Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 1447153 times)

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Offline PeDre

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4450 on: May 16, 2019, 01:46:43 pm »
Saving the data as CSV is now available. I haven't tested much if there are any errors. But with the DS1000Z and DS2000 it works. The recordings are available for the DS1000Z and DS2000A. With the DS2000A, the 'Play back' mode must be manually activated beforehand.
There is also something wrong with the inverted channels and the memory. I haven't understood that yet.

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/messinstrumente/

As a hint who is using the DS1000Z firmware 04.03 should update. The version does not respond to *IDN? command, the program does not work with it.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 11:54:54 am by PeDre »
 

Offline stj

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4451 on: May 16, 2019, 08:23:48 pm »
you should do mac & linux builds or share the source.
purebasic is pretty universal.  :-+
 

Offline bulba99

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4452 on: May 17, 2019, 05:22:22 pm »
A new firmware is available.

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Zver_04.04.04.02.zip

Quote
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.04.02  2019/02/26
     - Add new encoder drivers
 

Offline MarkF

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4453 on: May 17, 2019, 05:54:31 pm »
A new firmware is available.

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Zver_04.04.04.02.zip

Quote
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.04.02  2019/02/26
     - Add new encoder drivers

Old news.
 

Offline burkm

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4454 on: June 25, 2019, 01:54:39 pm »
There is already a firmware version "DS1000Zver_04.04.04.03.zip" available from Rigol.
Downloaded it yesterday and upgraded my instrument already without a problem. Unfortunately I forgot, where I got that update from, but I think it had that infamous entry form in front: I entered some pretty name(s), "any" serial no  :) and the instrument model and => voila... got the latest update immediately in return: Link https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0025:d-0005/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm

By the way, all new DS1000Z oscilloscopes come with all options enabled now for "free". No more "illegal" hacking then...
 

Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4455 on: June 25, 2019, 02:55:02 pm »
No need to fill in any forms, here you can download the firmware directly from the Chinese Rigol website:

https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3
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Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline MarkF

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4456 on: June 25, 2019, 04:09:45 pm »
No need to fill in any forms, here you can download the firmware directly from the Chinese Rigol website:

https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3

Or the Rigol North America site
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4457 on: June 28, 2019, 02:43:41 am »
I have updated the first post in this thread to reflect the latest firmware version, and the fact that new scopes come with all options unlocked.

I have assumed that the 'hack' is still required to enable 100MHz bandwidth on scopes such as the DS1054Z.
 
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Offline t_i_t_o

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4458 on: August 01, 2019, 07:38:31 pm »
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4459 on: August 01, 2019, 10:44:35 pm »
No, DS1054Z does not have 300MHz bandwidth.

That very small rise time is an artifact created by the DSP post-processing, DSP required for drawing on the screen a continuous line starting from only a few samples, when sinx/x is on and vector mode on.

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4460 on: August 01, 2019, 11:02:06 pm »
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.
 

Offline MarkF

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4461 on: August 01, 2019, 11:37:47 pm »
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)

Some where here (I think in the hugh Rigol thread), the DS1054Z, hacked to 100 MHz, has a measured -3 db bandwidth of 160 MHz.

Note- How about a screen snapshot from the scope instead of a hugh picture from a camera....
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 11:41:27 pm by MarkF »
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4462 on: August 02, 2019, 03:35:42 am »
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the display also varies with the spectrum of the incoming signal.  Didn't properly tested yet if the spectrum outside 100 MHz is the real cause, but I noticed that a 30 MHz square wave with a 10ns rise/fall time is displayed reasonably well, while the same 30 MHz and same voltage level from a TTL output (probably a 2ns fall/rise time, not specified in the generator's specs) is very distorted in various ways depending on the on/off status of the sinx/x mode and vector/dots mode.  The slow edge signal was taken from the signal output of a DG4102 DDS generator, while the fast edge signal was taken from the sync output of the same generator which sync output is described as TTL compatible.

I didn't double checked with an analog oscilloscope if the two signals were really the same square wave with the only difference in edges' speed, but I'm almost sure they were the same, because the artifacts I've seen were nothing like normal ringings or reflections.  They were weird and unnatural looking shapes that I've never seen before, clearly visible only when the fall/rise edges were << 10ns (for a 30 MHz square wave, 50%, TTL level, and the oscilloscope sampling rate at 250MSa/s).

