Author Topic: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations  (Read 969346 times)

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Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4300 on: December 31, 2024, 03:26:02 pm »
My C245 iron tips performing significantly worse than T12, no idea why is that.. every C245 tip that i tested is noticeable worse than his T12 counterpart.

I record a shot video where i did comparison, .. i'm not sure why is that.. its my first time with C245. Maybe something need to be tweaked in firmware ? or could it be that they are just worse ?

https://youtu.be/bZ1-51asp-k?si=auicMbLoajOEEeFY




 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4301 on: December 31, 2024, 08:16:34 pm »
You're using chinese C245 tips, that's why!
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Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4302 on: December 31, 2024, 09:45:35 pm »
You're using chinese C245 tips, that's why!

Same as T12 :) even cheaper than C245.
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4303 on: December 31, 2024, 11:45:44 pm »
I know but chinese C245 are by far the worst thing I ever tried, it's a total waste of money, don't buy them!
Use T12 or get genuine C245 - period.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 02:59:48 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4304 on: January 01, 2025, 02:30:17 pm »
I know but chinese C245 are by far the worst thing I ever tried, it's a total waste of money, don't buy them!
Use T12 or get genuine C245 - period.

I did some more tests.. and found something interesting, please refer to this video



Both handle profiles has exact same PID settings. I check your code roughly, seems to it has to be something in PWM power limit and how its calculated. Seems like PWM limit operate in ms and should not "create" current sine waves that last seconds at all, just affect its max value, but my test shows differently. On C245 profile we can observer big amplitude  of current fluctuations, that actually makes average power is less than on T12 profile.
 

Offline xebbmw

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4305 on: January 01, 2025, 02:32:42 pm »
Happy New Year to all!

I am looking into buying a T12 soldering station. After reading the most recent posts, it looks like the sellers on Aliexpress have changed models.

According to this post https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/stm32-oled-digital-soldering-station-for-t12-handle/msg5689045/#msg5689045, the model T12-958 from QUICKO Store is being sold with STM32F030 microcontroller which is not compatible with the current firmware. Also this microcontroller has smaller flash size and different package, thus it cannot be replaced on the control board.

Another solution would be to buy KSGER T12 Soldering Iron Station STM32 V3.1S OLED (which according to post https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/stm32-oled-digital-soldering-station-for-t12-handle/msg5569515/#msg5569515 is using MM32 microcontroller; that would need to be replaced by a real STM32F103). The issue with this model is that is not shipped to my location.

Do you see any other options to buy a T12 soldering station that would be compatible with the current firmware?
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4306 on: January 01, 2025, 04:33:23 pm »
Happy New Year to everyone!!  :)

First of all, you should have calibrated the tip, the default values will be wrong, I can't make a perfect calibration for all boards.
The default values between T12 and 245 are almost identical so it shoudn't affect the behavior much.

Oscillation is not due the PWM, but a combination of PID+filtering settings.
Cheap C245 conduct the heat terribly bad, so the default PID settings will be too aggressive, the bond between the tip and the heater is poor, the unloaded heater heats up extremely fast, thus the oscillations.
The heater might be at 400ºC while the tip touching the solder drops to 200.

This is mainly caused by Kp, try reducing it to 15 or even less, but that tip will never perform well.
Also increase the ADC sampling frequency, go to IRON, ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, will help a bit to keep in under control.

But! That tip will never work properly.
And I dare to say it will fail very soon, I recall buying few clones some years back and all failed within the first week or the tips fell off.

I'm curious to see how the original firmware performs in your testing rig, give it a try!  :)

Does anyone have cubeide version 1.12.1? I can't download this version anywhere.
Yup, I just noticed they removed it. ST morons...

Download CubeIDE v1.12.1.
Protected link to avoid getting blocked by bots or crawlers. Copy link, remove "-PROTECTED".

I also added it to Releases, I hope it doesn't get banned.

Do you see any other options to buy a T12 soldering station that would be compatible with the current firmware?
Original STM32:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002984936580.html

MM32 but great Aluminium case:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005008097691983.html
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 05:43:29 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline oleg401169

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4307 on: January 01, 2025, 05:57:52 pm »
Thank you very much! There are really idiots working on the site - the minimum version on the site is 1.15.0 and there is no way to download from the archive, for example. And my hard drive with the file archive broke and I had to look for the right version for quite a long time. Thanks for your help!
 

