Magnova oscilloscope

[KungFuJosh]

Man, I love how easy it is to update these.

I also love the new buttons under the measurement bar! The refresh always being visible is great in addition to the pause button and label toggles. I'm also looking forward to the acquire sync option.

Thanks,
Josh

[john74]

New functionality:

• Cursors are now positioned using absolute axis values instead of relative screen positions.
• Increased precision of displayed cursor values.
• Zooming via mouse or touch within the zoom window is now centered on the selected position.

That's a real game changer for me...many thanks for that...now the handling is flawless 

One info though, after the firmware update (from usb stick) the auto power-up was not working on my device
(black screen with no response of any of the front buttons)....
the power-switch on the back-side solved the problem.

Test of the new CAN decoding will follow at the weekend.

And also thanks for all the other updates and fixes

[KungFuJosh]

One info though, after the firmware update (from usb stick) the auto power-up was not working on my device

Firmware update doesn't auto power up; it auto shuts off when complete.

Why did you use USB? No ethernet connection on the Magnova? I love that it takes almost no effort at all with the web update.

[Martin72]

Updating over the Internet is just awesome.
I've come to terms with the fact that the Magnova doesn't reboot on its own after an update; I now see it as a personal touch of the brand.

Unlocked the maximum sampling rate of 1.6 GSa/s for Ch3 and Ch4 whenever Ch1 and Ch2 are inactive.

It's great that the scope finally behaves like all the others on the market.
Now you just need to update the documentation accordingly...
At first, it didn't work for me because I fell into that trap again—this time with the trigger.
It still had CH1 set as the source, and then there’s no 1.6 GSa/s—the channel is off, but since it was selected as the source for the trigger, it’s not really off....
The same applies to active measurements.
I’ll keep falling for this over and over again because I’ve been conditioned by LeCroy.

[KungFuJosh]

...and because you're old.

[Martin72]

That's definitely going to be it, kid...

[KungFuJosh]

That's definitely going to be it, kid...

I'm not that far behind.

[Martin72]

That's why I took your comment in stride...
Seriously, with LeCroy, you can only select a source that’s actually active.
For example, if channel 1 isn’t active, it’s not available as a source.
This applies to measurements, triggers, etc.
It’s a bit annoying if you don’t think about it when using the Magnova, but it’s not something that absolutely needs to be changed—there’s such a thing as too much foolproof design.
Or, as Einstein would say:
You should make things as simple as possible—but not simpler.

[KungFuJosh]

It's not a fault though. It's just different workflow than another brand.

It's useful if you want to trigger off CH1, but don't need to see CH1. Other scopes have the option to hide active channels too; they just go about it slightly differently.

[Martin72]

It's not a fault though. It's just different workflow than another brand.

Of course, that's not a fault.
I know tons of scope manufacturers; some do it one way, others do it differently.

[Sorama]

But if a channel is not activated, you cannot use it as a trigger source, can you?
When it is not visible, it is not active, right?

[KungFuJosh]

IIRC, a channel is activated if it's set as the trigger source, or active measurements are set to it. Visibility only fully deactivates it if nothing else is using the channel.

[john74]

One info though, after the firmware update (from usb stick) the auto power-up was not working on my device

Firmware update doesn't auto power up; it auto shuts off when complete.

Why did you use USB? No ethernet connection on the Magnova? I love that it takes almost no effort at all with the web update.

Well, then the "auto shut off" wasn't working...the button "RUN/STOP" and "POWER ON/OFF" where still lit up but
the scope does not respond of any of the front-panel buttons at all .... so I had to use the main switch at the back-side.

And I could not use ethernet at this moment because host IP has changed
(and I was too lazy to power-up the pc to check the new one) ....
(but maybe this was a user error....did not have much time yesterday)

[KungFuJosh]

Well, then the "auto shut off" wasn't working...the button "RUN/STOP" and "POWER ON/OFF" where still lit up but
the scope does not respond of any of the front-panel buttons at all .... so I had to use the main switch at the back-side.

Oh, that is weird. Something similar happened to me when I was doing something remotely with it, but I forgot what exactly and it hasn't happened since. 🤷

And I could not use ethernet at this moment because host IP has changed
(and I was too lazy to power-up the pc to check the new one) ....
(but maybe this was a user error....did not have much time yesterday)

Host IP? For what? The firmware update service has a URL that you can always repopulate by pressing the default button.

[john74]

Host IP? For what? The firmware update service has a URL that you can always repopulate by pressing the default button.

