Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[SilverSolder]

Got to give my local citroen people their due. When you take the car in, they give it a full check over from top to bottom, send you an email with a link to a summary web page that has all the detail, photos, videos of the mechanic's findings (for example showing me brake disc thickness with calipers), use original parts only and get it unfucked in under 6 hours.

That's pretty impressive!  -  that would really increase my trust in a dealership, if they did that kind of stuff.   

These days, the cost of labour and parts are so high that bodging is no longer acceptable at all - it has to be 100% high quality through and through for consumers to pony up hundreds or even thousands to get stuff fixed that would not have cost that much in the past.  I can still recall paying 30 quid for entire exhaust systems for old Escorts etc...

[bd139]

It's pretty good indeed. Couple of screenshots...





(ignore the quoted price - their service is fixed price. Front discs, brakes including fitting were 279).

I got the tyres done via blackcircles.com as they were cheaper and do it on your property while you wait.

Dealer is Robins and Day: https://www.robinsandday.co.uk/

[med6753]

Did that price of approx $364 USD include new rotors too with the brake pads and labor? If yes, decent price.    If no, meh.     

[mnementh]

Getting things organized is hard. I dedicated 1 bin (and several small crafts type organizers for SMA stuff) to RF connections, cables, etc. Other bins for other things, but it's scary how quickly bins become catch alls when you get lazy and just want the clutter gone yesterday.

One thing's for sure, when I get moved and have proper benches, I'm going to get at least a couple of these for organizing RF plumbing and small parts.

Duck that noise. I can see a stack of Plano boxes; and if I had the money I'd TOTALLY be Sortimo's bitch. But no way in Hell I'm gonna buy a rollaway toolbox JUST for consumables. I gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE. 

This country is becoming nastier and less tolerant in many ways Wait until your/my local police have been sent to N Ireland and Kent.

I genuinely don't think it has become worse. The vile things I've heard over the years in closed circles, even from my own family members, suggest that some people have been waiting quietly for their views to be legitimised. Unfortunately this has happened.

The problems we have are: education, austerity, propaganda, personality cults, religion and the fact that we transitioned to a service economy rather quickly.

People will always be people. The legitimisation is indeed the problem, together with the "don't trust the experts" mantra beloved of some Dunning-Kruger politicians and svengalis.

When it all goes wrong, we'll be transitioning out of a service economy rather quickly

But all that is too close to politics. 'Nuff said.

Mmmhmmmm... Yes, you'll transition from a service economy to an extraction economy like we have. Good luck widdat. 

mnem
I need coffee to clear my vision enough that I can make coffee.

[worsthorse]

I went to the container store (simultaneously one of the best and worst stores ever  ) and got more of these super handy bins that have a lid that's actually a small bin. Using them to round up small things around the lab as I prepare to move.

In other news, more AGC pr0n:

And bonus points for the tasty test gear pr0n in the background. 

That's just nerdy on a whole other level 

At home i have a crate of a dozen "large clip boxes" waiting, which i use to store parts, small PCBs, and kits. There are already a bunch of them filled with sorted parts.  These bins are about 15cm deep and letter paper sized. The lids have locking handles to keep them from opening.  Perfect for small parts storage.

I started inventory and organizing ing my parts after working with a couple of hams who had closets filled to the brim with random cardboard boxes filled with of random pulled parts. Since then, I have spent many happy hours sorting piles of parts into "dip containers" and then sorting these into clip boxes. 

And let's not talk about the 12 gallon bins with sorted cables, variable capacitors, PCB stock, etc or the sixty-four drawer cabinets for semiconductors, ICs, and hardware...

So not only am I a hoarder, I am a hoarder with OCD. 

[bd139]

Did that price of approx $364 USD include new rotors too with the brake pads and labor? If yes, decent price.    If no, meh.     

Yeah rotors are called discs here. So that's two discs, 4 brake pads, labour and inspection video and photos for fixed price including tax. They also replaced all the spark plugs, gearbox and engine oil, regassed the air con, updated software, changed oil/pollen filters, checked power steering, brake fluid, cleaned every inch of it inside and out, readjusted clutch, replaced wipers, full environmental checks, full top down inspection. This was additional cost (£229) but worth it as it's the first major check it's had since I got it and it's due for yearly safety check (MOT) in July. All this done in <6 hours. Drop off morning, pick up afternoon. Service centre is only 10 mins by bus from my door as well.