Offline xebbmw

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4308 on: January 01, 2025, 08:01:52 pm »
MM32 but great Aluminium case:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005008097691983.html

Thanks for the information. I have also found the classic KSGER model https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806674457748.html from the same seller. The question which handle is better regarding the connection with T12 cartridge?

Classic model with black handle has the connector as follows: Classic - black handle.jpg

* Classic - black handle.jpg (21.57 kB - downloaded 772 times.)

Aluminum front plate with blue handle has the connector as follows: Aluminum - blue handle.jpg

* Aluminum - blue handle.jpg (15.62 kB - downloaded 768 times.)

Also another difference is that Classic model uses a 6 pins OLED but the Aluminum front plate model uses a 4 pins OLED.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 08:54:38 pm by xebbmw »
 

Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4309 on: January 01, 2025, 08:32:25 pm »
First of all, you should have calibrated the tip, the default values will be wrong, I can't make a perfect calibration for all boards.
The default values between T12 and 245 are almost identical so it shoudn't affect the behavior much.
That is the point :) it was showing 400C because i used some of my T12 profiles on C245 tip, it was just a test.. to see how it behave, on C245 profile i calibrated the C245 tip correctly that you can see on my first video.

Oscillation is not due the PWM, but a combination of PID+filtering settings.
........
This is mainly caused by Kp, try reducing it to 15 or even less, but that tip will never perform well.
Also increase the ADC sampling frequency, go to IRON, ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, will help a bit to keep in under control.
I was thinking same initially.. but T12 profile and C245 have exact same PID settings, only thing that changes actually is Impedance nad Power setting.
I tried setting Kp as you suggested but that changes nothing, I think that is not PID related, and it something in power limit function. I did some more test,
not sure how limit is calculated but my observations are quite interesting.

ADC Time=200mS, Delay=20ms, PWM Mul=1, Impedance= 2.5Ohm Power=100W: huge fuluctiations current between 3-6A
ADC Time=200mS, Delay=20ms, PWM Mul=1, Impedance= 2.5Ohm Power=200W: flat current 6A (144W)
ADC Time=200mS, Delay=20ms, PWM Mul=1, Impedance=  10Ohm Power=100W: flat current 7A (168W)

ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, Impedance= 2.5Ohm Power=100W: flat current 3A (75W)
ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, Impedance= 2.5Ohm Power=200W: flat current 6A (144W)
ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, Impedance=  10Ohm Power=200W: flat current 6A (144W)
ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, Impedance= 2.5Ohm Power=250W: flat current 6A (144W)
ADC Time=100mS, Delay=10ms, PWM Mul=5, Impedance=  10Ohm Power=250W: flat current 6A (144W)

Btw my C245 has exact 2.5 Ohm heaters.

But! That tip will never work properly.
And I dare to say it will fail very soon, I recall buying few clones some years back and all failed within the first week or the tips fell off.
Let's see :-) one of my friend is using clone tips for 2 years already without any issue, an mine surviverd my multiple "water tests" so i guess it's depends on your luck :)

I'm curious to see how the original firmware performs in your testing rig, give it a try!  :)
I soldered original STM instead MM, so it will too much effort to re-solder it back just for test  :)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 08:43:59 pm by porlock »
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4310 on: January 01, 2025, 09:41:21 pm »
Power limiting works based on the voltage reading and your settings, if the PSU isn't stable it might do weird things.
The stock power supply can handle 100W or so, maybe 150W for very short periods of time, (Few milliseconds).
200mS doing 24V/3ohms=192W will definitely trigger a power limit.
Then voltage will drop, the limiter will see that and give it even more power... Also, thePSU can overshoot when the power is released and reach 30V, and the next cycle will produce lower power.

That's why setting it to 100ms is more stable, specially with PWM Mul set, it makes several small cycles instead only one.

