Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[bd139]

No coincidence there. Mr Pease was a big influence in my interests

And from the cover of Troubleshooting Analog Circuits, which looks more like what is currently in that box:



I'm sure Bob's breadboard above was relatively neat to start with

[tautech]

Drinking a 4th one of these @ 7.8% to try and help 

Only 2 more to go after that to ease the pain and the 6 pack is gone. 
Just finished my triple CC and coke before bed. 

Budget of $600-1k+ and 100Mhz 4ch to go brand name secondhand 5-10'ish year old or buy disposable Chinese origin new with 'apparently' better features  I have hated with a passion any Chinese based PC interface software but not so sure the early 2000's stuff running Windoze 10 will be any better 

My first DSO was a Tek TDS2012B after having several CRO's and then I knew DSO's were the future. That was long before I got into bed with Siglent in 2013. I still believe that those that have first used a CRO have an advantage of better understanding scope use despite the risk one takes today in buying something well past its 'best before' date.
Today, well pick your poison, but do your homework first. Check and recheck specs, that's what I did before going down the path that has lead me here.
Chinese shite I see you mention, well when I was a kid it was Jap shite and remained that way right through most of my teens.

One thing you mightn't see is how this forum's exposure and publicity of the failings and successes has really helped the Chinese to get their shite together for the benefit of us all.

[beanflying]

Not so much dead bug style as exploded ant nest 

[Specmaster]

No coincidence there. Mr Pease was a big influence in my interests

And from the cover of Troubleshooting Analog Circuits, which looks more like what is currently in that box:



I'm sure Bob's breadboard above was relatively neat to start with

That can't be anything to do with radio frequencies, it'll be full of birdies, whistles, lossy, cross modulation, you name it, makes my resistance decade box a piece of art by comparison [emoji23][emoji23]

[beanflying]

As the owner of a currently 'working' Feeltech Sig Gen Yep chinese sh1T I know about. Their software blows!

Short List is an Agilent 54622D MSO as the oldest I am prepared to spend my $$ on to a brand new Siglent or even a couple of year old 4ch Agilent.

The Secondary school I went to had a couple of Hitachi's and mainly Tek scopes so I was just after the Japanese sh1T thing. Give the Chinese origin product 3-5 years more exposure to the Western requirements and I wouldn't want to have any shares in Keysight-Tek-Fluke etc.

I have been buying from mainland China for well over 20 years and the thing I have stressed all along is that the price is important but the quality and usability is more important. (Not Electronics)

[Specmaster]

As the owner of a currently 'working' Feeltech Sig Gen Yep chinese sh1T I know about. Their software blows!

Short List is an Agilent 54622D MSO as the oldest I am prepared to spend my $$ on to a brand new Siglent or even a couple of year old 4ch Agilent.

The Secondary school I went to had a couple of Hitachi's and mainly Tek scopes so I was just after the Japanese sh1T thing. Give the Chinese origin product 3-5 years more exposure to the Western requirements and I wouldn't want to have any shares in Keysight-Tek-Fluke etc.

I have been buying from mainland China for well over 20 years and the thing I have stressed all along is that the price is important but the quality and usability is more important. (Not Electronics)

I also buy and use a lot of the Chinese "shit" but the funny thing is that it really isn't anywhere near as bad as it is made out to be. Sure you have to inspect it for poor earthing, sleeved earth pins on plugs etc, and bad joints occasionally. The biggest problem is the time it takes to arrive and the lack of manuals, price and performance is usually pretty good.

Remember people used to say Japanese cars were shit years ago but I doubt many would say that today.

[bd139]

My first DSO was a Tek TDS2012B after having several CRO's and then I knew DSO's were the future. That was long before I got into bed with Siglent in 2013. I still believe that those that have first used a CRO have an advantage of better understanding scope use despite the risk one takes today in buying something well past its 'best before' date.
Today, well pick your poison, but do your homework first. Check and recheck specs, that's what I did before going down the path that has lead me here.
Chinese shite I see you mention, well when I was a kid it was Jap shite and remained that way right through most of my teens.

One thing you mightn't see is how this forum's exposure and publicity of the failings and successes has really helped the Chinese to get their shite together for the benefit of us all.

Going to have a mini-rant here. I don't think we're anywhere near something I'd classify as a good experience yet.

