Author Topic: Siglent SDS2000X Plus  (Read 131383 times)

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Offline Someone

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #225 on: January 25, 2020, 01:46:53 am »
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application. Even when it is useful (which is not obvious to most users as exampled here) you insist that using a zoom window as the solution (which most scopes support for this use case) is somehow not usable at all.

You make it a noisy problem, the rest of us get on with life and work. Sure it might be really important to you, but that doesn't represent the market/users as a whole.
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #226 on: January 25, 2020, 01:56:10 am »
I find myself using it more than you'd think(I also use auto which is enough to fill screen). It's really nice when using decoding and debugging issues in my real-time systems. I trigger where I suspect and also see everything else around it which USUALLY give me more hints without manually searching.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #227 on: January 25, 2020, 02:05:27 am »
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application.
It is certainly not a niche application; there are several others who agree with me. 'Recording outside the screen' is a huge productivity boost for debugging / verifying embedded / mixed signal systems where you usually have a screen crammed full with various signals. You may not see it as such but it is like using shoes with laces versus slippers if you have to walk in & out of the house all the time (without keeping shoes on inside the house). Actually the original SDS2000 had 'recording outside the screen' in the first firmware releases but it would not always retain this setting which was already a nuisance. When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 02:09:52 am by nctnico »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #228 on: January 25, 2020, 03:12:35 am »
Quote from: nctnico

When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.

Also example I have needed this and many times. Some cases solved using always background working acquisition buffer (example serial bus messages) and some cases solved using normal zoom, example some circuit safe brown down sequence.
Also today possible to set trigger reference position to fixed memory position is some advantage least for me in these cases.

With full window zoom (usual DSO with long memory acq mode) can not see hidden parts what is some times poor but with Siglent you are forced to see both (why some peoples do not like see whole memory lenght in runtime is a complete mystery to me, except bit too small display area) , details in zoom window and you see also whole acquisition length and possible to see some useful there. Only disadvantage is with windowed zoom with full memory length display that display area in TFT is small if there is lot of traces. If there is more room for both windows, Siglent solution is imho supergood least for me.
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #229 on: January 25, 2020, 03:22:51 am »
You should try the R&S then. It's even better(objectively)
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #230 on: January 25, 2020, 07:31:06 am »
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application.
It is certainly not a niche application; there are several others who agree with me. 'Recording outside the screen' is a huge productivity boost for debugging / verifying embedded / mixed signal systems where you usually have a screen crammed full with various signals. You may not see it as such but it is like using shoes with laces versus slippers if you have to walk in & out of the house all the time (without keeping shoes on inside the house). Actually the original SDS2000 had 'recording outside the screen' in the first firmware releases but it would not always retain this setting which was already a nuisance. When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
Way to chop out the quote just to perpetuate the noise...

Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application. Even when it is useful (which is not obvious to most users as exampled here) you insist that using a zoom window as the solution (which most scopes support for this use case) is somehow not usable at all.
You can acquire once, using the zoom window or several other options.
  • You like to have a narrow time slice on the screen in real time, and then jump back out to see the context around it. We get that.
  • You could use the zoom window, and achieve the exact same thing but lose some vertical space while in realtime. Sees both the context and the fine detail simultaneously. When stopped you can close the zoom window and regain all the space again, no different to your memory outside the window approach once stopped.
  • You could capture a wider acquisition and navigate down into once stopped.
You've yet to provide any specific examples where its useful to have a realtime view of a narrow time slice of many signals vertically and then once stopped move around the captured. Where both all the signals need to be visible vertically in the realtime and in a narrow window simultaneously, with the additional constraint that despite wanting realtime view you couldn't view this repetitive event and then take a single capture at a longer acquisition depth.

Either its repetitive and you can deal with spinning the horizontal control to go out to a wider view, or its not repetitive and the realtime view of the narrow segment is your imaginary hard requirement. Looking at a short time base to setup the details of a trigger is normal enough, but then its triggering and you don't need to inspect it any more, then move the acquisition window to capture what you're trying to observe.
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #231 on: January 25, 2020, 08:43:07 am »
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #232 on: January 25, 2020, 09:06:16 am »
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Some people see the extension of memory around the visible window as cumbersome by lacking controls of its position and having to use menus to change memory depths manually, when compared to the other methods using auto/maximum memory depth. But I don't push the point endlessly and try to say everything should work the way I prefer.