There's nothing special going on with the limiter:
 - Voltage reading: 24V
 - Power limit. 100W
 - Impedance: 3ohms
 - PWM cycle: 100ms
 - Read delay: 10ms
 - Effective PWM: 100-10=90ms
 - Max. possible power: 24² *90/3/100 = 172W
 - Adjust PWM duty limit: 90*100/172 = 52ms
 - 24² *52/3/100 = 100W

And that's it. If the voltage is stable, it'll work just fine.

Just use it to 100mS, it's the best for C245 or good quality T12s.
If your system isn't very noisy yo can go to IRON Filtering and reduce to 50% or even less, the filtering also induces response delay.


You can flash the original FW over the stm32, they're in github (Original FW).

The question which handle is better regarding the connection with T12 cartridge?
I think any will work fine. Just don't get any metal handle, they get too hot to the touch. The cheap blue one works great.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 09:54:37 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4311 on: January 01, 2025, 10:38:21 pm »
Your calculations looks sound, but it still something strange  is happening
Let's consider this

ADC Time=200mS, Delay=20ms, PWM Mul=1, Impedance=  10Ohm Power=100W: flat current 7A (168W)

Please keep in mind that I have 2.5Ohm jbc tip and only set it as 10Ohm, in this case duty limit is 173ms. But I noticed highest current readings for it.

I'm using 300W bench PSU  with 10A current limit.

What is PWM mutilation role in this equation ?  I assuming that all examples are for PWM Mul=1 ?  If we have for example have dute limit 52ms and effective PWM 90ms and set mult to 2, what will happens ?
PWM period will be shorter than required duty in Ms.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 12:31:15 am by porlock »
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4312 on: January 02, 2025, 12:58:00 am »
PWM Mul divides a single cycle into smaller ones.
I.e. For PWM mul=4, instead of a 70% 200ms cycle it makes four 70% 50ms cycles.
Makes the life easier for the PSU when getting near its power capabilities.

Why to limit the PWM duty?
If the heater is meant for 50W and you push 100W for 1 second, 0W for another second, the average power is still 50W, but the heater will burn quickly.
This is the same, we limit the power each cycle, push power, let the heater to rest untilt the next one, that way the internal temperature is more smooth. If you push too much power for too much time it'll burn out, or rise the temps to much and cause oscillation.

I not trying to be rude, but I will never waste my time debugging issues with cheap C245 clones.
They really perform way worse than T12s...

But yeah the default PID might be a bit aggressive - try Kp 15!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 01:13:01 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4313 on: January 02, 2025, 01:43:44 am »
Hey, for first big thanks for help :-)
6A is good enough in my opinion, so i just stay on this.

Now i just trying to understand, i'm just curious how it works :-) i wont push it more than 6A anyway.

I tired Kp15 that didn't make any change, does very aggressive Kp can breach PWM duty limit ?

And i still didn't catch that multiplier thing :-( 
I get the concept but don't understand how it calculated, we have PWM duty limit in milliseconds not duty in %, so if we divide our cycle time by multiple value, actual "ADC Time" will bo shorter, even shorter than single PWM duty limit, let say we have
Dute limit 52ms and ADC Time 100ms and multipler x2, that will means that pwm cycle length as 100ms/2 - 20ms (delay) = 30ms. So we will have on output ..
1 cycle = 30ms power on - 20ms delay
2 cycle = 22ms power on, 8ms power off, 20ms delay
3 cycle = 30 ms power off, 20ms delay
4 cycle = 30 ms power off, 20ms delay
repeat from cycle 1
Or
1 cycle = 10.4ms power on,19.6ms power off  - 20ms delay
2 cycle = 10.4ms power on, 19.6ms power off, 20ms delay
3 cycle = 30 ms power off, 20ms delay
4 cycle = 30 ms power off, 20ms delay
repeat from cycle 1
or
1 cycle = 10.4ms power on, 29.6 power off
2 cycle = 10.4ms power on, 29.6 power off
after that 20ms delay + read.

Last one has most sense but in docs it says that
"PWM multiplier Sets the PWM period, using the formula ADC Time/multiplier." But adc time contains delay.

probably i mixed everything :-P its almost 3 AM
If you get tired and will not want to explain me this i will totally understand :-)




 



« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 09:27:02 am by porlock »
 

Offline sst311212

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4314 on: January 02, 2025, 04:24:13 am »
I think PWM max output will limit to 1/10 because pwr didn't multiply by 10.