My first digital scope was an HP 54601A at university which was pretty new back then. I say mine, because I used to get to the lab early so I can grab one of the benches with one on. They had 3 on the entire site and usually only one in the lab that was available and everyone else had 20MHz Goldstar scopes. Looking back from more modern DSOs, it felt entirely like an analogue scope. It was fast, responsive and quite frankly a joy to use. Controls were responsive, it was ridiculously fast, really usable and entirely bug free. It was more like a 24xx series scope from Tektronix but with digital capture and persistence than a more modern DSO. It had a usable but not spectacular single-shot mode (20MS/s).

Fast forward merely 25 years, and the Chinese aren't even half way there, at least with my DS1054Z and all similarly priced competitors. They're slow, buggy, noisy, unreliable, low quality and the usability is down the toilet. And on top of that we have licensing games now. Much like the Japanese, the software sucks monkey dick.

But then again I look at the competitors, such as Keysight and the capital cost for something not a whole load better is ridiculous.

There's basically crap on the market now. I don't think we need more features. We need more quality, to get us back to where we were 25 years ago.

E3631A + 54601B + 33120A + 34401A = pinnacle.

[bd139]

That can't be anything to do with radio frequencies, it'll be full of birdies, whistles, lossy, cross modulation, you name it, makes my resistance decade box a piece of art by comparison [emoji23][emoji23]

That's the prototype for an IC. Think it was a voltage to frequency one. Basically it's lots of canned bits of silicon "standard cells" which are wired up to do a task with discretes (resistors, small capacitors). Then when that's working Bob lays it all out on silicon.

Back in the distant past, I wanted to do that and sat there drawing squares on Cadence VLSI on a Sun machine and realised the golden years were gone and that it was all CAD and boring as fuck

[tautech]

As the owner of a currently 'working' Feeltech Sig Gen Yep chinese sh1T I know about. Their software blows!

Short List is an Agilent 54622D MSO as the oldest I am prepared to spend my $$ on to a brand new Siglent or even a couple of year old 4ch Agilent.

The Secondary school I went to had a couple of Hitachi's and mainly Tek scopes so I was just after the Japanese sh1T thing. Give the Chinese origin product 3-5 years more exposure to the Western requirements and I wouldn't want to have any shares in Keysight-Tek-Fluke etc.

I have been buying from mainland China for well over 20 years and the thing I have stressed all along is that the price is important but the quality and usability is more important. (Not Electronics)

On 2nd triple CC and coke so if this doesn't make sense have another and we'll be on the same wavelength. 

When I took the offer for NZ dist for Siglent I was pretty naive about test equipment despite electronics being of great interest since short pants days. Their gear was OK back then....looking back....but I was determined that lots could be improved with the gear itself and communication with users. Building stock and demo units to what I have now has given me much understanding of the people involved in China and how to get the best from them for yours and my benefit. Visiting the factory in 2014 while enroute to Thailand for my sons wedding opened some doors but nothing like reporting all the problems and bugs that come to light from users of this forum. 
The Chinese don't like admitting any error or mistake but clear explanation of the problem, the remedy, the benefits and how it might be applied to other models in a range certainly gets them thinking that it's a good path to follow. Be the lead sheep and the mob will follow. 
Hell this year they even asked me to be a beta tester.   

Siglent haven't got a massive range of equipment but take it from me there is more to come and if it's as big step as their new 4ch entry level unit it will be very interesting next year.
I'm here every day, 365 of them so give me shite about their products and be sure it'll be passed on. 

[beanflying]

My 'Taiwanese' coffee roaster is a great example of what can be done with good feedback. This company has relocated to mainland china now but maintains a much more proactive response to product issues.

I took delivery of the second one in the country and within 3 months almost all of my feedback had been acted on for the next model. This company continues to thrive and keep pace because it listens.

Getting this message through to a more traditional mainland Chinese company is a totally different ballgame as can be witnessed by the Feeltech thread 

Owning your issues and working to improve a product is tough for some.

[tautech]

My first DSO was a Tek TDS2012B after having several CRO's and then I knew DSO's were the future. That was long before I got into bed with Siglent in 2013. I still believe that those that have first used a CRO have an advantage of better understanding scope use despite the risk one takes today in buying something well past its 'best before' date.
Today, well pick your poison, but do your homework first. Check and recheck specs, that's what I did before going down the path that has lead me here.
Chinese shite I see you mention, well when I was a kid it was Jap shite and remained that way right through most of my teens.

One thing you mightn't see is how this forum's exposure and publicity of the failings and successes has really helped the Chinese to get their shite together for the benefit of us all.

Going to have a mini-rant here. I don't think we're anywhere near something I'd classify as a good experience yet.
..............