Very happy.

Honestly I could probably do it for half of the cost myself but it'd take more than 6 hours of pissing around just trying to get the parts together and finding somewhere safe to jack it. Plus it still needs a proper inspection done. Plus I can't be arsed!

Getting things organized is hard. I dedicated 1 bin (and several small crafts type organizers for SMA stuff) to RF connections, cables, etc. Other bins for other things, but it's scary how quickly bins become catch alls when you get lazy and just want the clutter gone yesterday.

One thing's for sure, when I get moved and have proper benches, I'm going to get at least a couple of these for organizing RF plumbing and small parts.

Duck that noise. I can see a stack of Plano boxes; and if I had the money I'd TOTALLY be Sortimo's bitch. But no way in Hell I'm gonna buy a rollaway toolbox JUST for consumables. I gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE. 

I'm using Wham boxes (UK specific product) and 4.5x3.5" bags with chopped up amazon, CPC boxes and old lever-arch files as dividers:



They stack neatly and have absolutely no dead space which means they don't take a lot of room!


Old topic resurrected. Decided not to fish out for an LCR meter. The GDO is pretty damn good. Also I'm going to build the Jay_diddy_b ESR meter as mentioned on this forum over the next couple of days. Turns out, now I've got sorted, I actually have enough crap in stock to just build it 

[Specmaster]

Got to give my local citroen people their due. When you take the car in, they give it a full check over from top to bottom, send you an email with a link to a summary web page that has all the detail, photos, videos of the mechanic's findings (for example showing me brake disc thickness with calipers), use original parts only and get it unfucked in under 6 hours.

That's pretty impressive!  -  that would really increase my trust in a dealership, if they did that kind of stuff.   

These days, the cost of labour and parts are so high that bodging is no longer acceptable at all - it has to be 100% high quality through and through for consumers to pony up hundreds or even thousands to get stuff fixed that would not have cost that much in the past.  I can still recall paying 30 quid for entire exhaust systems for old Escorts etc...

Yeah, I get that same service from my local Skoda service agent (agent because they don't sell new cars) along with the video etc, the whole package. I too have have had tyres fitted (from Black Circle)

It's pretty good indeed. Couple of screenshots...





(ignore the quoted price - their service is fixed price. Front discs, brakes including fitting were 279).

I got the tyres done via blackcircles.com as they were cheaper and do it on your property while you wait.

Dealer is Robins and Day: https://www.robinsandday.co.uk/

I get the same deal from my local Skoda Service Garage and like you, I chose blackcircles and they were fitted by my local Robins and Day https://www.robinsandday.co.uk/peugeot-chelmsford and while I was impressed with their level of customer waiting area and service, I was less then impressed by blackcircle who were supposed to have told Robins and Day that I was going to wait while they fitted them but failed so it was about 3 hours waiting as they didn't have anyone free to fit them at the time. 

My Local Skoda service agent is very good, a small family firm and they make you very welcome you get the felling of being valued.

Edit:
I forgot to mention as well that if allow them enough time to plan it, I get a courtesy car as well while mine is in their workshops, or failing that, they will drop me back home again and then when mine is ready, come and collect me and take me to my car,  perfect.

[Specmaster]

Now to strip down the Pioneer A109, after cleaning the coke spillage of the PCB and replacing the fuse, it just blew the fuse upon powering up so now I need to go beyond a visual inspection and start checking for shorts.

[bd139]

34401A off the menu again today. The one with the missing fuse holder is at 240 now which is 20 more than I’d pay. Back to lurking for a bargain. 

[mnementh]

Duck that noise. I can see a stack of Plano boxes; and if I had the money I'd TOTALLY be Sortimo's bitch. But no way in Hell I'm gonna buy a rollaway toolbox JUST for consumables. I gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE. 

   I'm using Wham boxes (UK specific product) and 4.5x3.5" bags with chopped up amazon, CPC boxes and old lever-arch files as dividers:      They stack neatly and have absolutely no dead space which means they don't take a lot of room!
Old topic resurrected. Decided not to fish out for an LCR meter. The GDO is pretty damn good. Also I'm going to build the Jay_diddy_b ESR meter as mentioned on this forum over the next couple of days. Turns out, now I've got sorted, I actually have enough crap in stock to just build it 

The problem with that is not so much the tool itself, but rather standards. Most ESR meters are based on Bob Parker's design (Anatek "Blue" ESR Meter), and are roughly calibrated to match the curve used in his original tables from decades ago. As long as the device uses the same 1Khz frequency, the results can be adjusted in tables in the firmware to give valid, meaningful results compared to the same tables and to quality-manufactured ESR measurement devices made in the last 20 years or so.

