Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 59790 times)

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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #325 on: December 22, 2018, 07:05:33 am »
Still 1 µs jitter would be pretty high, though in most cases not a problem, as the relevant frequencies are low  (e.g. <= 120 Hz).
Yes, it seems so.

But at the same time I lost AZ
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 07:07:41 am by MegaVolt »
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #326 on: December 22, 2018, 08:13:42 am »
There should also be a way to get a constant sampling rate with AZ mode active.  It may not be that fast (e.g. sampling rate near 24/29 Hz) but ideally should allow for a reasonable constant rate.
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #327 on: December 22, 2018, 06:58:30 pm »
There should also be a way to get a constant sampling rate with AZ mode active.  It may not be that fast (e.g. sampling rate near 24/29 Hz) but ideally should allow for a reasonable constant rate.
Yes it is. But it will be necessary to lower the sampling rate 3 times. And the time of data collection will increase 3 times. :(
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #328 on: December 25, 2018, 04:12:56 am »
Tell me who knows: how to correctly determine that the buffer filling in the device is over? For example, set Count = 1000 with 10 NPLC. It's half an hour. What should I ask the device to find out if it has finished?

I tried to find out
defbuffer1.endindex
defbuffer1.n

But always the data collection stopped.

What should I ask the device in order not to interfere with its data collection?

Or should I calculate the time myself and maintain the timeout?
 

Offline Jens01

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #329 on: January 08, 2019, 05:22:29 am »
There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.
I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either.  I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode.  The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update.  I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!

upgrading to V1.0.03 fixed the issue. :-+

Another question regarding the K2700 emulation-mode: the K2700 has a a current range of 0 ... 20 mA, the DAQ6510 only has 0 ... 10 mA or 0 ... 100mA ranges. In emulation-mode a 0 ... 20mA range is available, but how is this implemented? Nothing more than  0 ... 100mA range capped at 20mA?
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #330 on: January 08, 2019, 11:56:36 am »
HighVoltage
 Thanks for your experiment. Can you make this measurement with 1NPLC for both DMM's also? Can you show statistical data for all experiments? Thanks again.

Here you go.
Both instruments are parallel on a Fluke 731B
Both instruments are on 1 NPLC and no Filter

I is nice to see how well both instruments agree on the 10V value of my source.

Nice to see performance of both instruments at a 731B reference.
This gives me an idea of how to classify my dmm6500 and my 10V selfmade reference:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/build-a-10v-buffer-inside-the-teko371-ltz1000-box/msg1611664/#msg1611664

First 3 pic with 1 NPLC and no Filter, but i measure my references with
5 NPLC and FILTER REPEAT COUNT 10
last 3 pics. Temp 20.5°C

Edit: Attach log (open document format ods, should be excel compatible)

« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 01:14:43 pm by hwj-d »
 
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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #331 on: January 09, 2019, 03:51:55 am »
hwj-d

 Thanks for experiments. Can you make it with 10 PLC?
 (I think we will get the same 10.00000)  :scared:
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #332 on: January 09, 2019, 12:53:05 pm »
Hello MikeP,

I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 08:31:19 pm by hwj-d »
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #333 on: January 10, 2019, 03:43:45 pm »
One interesting Application Note:
Data Logging of Power Profiles from Wireless IoT and Other Low-Power Devices Using the DMM6500
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf

Some scripting tips inside  :-+


 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #334 on: January 10, 2019, 07:13:26 pm »
Some scripting tips inside  :-+
Thank. Examples are good.
I found this document:
It is for the oscilloscope but you can understand the principles of operation.

And a document from competitors. With some details, attainable speeds and other interesting information.
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #335 on: January 11, 2019, 03:44:57 am »
I didn't see any DMM6500 Reference Manual in the moment, as it is there for the DMM7510.
The only command-, syntax-reference to the DMM6500 TSP (-TekVISA) is encapsulated as html-xml in Win-TextScriptBuilder.  :-//
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
 

Offline BitWrangler1001

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #336 on: January 11, 2019, 04:35:05 am »
I didn't see any DMM6500 Reference Manual in the moment, as it is there for the DMM7510.
The only command-, syntax-reference to the DMM6500 TSP (-TekVISA) is encapsulated as html-xml in Win-TextScriptBuilder.  :-//
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?

https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0
 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #337 on: January 11, 2019, 04:41:23 am »
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
That would be very convenient. I only use TSB to read help :)))

If it's not difficult for you to make me 7510 :) please.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #339 on: January 11, 2019, 05:32:08 am »
Hello MikeP,

I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself.  ;)
This is good news. I was interested in the REAL and PRACTICAL difference in PLC - settings. Thanks.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #340 on: January 11, 2019, 09:27:41 am »
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
That would be very convenient. I only use TSB to read help :)))

If it's not difficult for you to make me 7510 :) please.

For the DMM6500 it is:

DMM6500 command reference
-----------------------------
Remote commands
../topic/com.keithley.keithleyide.docDMM6500/DMM6500_introduction_to_TSP_operation.htm
file:///X:xx/yy/zz/doc/DMM6500_introduction_to_TSP_operation.htm

TSP command reference
../topic/com.keithley.keithleyide.docDMM6500/DMM6500_TSP_command_reference.htm
file:///X:xx/yy/zz/doc/DMM6500_TSP_command_reference.htm

Additional DMM6500 information
../topic/com.keithley.keithleyide.docDMM6500/46200.htm
file:///X:xx/yy/zz/doc/46200.htm
-----------------------------
where you extract the doc.zip

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mipcgq0y89s1fp0/doc.zip?dl=0

But, if i saw the Reference Manual to late, it is pretty the same as in the PDF. The themes are hyperlinked in the manual.

