Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's

[Antonio90]

Thats really interesting info. Thanks!

[Neutrion]

Well of course the SW enabled things are a ripoff.

You're not a software engineer, are you?  They do generally like to be paid for the work they are asked to do, as they like to eat and live in houses.  Do you consider the monetary value of your own labours to be a ripoff?

Software isn't free.  Not even open source, although some people seem to think that these things are synonymous.  Software development costs can be a very large contributor to a project and, as ebastler has very articulately explained twice already, these costs have to be amortised over all models in a range.  Either everyone pays more, or premium users carry the higher burden.  I think most hobbyists are very glad that the latter is in effect.

Did you read back the discussion? We have been debating about what is "artificially" made by the manufacturer and what is that is like it is, because of technical reason.
When the sw is there already, and has to be only enabled is the first category, that is what I called ripoff. How much percent of subsidy goes where, we can only guess. We have to note also that there is probably way more cheap stuff sold, so it could be the other way as well for the smaller margin stuff all in all making much more money and making the higher-end things cheaper.

[NE666]

Did you read back the discussion?

Yes, closely.  A very interesting debate.

When the sw is there already, and has to be only enabled is the first category, that is what I called ripoff.

Ripoff - "a fraud or swindle, especially something that is grossly overpriced."

You want more functionality, you pay more, regardless of the mechanism of implementation.  I see nothing in the feature-based licensing model that can be inherently defined as as a ripoff.  It's just another expression of everyday capitalism and consumerism.  YMMV

[Neutrion]

You can use a better word if you like. If there is any for the thing we discussed.

[Veteran68]

There is no "ripoff" here. It's simply market economics at play.

The market will only bear what people are willing to pay. People are willing to pay much more than the cost of a Siglent for the same Lecroy model, because reasons. Same as with Fluke vs cheaper and arguably more capable meters. Same as with Lexus vs Toyota. Apple vs Dell. Just because *you* aren't and think it's stupid, doesn't mean the market-at-large agrees with you.

And +1 to the software engineering argument. Software development costs can and often do exceed hardware development costs. Good software engineers are typically paid more than hardware engineers and designers, and good software development often takes longer. Developing multiple codebases for different product lines just multiplies that expense. It makes far more business sense to build a common codebase across a minimum of hardware configurations and use upgrades to widen margins and generate recurring revenue streams. And professional users and companies are willing to pay it. Hobbyists, not so much, but hobby users are not where they're looking for those revenue streams.

They turn a blind eye to us hobbyists hacking our equipment, because almost none of us would have paid for the more expensive stuff anyway. And no respectable company will be hacking their products, they'll be paying for those upgrades, whether its from Siglent or Keysight or Tektronics. So it makes perfect business sense.

Of course, it should go without saying, that higher end products sell fewer units, and therefore must have higher margins to be sustainable and maintain a similar quality of earnings. Lower-cost products make up for their thinner margins through sheer volume, which is made possible by their more approachable cost, but can also carry more operating costs and burden.

I get the impression that some of you, while you might be BRILLIANT engineers, have very little common business sense. Which isn't surprising, as engineers we tend to care little about such things... unless we happen to run an engineering company, and even then, we've all probably seen some bright engineers totally tank a business.

[Warhawk]

You can use a better word if you like. If there is any for the thing we discussed.

It's called "pricing".

Jeez, it's been quite a while since Hungary adopted capitalism. How about you adopt it too? 

To be fair they have been recently trying to go back to the old model.

[Neutrion]

You can use a better word if you like. If there is any for the thing we discussed.

It's called "pricing".

You can use a better word if you like. If there is any for the thing we discussed.

It's called "pricing".

No, we were discussing the reasons for differences in pricing and HW costs.
But if you are a well experienced "capitalist" I hope you can find a better word for the "Costs which can not be explained by actual HW costs or the overall implementation cost of a given HW including SW engineering."
    

[Martin72]

Are you guys bored?

[Neutrion]

Are you guys bored?