What the SDS2000 Plus does have is the very practical history buffer (so much more useful than segmented capture modes that don't have a continuous ring buffer of captures) alone a reason to need some memory depth controls.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #233 on: January 25, 2020, 10:21:31 am »
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Exactly!

You've yet to provide any specific examples where its useful to have a realtime view of a narrow time slice of many signals vertically and then once stopped move around the captured.
I have done that several times already. Just read. Sure you can make-do with work-around but why use a make-do solution if you can get something more productive? All the alternative ways you list mean doing more work. And there is no reason at all for Siglent not to implement recording beyond the screen. The original SDS2000 even had it!

Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 10:27:04 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #234 on: January 25, 2020, 10:41:09 am »
There is no agueing around that
Beacuse you say so...  great explanation.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #235 on: January 25, 2020, 10:42:13 am »
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Exactly! See my shoes versus slippers example. Sure you can make-do with work-around but why use a make-do solution if you can get something more productive? And there is no reason at all for Siglent not to implement recording beyond the screen. The original SDS2000 even had it !
When you work out why it was dropped then we'll all breathe easier.  :phew:

Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.

I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !

The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
Now you are moving the goal posts trying to make it look like it is never good enough for me.
Nope !
I thought you were smart enough to put 2+2 together but maybe not and you're just having your fun here  :horse:
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #236 on: January 25, 2020, 10:58:47 am »
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Quote
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:02:27 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #237 on: January 25, 2020, 11:25:29 am »
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Quote
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
 

I have difficulties to understand why it is better when user see less at runtime.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #238 on: January 25, 2020, 11:54:18 am »
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div  / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.

Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:57:57 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #239 on: January 25, 2020, 04:21:02 pm »
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Welcome to my world. You still have some learning to do.
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
Really ?  :-//
Having owned a good few scopes before I got involved with Siglent, this I do understand and adaption to each of their capabilities was paramount to productivity yet none had the power and capability of even a $499 4ch Siglent X-E.
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div  / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.

Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
:-DD  :clap:  :blah:
 :wtf: we're back in the beginners forum !
Actually quite amazing you could see all that past that glossy display.

^ This is the real power of a DSO, the ability to capture events.......oh hang on, fingers weren't connected to the bit between ears so to make good setup decisions while setting up for a single shot......no matter as Siglents History can come to your rescue. A single press of the History button is more productive than the twiddling of knobs you hate so much.
But hey, maybe a $350 DSO can better suit your needs for piss simple requirements.  :-\
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #240 on: January 25, 2020, 04:33:43 pm »
The discussion has been pretty civil up to now. Unfortunately it seems this is about to change. I'll find my way out, thank you.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #241 on: January 25, 2020, 04:45:57 pm »
Nevertheless, we should going back to topic and discuss the memory thing somewhere else.
 
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Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #242 on: January 25, 2020, 09:28:40 pm »
Getting back into topic...

About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz.   :popcorn:
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #243 on: January 25, 2020, 09:44:32 pm »
Quote
it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz

And I have to thank you for making it possible  :) :-+

Martin
 
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Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #244 on: January 25, 2020, 10:00:45 pm »
Martin, it's time for a BW sweep and to see how it behaves.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #245 on: January 25, 2020, 10:06:08 pm »
Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed


« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 10:12:04 pm by Martin72 »
 

Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #246 on: January 25, 2020, 10:19:46 pm »
OK, then lower timescale (just on the rising) and do some averaging.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #247 on: January 25, 2020, 11:41:43 pm »
OK, "tomorrow"... ;)

Another thing:

My siglent seems to be much noiseless as my former rigol 5074.
Apart from this, it shows no bandwith-limiting in the lower voltage ranges…
From 2mV on (till 500µV) rigol shows a "B" for bandwith-limited in this ranges.
Could this be real, no bandwith-limiting in that ranges ?


 
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #248 on: January 25, 2020, 11:52:49 pm »

Could this be real, no bandwidth-limiting in that ranges ?
Apparently so, no mention of auto BW limiting in the user manual or datasheet.
Only user selection of 20 or 200 MHz.
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #249 on: January 26, 2020, 12:16:04 am »
I will test again the ripple-noise of one of my linear power supplies, like I did with the rigol (and was a little bit disappointing about the noise- The first step I want to change the scope).
Apart from the "unholy" memory discussion, actual it´s a very nice scope for me.
The menu structure, the fast responsive of nearly everything are really impressive.
The rubber-coated handle....nice  ;D
More or less silent noiselevel (fan).
Actually, it´s a fine thing.


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