Here's an example with sinx/x off, dots mode, run mode, for the same 30 MHz square signal except the second one has sharper edges:





Please note that we see so many dots because the oscilloscope is in run mode and many screens are overlapped, while the generator and the oscilloscope does not have the internal clocks synchronized.  The actual number of samples for a single trace is very small:





Same 30 MHz slow vs fast edges, this time with sin(x)/x on:





Maybe I'll redo the test in a more controlled way and take some snapshots.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 03:55:03 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4463 on: August 02, 2019, 09:57:09 am »
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the problem is due to not zooming to maximum zoom. The DS1054Z does all calculations using "on-screen" pixels so for most accuracy in things like rise times you need to zoom in on the area of interest.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4464 on: August 03, 2019, 10:59:34 am »
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the problem is due to not zooming to maximum zoom. The DS1054Z does all calculations using "on-screen" pixels so for most accuracy in things like rise times you need to zoom in on the area of interest.

That has an effect on accuracy but reports of bandwidth vary over more than a 2:1 range.  Some are more than 3:1.  The DSOs I have used have no problem making accurate edge measurements over a 10:1 range in displayed signal amplitudes.  The shape of the waveform should not vary with amplitude.

Like we have discussed in the past, I suspect one of the amplifier stages suffers from slew rate limiting causing saturation or cutoff which also explains the odd 10 nanosecond recovery time under certain conditions.
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4465 on: August 04, 2019, 09:27:07 am »
Out of curiosity I rechecked the bandwidth of my hacked DS1054Z  over an extended range.  The -3db point is between 130-140 Mhz.  At 200 Mhz I measured -4.8 dB.  250Mhz  was -7.1 dB and 300 Mhz was -9.3 dB.    The signal source was accurate at -7.7 dB at 10M and within +- 0.1 dB over the frequency range measured.  Directly connected to the scope with a through 50 ohm termination.   I also checked the triggering which worked fine to 500 Mhz.  The display frequency measurement was by then jumping around all over the place around 500 Mhz.  Above 100 Mhz don't expect reliable measurements on your own scope unless you can calibrate it yourself and it may well vary with the vertical sensitivity settings.  However you can certainly view signals up to 300 Mhz  with some confidence that they are real.  The triggering, as has been mentioned before,  far exceeds the usable viewing bandwidth of the scope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4466 on: August 04, 2019, 10:16:03 am »
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the problem is due to not zooming to maximum zoom. The DS1054Z does all calculations using "on-screen" pixels so for most accuracy in things like rise times you need to zoom in on the area of interest.

That has an effect on accuracy but reports of bandwidth vary over more than a 2:1 range.  Some are more than 3:1.  The DSOs I have used have no problem making accurate edge measurements over a 10:1 range in displayed signal amplitudes.  The shape of the waveform should not vary with amplitude.

Like we have discussed in the past, I suspect one of the amplifier stages suffers from slew rate limiting causing saturation or cutoff which also explains the odd 10 nanosecond recovery time under certain conditions.

-3dB point is between 130 and 140 MHz. Period. Measured with frequency sweep from a siggen, 50 OHm pass trough terminator scope side .
The only way.

Outrageous claims are coming from people that either don't understand -3dB part , or people who keep calculating bandwidth from impulse response, ignoring the fact that DS1000Z input freq response has an odd shape that favors edge sharpness and not nice frequency response..

Like JohnPen very nicely wrote (my measurements are very similar to his), you can use to see if your 250MHz clock works without problem.
That doesn't make it 250MHz scope. -3dB point does...
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4467 on: August 04, 2019, 11:52:27 am »
Actually, that doesn't reflect the complete situation: The DS1000Z has two physical, relay-switched sensitivity ranges in the input voltage divider. Further sensitivity adjustments are arranged via the internal digital gain modules in the HMCAD1511 ADC.

As long as the high sensitivity range is selected (this means a less than 330mV/div true input sensitivity), the mentioned figures are correct. But if you change the sensitivity to 335mV/div or above and thus select the low gain input configuration, the 3dB bandwidth increases to somewhere around 220MHz. Of course, this test requires a generator that's capable of some decent output amplitude since the use of a terminator at the scope input is mandatory at these frequencies.

If this behavior is something that's useful in any way may be discussed controversely, I prefer a scope with an input configuration that wouldn't (substantially) change bandwidth when selecting a different sensitivity, especially if it isn't documented anywhere. Anyway, I guess it is what it is and the user's the one who's got to make best use of it. If it helps in some situations -- good, if it doesn't never mind ;) .

I hope this helps to enlighten the situation a little.

Cheers,
Thomas
 
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Online xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4468 on: August 04, 2019, 12:38:02 pm »
-3dB point is between 130 and 140 MHz. Period. Measured with frequency sweep from a siggen, 50 OHm pass trough terminator scope side .
The only way.

