way to fix me up and I was sent to a specialist hospital for another op where I had to wait another 5 days for my blood to be right for surgery. I have now got through this and was sent home about a week later.

I hope to make a good recovery but there is a shopping list of complications that could happen in the coming days and weeks. If you knew the chain of events in more detail you would a lot more sympathetic towards me. Fortunately I'm still classed as young and fit by hospital standards so my chances of recovery are very good.

I joined the forum again to try and forget about all this for a while but that hasn't worked out because of the malicious stuff from Joe.

If you still don't believe me I can post up my surgery scars but it doesn't look nice now the dressings are off and all the drains and tubes are removed and stitched up.

I'm sorry to be insensitive about your health and hope that you have love and support right now. I just curl up into a ball when things get really rough as it has been for yourself.
When a thread becomes fight posts I don't fully read them, just skim through.
This forum is rough for some reason, compared to others. I have no idea why. Geo-politics seems to have made aggression and tough talk the norm lately.
Or it's the place bullies prefer.

[G0HZU]

Thanks. I can't easily lift my arms but managed to do a shaky selfie of my chest etc. I've censored some of it in case anyone (like me) is a bit squeamish.

It took me many days to summon the courage to look at my surgery wounds for the first time. I'd seen large overweight people at the hospital with huge raised wounds (looked awful) but mine looks to be quite flat and neat. There's lots and lots of 'holes' in my abdomen where tubes/drains/wires were fitted including an external pacemaker for a while. There are various stitches in these locations. It really is healing very nicely compared to how it looked a few days ago.

I really thought I was in good shape until this happened but apparently long distance runners and cyclists in their 30s can have the same problem as me. They think I had genetic defect that needed correcting.

You can see I added a piece of paper with G0HZU on it to prove this isn't some random library photo off the web You can see that despite Joe's claims, I'm not really a geriatric  'gramps' either. I was classed as still young and very fit by the consultants. There were people much older/bigger/sicker than me in the hospital and some did OK and some were not so lucky.

The tiny dark spots on my chest are mostly from the numerous injections I had in hospital. Nearly all the bruising is gone except on my arms and hands.

[EEVblog]

FYI, I have unlocked the original ESR thread.

[TUMEMBER]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mho900-scope/msg6105543/#msg6105543

Is this normal behavior, accusing a user who can't defend themselves or respond because they've been banned? But someone who used the accused's posts can insinuate nonsense about "infected software"? Is this normal on this forum? I think it's time to get out of here, that went fast.