Fast forward merely 25 years, and the Chinese aren't even half way there, at least with my DS1054Z and all similarly priced competitors. They're slow, buggy, noisy, unreliable, low quality and the usability is down the toilet. And on top of that we have licensing games now. Much like the Japanese, the software sucks monkey dick.

Understood.
But you're comparing today's entry level with professional equipment, is that entirely fair to do so ?
I'm not about to go to bat for Rigol but this end of the market is not the most profitable and less resources are invested into lower profit products.
BTW, they've courted me to take on their products but when I see their lack of response to reported bugs in this forum I say, no way jose. (Pluses  )

[bd139]

I think it's fair to compare entry level equipment now with professional stuff made 25 years ago.

Otherwise what is the market proposition for buying something made in 2017?

[tautech]

My 'Taiwanese' coffee roaster is a great example of what can be done with good feedback. This company has relocated to mainland china now but maintains a much more proactive response to product issues.

I took delivery of the second one in the country and within 3 months almost all of my feedback had been acted on for the next model. This company continues to thrive and keep pace because it listens.

Owning your issues and working to improve a product is tough for some.

I deal a bit with Pintech in Taiwan and indeed they too are good listeners. 

Understanding the culture (and that takes a while) certainly helps you get noticed and accepted.

[tautech]

I think it's fair to compare entry level equipment now with professional stuff made 25 years ago.

Otherwise what is the market proposition for buying something made in 2017?

Better spec'ed.

Today, if there's a problem and the manufacturer listens, then a firmware update fixes most things if the HW is right in the first instance.


2nd triple CC really kicking in.     

[beanflying]

And thats partly why my brain hurts 

Heart says 10-15 year old Agilent but Brain reading specs on face value says otherwise.

Whatever I decide on will generally be more than I need. My piss poor Hantek 20MegHurtZ has done the job in between glitches and regular software crashes.

[bd139]

Depends on your use case. Specifications and use cases are difficult to map.

At this point I’m aware I could have done better than the DS1054Z for the money if I’d skipped back in time. I could solve the same problems

[tautech]

And thats partly why my brain hurts 

Have another beer. 

Heart says 10-15 year old Agilent but Brain reading specs on face value says otherwise.

Whatever I decide on will generally be more than I need.

Yep.
What we've seen for the last few years in test equipment is "oneupmanship".

Every manufacturer trying to add another 'feature' into an already crammed box.
Not all work as intended and there's plenty of examples on the forum of even the big brands falling short on published specs.
But today firmware remedies exist where they didn't decades ago and for those patient and confident that a manufacturer will fix deficiencies then modern equipment is a better choice.

Toddles stumbles off to bed.

[Specmaster]

Update on the current state of my lab. HP8657A on it's way to be added later.
Idea is that I am going to build a bunch of 19" wide racks on top, 4 or 5U high, and have above that be shelves. That way big rack gear can sit in a rack safely, and I have shelving above it to put smaller stuff, parts bins, etc.
Really happy how this turned out, massive depth (1m30 iirc). about 1m05 high so I can work while standing up. The thing is so deep my girlfriend can't easily reach any gear ('tis not a bug, its a feature!).

Now that has the potential to become a real fab lab. Where is that, in a garage or basement? Love the work bench, plenty of space to dump large pieces of kit for repair on without fear of it falling off.

[Specmaster]

I've just been given a 30" LCD monitor that is allegedly not working, not tested it as yet but it does come with seperate 24v 5A power supply which is working. So if I'm unable to resurrect the monitor, the power supply will find a new use supplying power to another T12 soldering station so thats an added bonus 

[Specmaster]

If anyone is thinking about buying a desoldering station, then now might be a really good time to do, CPC have this Duratool ZD-915 on offer in their sale and it really is a good tool and will even clean SMD pads and leave them perfectly flat ready for mounting new parts onto. I have one of these and it has one of my best purchases to date. Sale ends 9th Feb.

[bd139]

I've just been given a 30" LCD monitor that is allegedly not working, not tested it as yet but it does come with seperate 24v 5A power supply which is working. So if I'm unable to resurrect the monitor, the power supply will find a new use supplying power to another T12 soldering station so thats an added bonus 

That's a win either way. That's a pretty hefty power supply.

I found my other box of power supplies earlier (hiding in the larder). Actually found a Toshiba charger that already has the right plug and is 20.6V out at 3.42A. Hopefully plug and play, or burn fingers no doubt 

[Specmaster]

I've just been given a 30" LCD monitor that is allegedly not working, not tested it as yet but it does come with seperate 24v 5A power supply which is working. So if I'm unable to resurrect the monitor, the power supply will find a new use supplying power to another T12 soldering station so thats an added bonus 

That's a win either way. That's a pretty hefty power supply.