Yep, waiting for the SDS800X HD to show up. So we have all the time in the world... 

And spending it in a useful way.

[KungFuJosh]

And spending it in a useful way.

I agree that the pricing game with licensing is annoying, but I don't agree that they should do away with it. Software has ongoing development, and I'm sure their pricing models help.

I look at it this way: if the company has a choice between:

1) charging $1400 for a fully loaded SDS2504XP
or
2) charging the hardware + licensing value of $7000 for the same unit,

they would not take the cheaper option. Fewer people would be able to afford anything reasonable.

Offering the $1400 version + license options helps keep them profitable- which makes support a reality. The hobby / home market may take advantage of "free improvements" while corporations will pay for the additional licenses, especially when certification matters.

If a company plays the same games, but doesn't offer good support, and eventually some feature updates, then I would certainly avoid them.

[tautech]

I think you're confusing something here. There has never been any official announcement of an SDS1000X HD.

Well, both the SDS800X HD and the 1000 X HD (back in March) were announced here by tautech. He is on a contract with Siglent, and it seems very clear to me that he only announces what Siglent authorizes him to make public. (He has made little hints with a "sorry, can't tell you more yet" disclaimer more than once. Which is fine, but tells me that what he does post, he has been authorized to release.)

So in my understanding, the SDS800X HD and the 1000X HD (a long time ago) have been "announced" here with Siglent's blessing.

None of which is true.
I act on products I discover online, with or without blessings from Siglent HQ.

They have expressed concerns in the past but TBH once any product is online it's fair game and others have taken this approach on forthcoming products also.

[sebyon]

I think you're confusing something here. There has never been any official announcement of an SDS1000X HD.

Well, both the SDS800X HD and the 1000 X HD (back in March) were announced here by tautech. He is on a contract with Siglent, and it seems very clear to me that he only announces what Siglent authorizes him to make public. (He has made little hints with a "sorry, can't tell you more yet" disclaimer more than once. Which is fine, but tells me that what he does post, he has been authorized to release.)

So in my understanding, the SDS800X HD and the 1000X HD (a long time ago) have been "announced" here with Siglent's blessing.

The 1000X HD announcement, especially the one about the upgraded specs, has certainly derailed my decision-making process a bit and has left a sour aftertaste. Anyway, Black Friday business is over, Christmas and year-end business will be over soon, I have made my decision, and Siglent's release schedule is no longer my problem. 

Yeah... tautech wasn't even the first person on this forum to bring up the SDS800X HD, someone else found it from an open source announcement that Siglent published...

[tautech]

MSO capable models to 200 MHz.....

7" Touch display with mouse support, 1024x600 resolution

Q for those with prerelease units.

SDS1000X HD supports USB mouse and keyboard, does SDS800X HD also ?
Datasheet is not explicitly clear about this.
TIA

[tv84]

You can be an "authorised Siglent distributor" without a contract with Siglent? Interesting.

If info is public knowledge, then confidentiality doesn't apply.

[tv84]

Is it some kind of ritual? 

 

[2N3055]

You can be an "authorised Siglent distributor" without a contract with Siglent? Interesting.

If info is public knowledge, then confidentiality doesn't apply.

Yes, sure. But, to stick with the most recent example: Have the SDS800X HD specs been public knowledge before tautech published them? I still can't find them anywhere via Google. In my understanding, evaluation units are with a few beta testers -- surely under CDA -- and a preliminary datasheet has just been sent to some distributors, with instructions not to share the document.

On a related note, I am really intrigued that tautech claims not to have a contract with Siglent. How do they "authorize" their distributors? Is it some kind of ritual? 

I think there is a misunderstanding in terminology.

You originally said "he is on contract" which has different meaning from "he has a contract".
I know, English is infuriating sometimes...

"he is on contract" means he is in Siglent's employ. Meaning, he looks down and listen to every word boss says.

"he has a contract" means exactly that. There is contractual agreement of sort on a business cooperation.