Here's my data. I measured 130 MHz for the -3 dB point.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/rogol-1054z-actual-bandwidth/msg1380072/#msg1380072
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4469 on: August 05, 2019, 01:52:31 am »
Actually, that doesn't reflect the complete situation: The DS1000Z has two physical, relay-switched sensitivity ranges in the input voltage divider. Further sensitivity adjustments are arranged via the internal digital gain modules in the HMCAD1511 ADC.

As long as the high sensitivity range is selected (this means a less than 330mV/div true input sensitivity), the mentioned figures are correct. But if you change the sensitivity to 335mV/div or above and thus select the low gain input configuration, the 3dB bandwidth increases to somewhere around 220MHz. Of course, this test requires a generator that's capable of some decent output amplitude since the use of a terminator at the scope input is mandatory at these frequencies.

Besides the inconsistent reports, three things make me think that the bandwidth varies with amplitude:

1. The DS1054Z only has *one* switchable input attenuator which so the input buffer has to operate over a range 10 times larger than many oscilloscopes.  This means the input slew rate is 10 times higher for a given frequency.

2. Per Dave's reverse engineering, the differential amplifier uses 3904s which are only marginally fast enough for a 100 MHz front end even at a lower signal level.  The equalization networks at the emitters show that the designers were pushing the transistors to their limits.

3. The screenshot below shows a non-linearity in the transient response which should not exist.  If this is a 100 MHz 3.5 nanosecond oscilloscope, then at most there should be signs of recovery rather than that flat slope for more than 5 nanoseconds.  To me that looks like a transistor was driven into saturation or cutoff.  The preshoot at 1 GS/s is also questionable.

What that all adds up to is that I suspect large signals applied to the input buffer result in slew rate limiting and besides the transient response issue, this results in a variation of bandwidth with signal level.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4470 on: August 05, 2019, 01:43:05 pm »
David -
your assumption regarding the input amplifier getting close to saturation at higher input levels (or encountering problems because of its limited slew rate) sounds reasonable, but it doesn't actually appear to be the case. I just re-checked the bandwidth in the high sensitivity range of my DS1000Z at a setting of 5mV/div with an input signal level of round about 40mVpp.

If your assumption would be correct, I'ld expect a noticably higher bandwidth than with the scope set at 330mV/div, just before the relay switches in the additional analog divider, and fed with an input signal of 1.5Vpp (that's the maximum my SDG6000X will provide with the additional 50 ohms terminator at up to 350MHz). Actually, the bandwidth even appears to be a little higher at the higher input level.

The big difference is when the input sensitivity is changed to 335mV, enabling the divider. Risking to be boring, may I ask to please have a look at the attached screenshots, their file names should pretty well explain what you're seeing there (LR = Low Range, HR = High Range of the relay-operated input divider). I checked the output level of the SDG6000X to be constant within 0.1dB over the frequency range (HP437B + HP8482A).

Actually, I've got the impression that Rigol over-compensated the parasitic capacitances of the additional voltage divider in the high input range, thus emphasizing the high frequencies and causing the HF rolloff to appear slower than it actually is. It will be quite difficult to check this in an open DS1000Z frontend since any probing in this area will affect the performance of the circuitry. It's probably enough to know about this issue and keep it in mind when using the scope. Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Cheers,
Thomas
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 01:45:07 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4471 on: August 05, 2019, 03:23:03 pm »
Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Don't you think the DS1054Z and the DS1104Z share the same hardware and that, by using a software key the artificially limited bandwidth can be upgraded?
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4472 on: August 05, 2019, 04:26:13 pm »
Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Don't you think the DS1054Z and the DS1104Z share the same hardware and that, by using a software key the artificially limited bandwidth can be upgraded?

I understood TurboTom's comment as just stating that us DS1054Z owners are a greedy bunch.  ;)
Buy 50 MHz, cheat your way into 100 MHz, then hope to get 150 MHz and beyond... 8)
 

Offline tv84

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4473 on: August 05, 2019, 04:33:29 pm »
I understood TurboTom's comment as just stating that us DS1054Z owners are a greedy bunch.  ;)
Buy 50 MHz, cheat your way into 100 MHz, then hope to get 150 MHz and beyond... 8)

Not "hope", "expect".   ;)
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4474 on: August 05, 2019, 05:16:43 pm »
Indeed. That is my biggest expectation for the MSO5000 is something proportionately for nothing :)

I wish they’d hurry up and fix the bugs
 


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