I found my other box of power supplies earlier (hiding in the larder). Actually found a Toshiba charger that already has the right plug and is 20.6V out at 3.42A. Hopefully plug and play, or burn fingers no doubt 

You'll be OK, every confidence in you.

Well I've checked the list that mnementh suggests but he's looking at reusing the linear power supply from a fake Hakko 936 or similar so its going to be a reasonably good sized item once assembled.

In all honesty the only things I think I could and probably will go with is the "Blue" controller he recommends and the handle, the enclosure I'll stick with the same as I already have with the IEC connector not the "clover leaf" as the one he suggests (unfused) as I have loads of IEC leads to spare, and I'll use another psu same as in the Quicko as I know it works and I also know to earth the system safely. Total cost will be £36.15 or if I reuse the monitor psu, £26.38. I'll have to change the plug over from the current 4 pin din type to a 5.5 x 2.1 plug but I have plenty of those and sockets in my parts bin. That psu is too long to fit inside the enclosure so it will have to be external and I could remove the IEC to prevent some clown plugging a power cord into it.

Now to have a look at the monitor and see if I can salvage it before I order the parts for T12 MK2 as the sale ends soon.
+

[BU508A]

If anyone is thinking about buying a desoldering station, then now might be a really good time to do, CPC have this Duratool ZD-915 on offer in their sale and it really is a good tool and will even clean SMD pads and leave them perfectly flat ready for mounting new parts onto. I have one of these and it has one of my best purchases to date. Sale ends 9th Feb.

Is this the same desoldering station as this one?
https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/sp-1010dr/desoldering-stations/solder-peak/



To me, it is looking very similar.

[Specmaster]

If anyone is thinking about buying a desoldering station, then now might be a really good time to do, CPC have this Duratool ZD-915 on offer in their sale and it really is a good tool and will even clean SMD pads and leave them perfectly flat ready for mounting new parts onto. I have one of these and it has one of my best purchases to date. Sale ends 9th Feb.

Is this the same desoldering station as this one?
https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/sp-1010dr/desoldering-stations/solder-peak/



To me, it is looking very similar.

Yes it is the same, it is sold under many names in different parts of the world and the colour also changes and sometimes the holder is hung on the left side.

[mnementh]

I've just been given a 30" LCD monitor that is allegedly not working, not tested it as yet but it does come with seperate 24v 5A power supply which is working. So if I'm unable to resurrect the monitor, the power supply will find a new use supplying power to another T12 soldering station so thats an added bonus 

That's a win either way. That's a pretty hefty power supply.

I found my other box of power supplies earlier (hiding in the larder). Actually found a Toshiba charger that already has the right plug and is 20.6V out at 3.42A. Hopefully plug and play, or burn fingers no doubt 

You'll be OK, every confidence in you.

Well I've checked the list that mnementh suggests but he's looking at reusing the linear power supply from a fake Hakko 936 or similar so its going to be a reasonably good sized item once assembled.

In all honesty the only things I think I could and probably will go with is the "Blue" controller he recommends and the handle, the enclosure I'll stick with the same as I already have with the IEC connector not the "clover leaf" as the one he suggests (unfused) as I have loads of IEC leads to spare, and I'll use another psu same as in the Quicko as I know it works and I also know to earth the system safely. Total cost will be £36.15 or if I reuse the monitor psu, £26.38. I'll have to change the plug over from the current 4 pin din type to a 5.5 x 2.1 plug but I have plenty of those and sockets in my parts bin. That psu is too long to fit inside the enclosure so it will have to be external and I could remove the IEC to prevent some clown plugging a power cord into it.

Now to have a look at the monitor and see if I can salvage it before I order the parts for T12 MK2 as the sale ends soon.
+

No, I was just stating the intended design of the original open-source project; it was to convert any of the oodles of clone 937 soldering stations that were well-known to die a fiery death. My intent was to make a station with a boost converter inside that could power the OLED T12 Controller from any 12V-24V DC power source of sufficient current.

I forgot that banggood has a 100-220VAC-24VDC/4A SMPS board that should work with any of these enclosures (US$7-12 Depending on where it's coming from). It has grounded screw hole mounting and fused input, so the non-fused cloverleaf power plug on their extruded AL brick-style enclosure is a non-issue. I've updated the original post with that item as well.


mnem
The tooth says WHEEEEE!