Yes, you would think so...but for me it is not working....strangely enough the shared SMB drive is working
so I can store screenshots over LAN onto my PC but when I try to update the firmware from "http://batronix .... latest.updt"
I get an error "Failed to download the update file from the address"

and this update path worked some while ago .... I must have changed (unknowingly) some settings.

P.S.
ok, I fixed it, by deleting the update address entry field and pressing the "default" button again.
(I could not see any difference in the link though .... maybe some whitespace problem?)

[john74]

I tried the new cursor functionality and stumbled about something I am not sure if this is new or "as intended"

When cursor tracking is enabled the Y-Cursor should follow the measured amplitude from the input channel and show the voltage on every X-Cursor position...right?
but whith a high enough time scale (here 10us/div) the Y-Cursor is not following in a "continuous" motion but in discrete intervals.
(hard to describe)

screenshot (pos1) at -34ns is measuring 709.9mV
screenshot (pos2) at -73ns is measuring -298mV

and I am not able to meassure any voltage in between (e.g. -50ns is also 709.9mV)

[FloBX]

I tried the new cursor functionality and stumbled about something I am not sure if this is new or "as intended"

When cursor tracking is enabled the Y-Cursor should follow the measured amplitude from the input channel and show the voltage on every X-Cursor position...right?
but whith a high enough time scale (here 10us/div) the Y-Cursor is not following in a "continuous" motion but in discrete intervals.

Hi John,

thank you for pointing this out. The behavior may appear unexpected, but it is currently as intended.

For cursor tracking, the Magnova determines the Y value at the selected X position. However, when more than one acquisition sample falls within a single screen column, it provides a single measured value for that column. This value is based on the minimum and maximum values represented vertically within the column.

Consequently, different X-cursor positions that map to the same screen column may return the same voltage value. This becomes particularly noticeable in the zoom view, where your example uses a horizontal zoom factor of 100. At this level of magnification, a single screen column from the main view covers a much wider area in the zoom window, so the cursor value can remain unchanged across several visible X positions.

The cursors provide voltage values with 16-bit resolution. Only the temporal resolution of the cursor measurement is affected, as this is one of the few Magnova functions that refers directly to screen columns.

The zoom view uses the temporal resolution provided by the main window. Therefore, increasing the temporal resolution in the main window by selecting a smaller time scale setting also improves the cursor resolution in the zoom view. The attached screenshots demonstrate this effect.


This approach ensures that the cursor reading remains consistent with the data representation used to display the waveform. We hope this clarifies the observed behavior.

Best regards
Florian
Batronix

[john74]

@FloBx,
thanks for the clarification.

I know the new firmware version is not even one week old but to keep you guys busy  ...
would it be possible to add a "TIME" variable into the expressions for the math channels?

e.g. "M1 = CH4 && (TIME > -400ns) && (TIME < 600ns)"

would give you the attached screenshot

The use case is a non periodic signal, where I am only interrested in a short time window after the trigger event.
So to "cut out" the interesting part I would need a time correlation and not voltage correlation.

I know I can do this right now with the integral function (as the screenshot proves)
but this method don't scales with the horizontal time setting.

[john74]

found a bug in the new cursor system:

when you create a reference signal and set the cursor source to that reference
the cursor y-traces are not following the reference signal.

I am not sure what happened (see screenshot) but I think the Y-position is calculated
from the original analog channel and not the reference signal.

when you move the reference in X-direction the vertical cursor are not following,
and when you activate "tracking" the cursors are all over the place...very odd 

a similar bug happens, when you enable tracking on a math channel as source
(this only works as long you don't move the math channel in Y-direction or change the voltage scaling)

[KungFuJosh]

There's a new version of the TestController driver for the Magnova here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/msg6317582/#msg6317582

Thanks,
Josh

[Performa01]

I tried the new cursor functionality and stumbled about something I am not sure if this is new or "as intended"

When cursor tracking is enabled the Y-Cursor should follow the measured amplitude from the input channel and show the voltage on every X-Cursor position...right?
but whith a high enough time scale (here 10us/div) the Y-Cursor is not following in a "continuous" motion but in discrete intervals.

Hi John,

thank you for pointing this out. The behavior may appear unexpected, but it is currently as intended.

I hope you can forgive me to put a statement at this, even though I am not a Magnova owner and also look at cursors as a near obsolete tool from the past, that I don’t use regularly nowadays.

It should be obvious, that it might be a bit too gentle to call the current behavior of the Magnova cursors just “unexpected”. Cursors are graphical tools for screen measurements, and on the zoom screen of the Magnova this just doesn’t work.

