Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[Martin72]

A little explanation why I´am disappointed in the math things.
Example eres…
You got a noisy signal and want to filter this for clearer vision.
How annoying is it, when you must have the noisy source and the filtered signal together on the screen...makes no sense.
The lecroy waverunner 3024 can do it, it can even for example filtering clock and data source of say a noisy SPI signal - And you can decode on these maths functions…
And display it only…
Of course, because it´s lecroy and not a B-brand you would say.
But the WS3000 series is equal to the SDS3000 series from siglent…
I expect they fix the thing.

[maginnovision]

That is very odd. I suspect they can fix that without too much trouble. It is something that would bother me quite a bit.

[0xdeadbeef]

But the WS3000 series is equal to the SDS3000 series from siglent…

While true, the WS3000(Z)/SDS3000(X) is not a rebrand but the result of a cooperation (which is also why the SDS3000(X) is not sold in Western countries), LeCroy most certainly influenced the specs and HW design and the SW is completely done by LeCroy. So it's no surprise that the WS3000(Z)/SDS3000(X) has some features that a normal Siglent scope will (most likely) never have (like WaveScan and LabNotebook). And as discussed several times before, that's also the reason why the SDS5000X is not superior to the SDS3000X in every aspect (also HW/spec wise like bandwidth limitation for low voltage scales).

About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.

[Wuerstchenhund]

You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.

I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance

It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).

You are also wrong that you can't get memory information on a Keysight scope. It is there but not in plain sight.

Where? I'm really curious as I can't remember  ever seeing any amount of memory mentioned anywhere. Granted, I haven't used an InfiniVision scope for a while (and I don't use entry level scopes very often anyways) but all I can remember seeing is the sample rate. Even when you use Segmented mode it only shows the number of segments but not how large they are.

Having said that, its different for Infiniium scopes with MegaZoom (where you can see and manually set sample memory sizes) but that's not the type of scope we're talking here.

Probably because the memory depth typically is 1/4th (or even less) of what it says on the badge.

Indeed. Which is why it's probably better the user doesn't see how much memory of the already small memory is actually left

But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.

To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected.

Which scope works differently then?

Didn't you have one of the early-generation Infiniiums (54800 Series)? Because they do the same

[Wuerstchenhund]

Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
They should handle it like lecroy does - hopefully, they can manage this.

Indeed, that's disappointing, but it might be just another bug and not even intentional.

In any case, that should be easy to fix.

On the SDS1104X-E, eres was part of the acquision mode, no need to use extra mathchannel for this.

I still have doubts that the "Eres" (note the spelling!) implementation of earlier Siglent scopes was actually true ERES, it may well have been just the normal HiRes acquisition mode.

The update-list is getting longer..

Frankly, that's to be expected (things like this, after all, are part of the trade-offs for the lower price), but the good thing is that none of the bugs seem to be real show-stoppers, and if reported back to Siglent fur sure will be fixed quickly.

[rf-loop]

Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….

Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

But is it also so that SDS2kXPlus math source channel trace display need be on.
If so, it can call as mistake in FW. Channel on/off (active/inactive) and channel trace display on/off  are two different things, least in some Siglent scopes with fresh FW.

[nctnico]

To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected.

Which scope works differently then?

All of them! Tektronix, Yokogawa (IIRC), GW Instek, Keysight, R&S, etc.

Didn't you have one of the early-generation Infiniiums (54800 Series)? Because they do the same

No. I used to own an Agilent 7104A.

[TK]

Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….

Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

[Martin72]

Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :

Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it  and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.

[TK]

Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :

Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it  and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.

From what I recall, the channel LED light is OFF, so it is deactivated from the user perspective... internally it is active, of course

[rf-loop]

Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :

Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it  and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.

Are you telling that you can not turn off trace display (channel still active), even SDS1kX-E can. This is also useful in other cases than math, if we example need use other channel as Ext trigger and do not want this trace displayed just as with conventional Ext trigger can do (backside of scope). This is also important because normal channel used as ext trig its trigger performance and features are much more than analog pathway conventional Ext trig.
Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?

[Martin72]

Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?

Yep, only the math function "FFT" can be displayed exclusive without having the source channel on screen - Do it ( turn off the source channel)with other math functions, math traces disappearing..

Today testing the mouse/keyboard support by using a wireless mouse - And it goes very well, without problems.
Mouse-pointer will automatically disappear when you disconnect mouse from usb port.