Having a sales contract (being Authorized sales partner) has quite a narrow scope. I'm talking here in general.
They will specify quotes, pricing structure, deliveries, some kind of confidentiality agreement.
They don't get to tell you how to do your business. Or behave.
There are many things that are not part of it. You get quite a lot of rope.

If for some reason they don't like how their brand is represented by you because of your general behaviour not mentioned in contract, they can call you up for a meeting and have a discussion. It is up to you if you care.
If they decide your representation is not to their liking, they can always revoke your status. Or threaten with that. It is up to you if you care.

Same as if you are not happy how company which products you are selling treats you or your customers, you complain to them and see if you can resolve the issue. If not, you can always start selling something else.  It is up to them if they care.

That is how it works, simplified.

[2N3055]

"he is on contract" means he is in Siglent's employ. Meaning, he looks down and listen to every word boss says.

Apart from the fact that I wrote "he is on a contract with Siglent", I don't think your interpretation of the phrase is correct. But if you have a dictionary definition handy which confirms that this is the generally accepted meaning, I am always happy to learn.

Having a sales contract (being Authorized sales partner) has quite a narrow scope. I'm talking here in general.
They will specify quotes, pricing structure, deliveries, some kind of confidentiality agreement.

The highlighted part is the relevant one in the present context. I would expect it to state that distributors can't release information they receive directly from Siglent, unless authorized by Siglent to do so.

This is the problem. It is not an Oxford dictionary thing but how is phrase used in colloquial language.

As for confidentiality agreement, like tv84 said, once ANYBODY on a planet publishes a peep about it is not confidential anymore.
There are usually other exclusions as well..

What Tautech does is simply write about things as they appear in Chinese market. It is on Chinese web site in plain view...
He also makes note that is Chinese release.
Then he does like to stir up a speculation if that product will be available on world market...  He IS a salesman after all. 

Siglent might like it or not. I don't know. I'm not comfortable to discuss/speculate/imagine what Rob and Siglent reps discuss.
That is their business.

[Neutrion]

And spending it in a useful way.

I agree that the pricing game with licensing is annoying, but I don't agree that they should do away with it. Software has ongoing development, and I'm sure their pricing models help.

I look at it this way: if the company has a choice between:

1) charging $1400 for a fully loaded SDS2504XP
or
2) charging the hardware + licensing value of $7000 for the same unit,

they would not take the cheaper option. Fewer people would be able to afford anything reasonable.

Offering the $1400 version + license options helps keep them profitable- which makes support a reality. The hobby / home market may take advantage of "free improvements" while corporations will pay for the additional licenses, especially when certification matters.

If a company plays the same games, but doesn't offer good support, and eventually some feature updates, then I would certainly avoid them.

I didn't say I want get rid of it. And instead of rip off I suggest to use " "Costs which can not be explained by actual HW costs or the overall implementation cost of a given HW including SW engineering."
In plain english from now on CWCNBEBAHCOTOICOGHISE.

But anyway I don't think that any of the bottom range-options not enabled scopes are sold at a loss. Maybe the investment is earned back later with those prices, but after that it is just pure profit.
And as we see siglent has enough profit to operate well.
And, by the way the sds2104x-e for example is not a really good 200 Mhz scope while the 1104x-e  is a good 100Mhz one, so  the extra cost is only in marginal cases  justified. (Sample rate, fft aliasing..)
I hope it will bee an option soon to be able to adjust the bandwith.
Somtimes it could be useful, sometimes it would be better to switch back.
At least it would be a good marketing gimmick as a free option.

[tszaboo]

The price difference between the DS7014 and the MSO7014 is 700 EUR, the feature difference is the logic analyzer. Which is blocked out with plastic if
"Oh, you have a nice scope, let's ask more money for the same features."

Except that's not correct, is it.  They are not "the same".  The DS has literally 2.51.25x the sampling rate at full channel, plus 2.5x the memory whilst doing it.  Not to mention that the DS7000 front end is rated up to 500MHz, as compared to 350 on the MSO5000.  These aren't trivial differences.