The results you'll get from the 5-transistor ESR meter are only useful as a comparison against a KNOWN-GOOD capacitor of similar voltage, capacitance AND tan Δ-Q/ESR rating; you can't expect it to give you results that are matched against even the Parker ESR tables (for comparison with other folks' results, for example) or against the manufacturer's specs, which usually DON'T include ESR but rather Q and tan Δ as figures you can compare against a modern Cap Tester like the DE-5000. Even a well-stocked cupboard is unlikely to have an exact match for every common variant of even the most common values one is likely to run into every day.

THAT part is why I eventually wanted the DE-5000 or some equivalent; I wanted a meter that would give me results I can check against a datasheet to KNOW if a cap is anywhere near what it SHOULD be, not just against some "folklore" ESR table generated 20+ years ago, before the advent of MMLC and other extremely LOW-ESR / Low tan Δ-High Q capacitors.

The only problem I have with mine is that I've been using the Atlas ESR70+ for over a decade; it is MY OWN BAD HABITS that get in the way of me using the DE-5000 correctly and understanding the results in the proper context.

At least the $12 Atmega LCR meters are somewhat calibrated against Parker's ESR tables (Every one I've bought was pretty reasonably close, and within 20% of my Atlas ESR-70+); given the assache factor, I think they're exponentially a better value than homebrew.

You KNOW I'm the original "cheap bastahd". That 1/16 Scottish (always fighting with the "just generally a bastard" 1/16 Welsh ) REALLY shows his colors when it comes time to go shopping for multi-hundred-dollar tools. I spent a LOT of time researching value vs cost.

There is no doubt in my mind, especially given the fact that you can get the full kit with good quality Kelvin-probe tweezers for $96 ($71 for the bare instrument), that the DE-5000 is an even better value per dollar FOR THE ADVANCED USER than those cheap Atmega LCR testers.

I have similar clear plastic containers I use on my bench; over here they're marketed as shoe boxes. I've moved EVERYTHING to the transparent bins & shoe boxes, since labeling cardboard boxes simply doesn't work as well; you always wind up hunting SOMETHING you forgot to list, no matter how carefully you itemize.

Just stacked up on end, you can instantly get a "feel" for what's in each of the clear bins because you can see a small portion of actual contents. 

I think this is as good as we're going to get until boxes inventory themselves and post the contents on a touchscreen. 

mnem
 

[bd139]

I’m mostly interested in an output metric of “knackered”. If there was a box with a red led and legend “knackered” on it I’d buy it.

The 5 transistor one is good enough for a go / no go test basically and is essentially free as I’ve already got the bits.

[Neomys Sapiens]

@mnem:
It did not become totally clear from your post what your opinion on the Atlas ESR-70+ is - could you clarify?
I've operated their semiconductor tester for a time now and thought about replacing it with the newer one that also is able to output data/curves. And in that case, I thought about the ESR tester too.

[bd139]

For me it costs a lot to do bugger all so I didn’t buy one.

If the LCR45 did ESR I’d buy one but I’m not spending £85 to measure a single component parasitic property and nothing else. I probably test 10 capacitors a year. Most are just replace and forget.

[worsthorse]

Duck that noise. I can see a stack of Plano boxes; and if I had the money I'd TOTALLY be Sortimo's bitch. But no way in Hell I'm gonna buy a rollaway toolbox JUST for consumables. I gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE. 

   

Five hundred fifty bucks for a plastic toolbox?    I must be missing something.

The only problem I have with mine is that I've been using the Atlas ESR70+ for over a decade; it is MY OWN BAD HABITS that get in the way of me using the DE-5000 correctly and understanding the results in the proper context.

I want to hear more about these bad habits and such, especially as I dig into the innards of all these Tek boxes, filled with capacitors big and small.  I've got the DE-5000 but I am not sure I use it to best advantage. I've never thought of meters at this price/perf point as being good for much more than ballpark measurements...