At 10 µs/div and 1.6 GSa/s, there should be 192 kSa per screen width in the main window and still 1.92 kSa in the 100 ns/div zoom window. There is no technical reason for the cursors to not exactly follow the trace on the (zoomed) screen.

I get it, that the Magnova quite obviously uses decimated data for the cursors. It should at the very least use the actual screen data, if the original record data cannot be used for some reason.

Attached is an example how I would expect cursors to behave in order to be actually useful.

[FloBX]

found a bug in the new cursor system:

when you create a reference signal and set the cursor source to that reference
the cursor y-traces are not following the reference signal.
[...]
a similar bug happens, when you enable tracking on a math channel as source
(this only works as long you don't move the math channel in Y-direction or change the voltage scaling)

Hi John,
thanks for reporting this. We are already looking into it and will provide an appropriate solution as soon as possible.

I know the new firmware version is not even one week old but to keep you guys busy  ...
would it be possible to add a "TIME" variable into the expressions for the math channels?

I have noted this for internal discussion. We might get back to you on this one.

I hope you can forgive me to put a statement at this, even though I am not a Magnova owner and also look at cursors as a near obsolete tool from the past, that I don’t use regularly nowadays.

It should be obvious, that it might be a bit too gentle to call the current behavior of the Magnova cursors just “unexpected”. Cursors are graphical tools for screen measurements, and on the zoom screen of the Magnova this just doesn’t work.

At 10 µs/div and 1.6 GSa/s, there should be 192 kSa per screen width in the main window and still 1.92 kSa in the 100 ns/div zoom window. There is no technical reason for the cursors to not exactly follow the trace on the (zoomed) screen.

I get it, that the Magnova quite obviously uses decimated data for the cursors. It should at the very least use the actual screen data, if the original record data cannot be used for some reason.

Attached is an example how I would expect cursors to behave in order to be actually useful.

Hi Performa,

this is the first time the limitation of cursor tracking precision in the zoom view has been brought up (the general cursor precision, without tracking, is not limited in any way). Those who have followed this thread will have noticed that we place great importance on understanding how our design decisions perform in practice and are prepared to revisit them when customer feedback reveals a better approach.

The original design aimed to keep the cursor representations identical between the main window and the zoom window. Your example illustrates a different design approach by making the cursor functionality exclusive to the zoom view, and this is certainly one of the options we are considering. We very much appreciate this kind of feedback.


Best regards
Florian
Batronix

[Performa01]

The original design aimed to keep the cursor representations identical between the main window and the zoom window. Your example illustrates a different design approach by making the cursor functionality exclusive to the zoom view, and this is certainly one of the options we are considering. We very much appreciate this kind of feedback.

If you want to keep Cursors consistent on both the main and zoom view, you would need to use the zoom window as reference and then derive the main window cursors from it.

Yes, my example shows cursors exclusively in the zoom view. That's because we use zoom to inspect signal details within a longer record. But then the main window is just an overview and navigation aid. One might still apply automatic measurements to the main window, but not many would want to use fiddly cursor measurements there. And the fact, that we're using Zoom hints on quite some fiddling with cursors in the main window. While it's nice to have that little rectangle indicating the zoomed portion of the record in the main window, I cannot see any advantage in having a cramped copy of the zoom cursors there - we just don't need that information. The zoom rectangle together with the cursor position in the zoom window tells us enough about the position of the cursor measurement in relation to the complete record.

[john74]

Yes, my example shows cursors exclusively in the zoom view. That's because we use zoom to inspect signal details within a longer record. But then the main window is just an overview and navigation aid. One might still apply automatic measurements to the main window, but not many would want to use fiddly cursor measurements there. And the fact, that we're using Zoom hints on quite some fiddling with cursors in the main window. While it's nice to have that little rectangle indicating the zoomed portion of the record in the main window, I cannot see any advantage in having a cramped copy of the zoom cursors there - we just don't need that information. The zoom rectangle together with the cursor position in the zoom window tells us enough about the position of the cursor measurement in relation to the complete record.

I would counter argue against that and would miss the cursors in the main window. Because I often need to measure the time delay between two events
(maybe also between two different signals)

And here I need a very precise way to set both X-Cursors (with the help of the zoom window) to the start and the end of the events
and these two events won't fit together in the zoom window at the same time....so either Cursor-A or Cursor-B should be visible on the main window as reference all the time.

But you are right, I would rather have an pixel error offset on the main window as in the zoom window.

[KungFuJosh]

I think the correct choice would be to make it optional:

• Independent Cursors available in both the Main and Zoom windows.
• Can be enabled or disabled independently.
• Optional whether or not they're linked.

Thanks,
Josh