[rf-loop]

You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.

I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance

It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).

May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory (if this miraculous "clever parallel acquisition system" is doing magic things like some may dream)
Next later no anymore trigger events and user press stop.

After then he think he zoom and pan to captured details outside of display as here have discussed around this case lot of... 

I do not want assume anything, so I ask.

[rf-loop]

Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?

Yep, only the math function "FFT" can be displayed exclusive without having the source channel on screen - Do it ( turn off the source channel)with other math functions, math traces disappearing..

So there is trace display off feature but it do not work? If so there is mistake in FW.


But then you tell "(turn off the source channel)".  I am now really confused... turn source channel off  or turn trace display off  if this feature is there available... do you mean "turn off the source channel" mean in your text that you turn off trace (but channel of course stay on).

Turning channel OFF in my mind mean shut channel off what also shut off its trace display.

Turning channel trace display OFF in my mind mean leaving channel working background but shut off its trace display from TFT. 
This is how it works in some other Siglent and for this they have separate feature in menu where this trace display can set on or off without shutting channel off.

[Martin72]

I am now really confused.

Me too. 
I can tell you what I'm used to with the lecroy scopes:
Signal on e.g. channel one, channel one knob is lightning and trace was visible on the screen.
You are going to do a math function, choose the source to channel 1 and the function will be displayed on the screen too.
Now I only want to have this math trace on the screen, so I press the channel one knob, knob lightning is off, channel one trace on the screen is off too, math trace of channel one is still visible.

This is what I mean, it SEEMS that channel one is off because it´s not visible on the screen and knob, but still math trace will be displayed.

So there is trace display off feature but it do not work?

The FFT function is somekind of a "stand alone" feature.
You can choose to display it with the source, with the source in split screen or only the FFT, this is called "exclusive".

[nctnico]

You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.

I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance

It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).

May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory

Long memory. One of my oscilloscope use cases is not even to press stop before scrolling left & right but staying in normal mode. Press as least buttons as possible.

[Martin72]

About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.

Read it too and interesting, on SDS1104X-E it is in the same way implemented.
While studying the SDS5000 manual, a hi-res mode is missed there - The SDS 2000X-plus ( god I hate the designation) got this 8bit/10bit thing, it could be considered as a hi-res mode, I guess.
On the other hand, an average mode is missed on the SDS2000X-plus.
List is getting longer.

[TK]

About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.

Read it too and interesting, on SDS1104X-E it is in the same way implemented.
While studying the SDS5000 manual, a hi-res mode is missed there - The SDS 2000X-plus ( god I hate the designation) got this 8bit/10bit thing, it could be considered as a hi-res mode, I guess.
On the other hand, an average mode is missed on the SDS2000X-plus.
List is getting longer.

Do you mean it does not have average acquisition mode?

[Martin72]

Hi,

Yep, it doesnt have an average mode - I´m sure it would be "forgotten" and will be fixed, because nearly every scope on the market got it.

[nctnico]

Isn't there an average mode as a math function in the SDS2000X+? If I had to make a bet right now I'd bet there is. You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace (for example FFT) so you can average FFT.

[thinkfat]

Isn't there an average mode as a math function in the SDS2000X+? If I had to make a bet right now I'd bet there is. You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace (for example FFT) so you can average FFT.

Now, that would be nifty!

[Martin72]

@nctnico:

You´re right, they put the average function in math like the eres.

You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace

Manual says nothing about the possible sources for math, must check this directly, if there is a math on math function avaible.

[Martin72]

Yep, math on math is possible - But not in every case…

You can do a FFT of math function one, but you can´t use the average function on FFT.

[nctnico]

But is there a way to average FFT? And while we are at it: FFT min hold / max hold?

[0xdeadbeef]

Again, the SDS5000X manual/datasheet emphasizes that averaging and Eres are done in hardware (supposedly by the FPGA) while this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. And obviously a post-capture math function is fundamentally different from a a filter that is performed before actually writing the samples into memory.
Given that the SDS2000X+ was released after the SDS5000X, omitting the HW support for averaging/Eres seems to be a deliberate choice and not a bug or mistake. Maybe this is a result of using a less capable FPGA, but honestly I would assume this (and other things like the missing qualified trigger) could be more of a way of differentiation between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X