[med6753]

I want to hear more about these bad habits and such, especially as I dig into the innards of all these Tek boxes, filled with capacitors big and small.  I've got the DE-5000 but I am not sure I use it to best advantage. I've never thought of meters at this price/perf point as being good for much more than ballpark measurements...

I'm with bd139 on this. I typically don't test. Just replace. Can't be bothered and chances are with the 30+ year old stuff I work on it's prudent to just do it.

Speaking of which. The 465B "parts" unit is proving it's meddle. I've had it running many hours and it just keeps chugging along. The only issue is the prior mentioned trace sharpness. Compared to my other 465B and 475A it looks like crap. If you didn't have another scope you probably really wouldn't notice it. But it's definitely as sharp as it should be and if you look carefully you can see tiny little spikes dancing around. So in light of that...

Went ahead and ordered a full set of replacement tantalum's for the vertical board and the main board. Going to forego the trigger board for now. Damn they are expensive but hopefully will fix the issue. If not I'll have to probe around the CRT circuit which can be a hazard to your health. 

So as of right now this 465B is on reprieve.           

[mnementh]

@mnem:
It did not become totally clear from your post what your opinion on the Atlas ESR-70+ is - could you clarify?
I've operated their semiconductor tester for a time now and thought about replacing it with the newer one that also is able to output data/curves. And in that case, I thought about the ESR tester too.

I started out with the Parker ESR meter when I was still working my own bench. It was a godsend, but pretty much useless on anything less than 10uF. Results were simply too variable.

The Atlas ESR70+ is a great tool, and I was one of the first in line to buy them on preorder. I got number 008. The quality of Peak Electronics' manufacturing is excellent; the tests it does it does well, and and it gives reliable results with very small variance on repetitive testing.

There is no such thing as the "Good/Bad" tester that bd is looking for; at least not anything that is appreciably better than just listening to your favorite beep continuity tester as you swap the leads around. The Atlas ESR70+ is about as close to THAT as you'll ever get.

Someone here posted a link to this article that clearly explains the reasons to move away from using ESR and towards using Q/tan Δ as a measure of capacitor health.  These terms are clearly quantifiable, and comparable against manufacturer's specs. And unlike the days when ESR testing was introduced, now we have affordable testers that can measure in these terms.

My interest in the DE-5000 is, as I said earlier, due to wanting modern gear that gives readings that SHOULD be comparable to a manufacturer's datasheet. Also, I found the Atlas did not give readings that SEEMED right with large arrays of MMLC caps; I've since found that the DE-5000 also seems to read lower than advertised, but not as out of whack as the Atlas. I believe this is because it shifts testing frequencies as is appropriate.

Single larger-value MMLC caps from 22-100uF they both seem a little low, but always within 20% of spec. I suspect this is a combination of the much steeper derating slope and ultra-low ESR of MMLC caps.

Bottom line is that now, the DE-5000 is a better value; it offers a full range of modern test parameters, has true Kelvin-circuit measuring on ALL connection types the Atlas doesn't, it does Ultra-low DCR as well ESR in Parallel or Series substitution modes and the full kit costs $10-20 less than the ESR70+.

If what you're asking is whether Peak Electronics is legit; yes absolutely. Their gear is well-made and their rep is well-earned. They took the Parker design and expanded its capacity tenfold, AND made it more accurate & reliable. 

mnem
*Kiddle time*

[tautech]

You can get Peak EEVblog discounts too:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/special-offer-to-eevblog-forum-members/

[mnementh]

Duck that noise. I can see a stack of Plano boxes; and if I had the money I'd TOTALLY be Sortimo's bitch. But no way in Hell I'm gonna buy a rollaway toolbox JUST for consumables. I gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE. 

Five hundred fifty bucks for a plastic toolbox?    I must be missing something.

The only problem I have with mine is that I've been using the Atlas ESR70+ for over a decade; it is MY OWN BAD HABITS that get in the way of me using the DE-5000 correctly and understanding the results in the proper context.

I want to hear more about these bad habits and such, especially as I dig into the innards of all these Tek boxes, filled with capacitors big and small.  I've got the DE-5000 but I am not sure I use it to best advantage. I've never thought of meters at this price/perf point as being good for much more than ballpark measurements...

The magic of Sortimo is its crazy modularity; you can make individual trays with any combination from 1/2" x 1/2" up to like 6"x 10" boxes. So you can have one tray with your favorite XYZ Meter, as well as individual divider boxes for spare probes A-F, spare battery G, and adapters H-V. Now multiply that by every tool "kit" you own, and every type of sortable component, fixture and fastener you work with.   Holy !!