Which manufacturers do you know that charge less, or even the same, for such a difference?

You assumed I was comparing the MSO7000 to the MSO5000. That's not what I did.
I compared the price premium of the MSO7000 to the DS7000 to the price of the MSO5000.

[tautech]

Anyway, we can let this matter rest. I don't care that much. I just don't understand why there is so much weaseling around this.

Nor do I.

I am currently not bound by NDA but respect the privacy required on some matters like in the Siglent private forum where as their distributor I have been given privileged access, however not to all matters and I am comfortable with this.
I get to see some of the great work that happens behind the scenes.......

[mouz]

Of course this comes just days after I gave in and grabbed a DHO1074 during the BF sale. Not that I regret getting a $1K scope for <$600, and it's probably better in terms of overall features (plus its 10" screen), but if Siglent would have been ready to market in this space I would have preferred to stay with Siglent out of a sense of brand loyalty if nothing else. I have a bunch of Siglent gear, while this Rigol will be the only one I have. Not that I'm a bigot that claims Siglent is better than Rigol in every way, but I'm the type that tends to prefer to "match" my equipment, whether that be my test gear, my audio gear, or my cordless power tools. So in any kind of close race, Siglent would be my go-to choice. But they were late enough to this game, combined with Rigol's aggressive BF deal on the DHO1000, that I felt I was finally pushed to break camp with Siglent. I hope I don't regret it, although I'm sure if I do have second thoughts, I should be able to recoup my investment, maybe more, by selling the DHO1074 (provided they're not unloading to discontinue them, and their resale value plummets).

Yes almost did the same with the deal on the DHO1074. However I really need the portability of the DHO804 and the upcoming SDS800X HD.
At least you have a scope in hands now, I will have to wait on the SDS800X HD. [Even worse now that I am totally without a scope after I sold my Fluke PM97]

[Mortymore]

I think you're confusing something here. There has never been any official announcement of an SDS1000X HD.

Well, both the SDS800X HD and the 1000 X HD (back in March) were announced here by tautech. He is on a contract with Siglent, and it seems very clear to me that he only announces what Siglent authorizes him to make public. (He has made little hints with a "sorry, can't tell you more yet" disclaimer more than once. Which is fine, but tells me that what he does post, he has been authorized to release.)

So in my understanding, the SDS800X HD and the 1000X HD (a long time ago) have been "announced" here with Siglent's blessing.

The 1000X HD announcement, especially the one about the upgraded specs, has certainly derailed my decision-making process a bit and has left a sour aftertaste. Anyway, Black Friday business is over, Christmas and year-end business will be over soon, I have made my decision, and Siglent's release schedule is no longer my problem. 

Yeah... tautech wasn't even the first person on this forum to bring up the SDS800X HD, someone else found it from an open source announcement that Siglent published...

Sometimes is a matter of paying attention.
There's a reference to a SDG8000A Signal Generator, in the newly release of the software EasyWave, that I can't find anywhere.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1000x-waveform-generators/msg5188575/#msg5188575

[KungFuJosh]

(a) there is no public information about the SDS800X HD specifications to be found anywhere (except for this thread now), to my knowledge

That's the real issue right there. You can't find the information, therefore it doesn't exist. That's not how it works.

Do you do IT work? Do you know what makes IT people good at their jobs? They're better at googling than the average person. (The comprehension of the material also helps, but...)

[Martin72]

And, by the way the sds2104x-e for example is not a really good 200 Mhz scope

Where did you get that idea?

[core]

I like Siglent SDS1104X-E a lot. It's the most competent oscilloscope in it's range. A very mature device with the latest firmware.
Siglent is very good to take out the maximum performance from a given hardware. Nothing is wasted.

If SDS800X will be the successor, I'm sure it will be a best buy. Let's hope that the price will be in the DHO900 range, or lower.