So, i believe, tell me, no need to explicide extract that 7510 file. ;-)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 09:29:15 am by hwj-d »
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #341 on: January 12, 2019, 05:24:19 am »
So, i believe, tell me, no need to explicide extract that 7510 file. ;-)
;)
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #342 on: January 12, 2019, 06:37:30 pm »
Update:

As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:
  • the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
    (DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)
  • the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #344 on: January 14, 2019, 11:09:26 am »
Is there a manual for APP development for the DMM6500? I have the code of the Intro application, one that can load images to the LCD. I can't locate a manual that describes te image format and how to load it.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #345 on: January 14, 2019, 11:45:49 am »
Answering my own question:
Create a PNG image
Convert to BASE64
Then add at the end of the application script between:

loadimage <name> <script>
BASE64 data
endimage
 
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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #346 on: January 14, 2019, 12:04:21 pm »
That was easy :)

 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #347 on: January 22, 2019, 08:49:59 am »
I try to get uniform readings in Digitize_V mode.

The best I could get looks like this. But there are a number of strange regular artifacts. The main number of readings has a deviation of no more than 1 ns. But a number of calculations following about 100 counts have a larger deviation of up to 40 ns. Single emissions up to 120 ns.

On the graphs on the X axis time. On the Y axis, the deviation of the duration of 1 measurement from the ideal. In this case, from 100 μs.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #348 on: January 22, 2019, 11:27:13 am »
I try to get uniform readings in Digitize_V mode.

The best I could get looks like this. But there are a number of strange regular artifacts. The main number of readings has a deviation of no more than 1 ns. But a number of calculations following about 100 counts have a larger deviation of up to 40 ns. Single emissions up to 120 ns.

On the graphs on the X axis time. On the Y axis, the deviation of the duration of 1 measurement from the ideal. In this case, from 100 μs.

Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?

Update:

As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:
  • the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
    (DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)
  • the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble?  Try downloading directly from Tek.com... 
Also, the TSB command help files are compiled from the same source the Reference Manuals are compiled from.  You can access the TSB version of the help directly without going through TSB with (in  Windows 10 at least): Windows Key > Keithley Instruments folder > TSB for 65XX Documentation.  Or, just keep the Reference Manual pdf open and jump back to page 17, where the TSP command list starts.

That was easy :)


Awesome! Doubly impressive since we haven't publicly documented that!  We are working on documentation for the apps to release sometime later this year, the commands are still very fluid as we make some apps ourselves and figure out how we'd like the commands to work.  If you have some ideas for what you'd like to do with the interface could you send them along to me?  We're trying to put together a "wish list" of apps, I could also send you some of the documentation we have right now.

Hello MikeP,

I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself.  ;)
Unless you are expecting recurring noise at a frequency lower than 1 PLC (i.e. you expect some 30 Hz noise, then use 2 PLC), the 6500 will return the best results at 1 PLC.  I would recommend averaging rather than higher PLC settings to reduce noise.

Also thank you for all the data, I'm still looking into that shifting level issue you saw with a couple other engineers.

There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.
I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either.  I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode.  The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update.  I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!

upgrading to V1.0.03 fixed the issue. :-+

Another question regarding the K2700 emulation-mode: the K2700 has a a current range of 0 ... 20 mA, the DAQ6510 only has 0 ... 10 mA or 0 ... 100mA ranges. In emulation-mode a 0 ... 20mA range is available, but how is this implemented? Nothing more than  0 ... 100mA range capped at 20mA?
Ah yeah, that's a weird quirk.  2700 Emulation mode ignores the 20mA range and will only use the 100mA range.  You can see this if you're watching the front panel when you set the range with CONF:CURR.  I'll mention that to manuals, it should probably be explicitly called out in the Emulation Manual.

Tell me who knows: how to correctly determine that the buffer filling in the device is over? For example, set Count = 1000 with 10 NPLC. It's half an hour. What should I ask the device to find out if it has finished?

I tried to find out
defbuffer1.endindex
defbuffer1.n

But always the data collection stopped.

What should I ask the device in order not to interfere with its data collection?

Or should I calculate the time myself and maintain the timeout?
It sounds like you're in continuous mode and then send the box a query over the remote interface, is that right?  Continuous mode isn't available when you're using the remote interface, so the box will always leave it and go to Manual Trigger mode if you send it a command (which puts the box into remote mode).  The commands you listed are a good way to find how full the buffer is (in combination with defbuffer1.capacity) but unless you start the measurement from a remote interface, going into remote mode will interrupt your measurement.

Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.
I checked this model. Unfortunately, it has the same 1 μs jitter.
With the settings I gave?  I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading.  I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.
 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #349 on: January 22, 2019, 07:18:42 pm »
Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?
I was working with 7510. It was necessary to indicate this.

It seems to me that they are very similar? Or is it not?
Quote
It sounds like you're in continuous mode and then send the box a query over the remote interface, is that right?  Continuous mode isn't available when you're using the remote interface, so the box will always leave it and go to Manual Trigger mode if you send it a command (which puts the box into remote mode).  The commands you listed are a good way to find how full the buffer is (in combination with defbuffer1.capacity) but unless you start the measurement from a remote interface, going into remote mode will interrupt your measurement.
Yes that's right. I did not know about this feature. And I ran the measurements manually on the instrument and tried to read them remotely. It turned out that this can not be done. It is necessary to run and read data remotely.

Now I can read the data during the measurements except NPLC value <0.15 If the NPLC <0.15 device does not respond to requests. As I understand it before the completion of the measurements.

Quote
With the settings I gave?  I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading.  I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.
It is very interesting. It looks like I do not notice some important nuance. I will try to show the results that I get.
 


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