Agreed on the cost... Also Holy !!  But this is another one of those cases of trading lots of money for better quality of life, trading money for time. Like buying into the Apple ecology. 


My "bad habits" lie in my "use-case thinking" where the DE-5000 is concerned; I keep falling back on thinking of it as a portable capacitance meter, like all my other meters that have this feature built-in. What I need to do... am TRYING to teach myself to do... is to think of it as what it REALLY IS: a handheld LCR Substitution Bridge with fully automated setup. When you realize this... truly grok in fullness... THEN it becomes a truly amazing piece of kit, especially at the sub-$100 price point. You can let it run in auto-LCR mode, or you can toggle between Cap Analyzer, Inductor Analyzer, Ultra-Low Resistance and ESR in Parallel or Series substitution modes.

These last two I'm STILL learning new ways to use; I've never had a device that does these modes so easily that it actually becomes a useful diag tool rather than the usual "Okay, I've tried testing all the easy ways, lets set up and test this way and do the math."

Cheers,

mnem
*Sghetti-fied*

[bd139]

If in doubt, just make something. I built the ESR meter mentioned earlier with crap I had lying around. Only on breadboard now - will do a manhattan board for it later when I'm totally happy. Would benefit from a 50uA meter but I only had a 100uA on hand. Will get a few at Kempton as they are useful and there's usually a metric ton of the things. Calibrated it roughly with 1 and 10 ohm 1% MF resistors and it appears to do the trick. Running frequency is 87KHz.

Shonky 50 year old Dubilier cap which was getting hot in circuit:



Brand new 47uF panasonic electrolytic:



Total cost £0 

Original link: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/5-transistor-esr-meter-design/

Edit: I am currently creatively knackering some old electrolytic capacitors so I have something to test. I just woke the kids up with one which I pushed a bit too far

Also I am really super happy with that HP power supply. Could be my favourite bit of gear now 

[bitseeker]

Someone here posted a link to this article that clearly explains the reasons to move away from using ESR and towards using Q/tan Δ as a measure of capacitor health.  These terms are clearly quantifiable, and comparable against manufacturer's specs. And unlike the days when ESR testing was introduced, now we have affordable testers that can measure in these terms.

Thanks. I hadn't seen his article before.

If in doubt, just make something. I built the ESR meter mentioned earlier with crap I had lying around. Only on breadboard now - will do a manhattan board for it later when I'm totally happy. Would benefit from a 50uA meter but I only had a 100uA on hand. Will get a few at Kempton as they are useful and there's usually a metric ton of the things. Calibrated it roughly with 1 and 10 ohm 1% MF resistors and it appears to do the trick. Running frequency is 87KHz.

Shonky 50 year old Dubilier cap which was getting hot in circuit:



Brand new 47uF panasonic electrolytic:



Total cost £0 

Original link: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/5-transistor-esr-meter-design/

Looks good. Now, it just needs a new meter scale. http://www.tonnesoftware.com/meter.html The free version does a single scale, which is fine for this device. The paid version does multiple scales for something like multiple ranges or a DMM.

Uh oh, the free version only does a linear scale. So, it might not work for your ESR meter. The full version would.

[bd139]

Gah I know that thing. I hated it so much, last time I did a meter face I wrote the damn thing in postscript by hand 

[tggzzz]

If in doubt, just make something. I built the ESR meter mentioned earlier with crap I had lying around.

I used a square wave generator with a 50ohm output and an oscilloscope. Adjust the period so you can see a nice triangular wave (i.e. the first part of an RC risetime) plus a step where the square wave changes polarity. Measure the height of that step and assume it is entirely due to the ESR, do a little simple arithmetic.

[bd139]

Yeah that's what I was doing before. Voltage divider with the source impedance and the ESR basically.

This however has a slightly less horrible user interface 

[bitseeker]

Gah I know that thing. I hated it so much, last time I did a meter face I wrote the damn thing in postscript by hand 

LOL! Yeah, I also write HTML with a plain text editor. I've hated most fancy tools for it.

I'd use a CAD program for making a meter scale, but for some a dedicated tool might be easier.

[mnementh]

3DP in bas-relief, then highlight with a Sharpie.   

mnem
*Thinking inside the box*