Code: [Select]
#ifdef USE_VINvoid updatePowerLimit(void){
  uint32_t volts = getSupplyVoltage_v_x10();                                                // Get last voltage reading x10
  volts = (volts*volts)/10;                                                                 // (Vx10 * Vx10)/10 = (V*V)*10 (x10 for fixed point precision)
  if(volts==0){
    volts=1;                                                                                // set minimum value to avoid division by 0
  }

  uint32_t t = getProfileSettings()->readPeriod + 1;                                        // Complete PWM period
  uint32_t te = t - getProfileSettings()->readDelay - 1;                                    // Effective period after subtracting read delay
  uint32_t z = getProfileSettings()->impedance;                                             // Heater resistance
  uint32_t pwr = getProfileSettings()->power;                                               // Power limit value
  uint32_t maxPower = volts * te / z / t;                                                   // Compute max power with current voltage, impedance (Stored in x10) and effective pwm cycle
  uint32_t max;
  if(pwr >= maxPower){                                                                      // If set power is already higher than the max possible power given the voltage and heater resistance
     max = te;                                                                              // Set max PWM
  }
  else{                                                                                     // Else,
    max = te * pwr / maxPower;                                                              // Compute max PWM output for current power limit
  }
  Iron.Pwm_Max = max / getProfileSettings()->pwmMul;                                  // Adjust for PWM multiplier value
}
#endif

And real PWM output has 10% deviation.
Code: [Select]
  if(Iron.updatePwm){                                                                         // If pending PWM period update, refresh Iron Pwm_period
    Iron.Pwm_Period = ((getProfileSettings()->readPeriod+1)/getProfileSettings()->pwmMul)-1;
  }
#ifdef USE_VIN
  updatePowerLimit();                                                                         // Update power limit values
#endif
  // Update PID
  int32_t target = human2adc(Iron.TargetTemperature);
  Iron.Pwm_Out = calculatePID(target, TIP.last_avg, Iron.Pwm_Max);
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 12:37:06 pm by sst311212 »
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4315 on: January 02, 2025, 10:52:40 am »
It's correct, because the tip impedance is also x10, the final result is the same.
Why the 10% deviation? Please explain.
We compute the effective power, not just 24² / R, we must subtract the dead time.
24²/8=72W, but with 100ms/10ms we're limited to 90% duty, so the max power we can output will be 65W.
And that's the base we use for limiting the power.
Iron.pwmmax is computed by the power limit function.

You can see the current PWM value in the Debug menu (Enable it in System settings).
Set it to 400ºC and you'll see how far the PWM goes.

The timer base is 5us, so for 90ms (100ms - 10ms read delay) it'll be 18.000.
Max power for 8ohms will be 24² *18000/8/20000=65W.
With 80W there's no power limit, so when touching the wet sponge it jumps straight to 18.000.
With 60W it limits to 16.600 (65*16600/18000=60W).
With 40W it limits to 11.000 (65*11000/18000=40W).
So, it's doing fine!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 11:28:03 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline sst311212

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4316 on: January 02, 2025, 01:30:50 pm »
Quote
It's correct, because the tip impedance is also x10, the final result is the same.
Sorry, I forgot impedance already x10.
Quote
Why the 10% deviation? Please explain.
With 100ms / 10ms ADC setting.
Any power setting will effected by "te", so it has 10% deviation isn't it?
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4317 on: January 02, 2025, 03:33:30 pm »
Te means efective period. The largest duty cycle we can generate.
You can't reach 100%, it's impossible, power must be removed to take measures, and it needs some time to settle down or you'll read garbage.
Try setting ADC delay to 0.1ms and see! It might look ok, but it will  fluctuate a lot between low and high load conditions.

Please, just buy quality tips or stay with T12, let's stop this nosense searching for faults in the fw instead admitting cheap C245 are terrible.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 03:40:13 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline sst311212

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4318 on: January 02, 2025, 08:19:04 pm »
I know power should turn off at least 10ms to read stabilize TC signal.

But I am curious about why not set Pwm_Timer to 90ms, Read_Timer to 100ms.
Can't it use this draft code in "HAL_TIM_PeriodElapsedCallback"? Therefore it can use 100% duty in Pwm_Period.
Code: [Select]
if (_htim == Pwm_Timer) {
  Turn_Off_Pwm;
  Turn_Off_Pwm_Timer;
} else if (_htim == Read_Timer) {
  Measure_Tip_Temp;
  Turn_On_Pwm_Timer;
  Turn_On_Pwm;
}

I do have genuine JBC tips and sure, some of china clone tips are garbage.
My experience is don't buy "i2c" brand tips, "Geeboon" is acceptable, and tips has "C245-200H" mark are barely good.

As porlock reports, seems power output is not under control as desired.
When output power can ahead 192W, maybe that's why some clone tips was ruined very soon.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 09:05:10 pm by sst311212 »
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4319 on: January 02, 2025, 08:39:01 pm »
What are the benefits of that? There're many ways to open a nut.
This is basically what happening here:

https://github.com/deividAlfa/stm32_soldering_iron_controller/blob/e438198ef90984ec946b1f2d582ed67091d4bbbe/Core/Src/user_main.c#L268-#L288

The PWM works all the time in the background, the read timer is used to handle everything.
When it's time to measure the PWM output is forced off, and resumed after the ADC is done:
https://github.com/deividAlfa/stm32_soldering_iron_controller/blob/e438198ef90984ec946b1f2d582ed67091d4bbbe/Drivers/generalIO/adc_global.c#L320


Have doubts? Take an oscilloscope and watch the pwm output.
Oscillations are mostly caused by wrong PID tuning.
Again, I can't make PID for everyone, specially not for garbage tips.
Have you seen original C245 lasting two weeks?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 09:01:37 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline porlock

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4320 on: January 02, 2025, 11:13:53 pm »
Have doubts? Take an oscilloscope and watch the pwm output.
Actually i did that :-)
2474665-0
Because of 10ms delay for 200ms we loose 5% of duty,  that is 10W from 200W heater, so if someone want more power should set ADC time longer, but that will increase read delay, and make PID works worse, setting delay shorter will also help to get more power.
200ms/10ms mul=x1 seems to be optimal, for clone C245 tips

2474657-1
This is interesting its has 200ms/20ms and PWM mul set at x2, set point was 300C and current temp 100C, so Kp should push as much it can, but we can see some extra 10ms delay between PWM cycles,  not sure why. (there was no power limit set)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 11:28:32 pm by porlock »
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4321 on: January 02, 2025, 11:56:18 pm »
Yep pwm mul simply makes smaller cycles in the same way as the main one, also replicating the dead time.
I could fix that, put pwm mul was really meant for power limiting, so the heater doesn't take a huge punch at once.
I won't fix that anytime soon, got better things to do...

Longer adc than 200ms will likely make the station oscillate like crazy, there won't be any real world difference between 65 and 70w, specially with cheap tips.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 12:01:37 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline ascarons22

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4322 on: January 06, 2025, 05:55:21 pm »
First of all, happy new year David, I'm getting down to business. If you remember, I have a handskit on which I installed your wonderful firmware, but the bastard only works with 2 T12 tips, the rest continually fail. Those tips that don't work on that station work on the other one that has a ksger 2.1s PCB, with that one it's wonderful, so I don't know if something is wrong with your handskit.
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4323 on: January 06, 2025, 05:59:18 pm »
What do you mean exactly by "doesn't work"?
Happy new year!  :-+
Enable debug menu, show ADC avg value for 300°C.
If something is broken in the amp it'll be very noticeble!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2025, 06:01:17 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline ascarons22

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Re: CFW for KSGER/Quicko STM32 Soldering Stations
« Reply #4324 on: January 08, 2025, 03:22:24 pm »
I have about 20 T12 tips and the hadskit pcb only works with 2 of them, the rest tries to heat up but I constantly get tip not detected, so it's driving me crazy, to say those tips with ksger station work fine, I'll try the mode Depuration
 


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