Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 15590837 times)

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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103800 on: September 30, 2021, 03:41:06 pm »
Back on the mini Tek 212. Troubleshooting this guy connected to the mains is putting your life in peril. There is 120VAC floating all over the place on this board. There are warning labels and they ain't kidding. So I put on the batteries instead. And the PSU is dead. And every once in a while I hear a snap. So....I suspect I gots some shorted tants. Submitted an order to Mouser.

And of course I'm finding that my circuit doesn't match the manual. And to make matters more complex the S/N tag is missing. Just a regular day in the park.  :-DD But we'll get it sorted eventually.

       
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103801 on: September 30, 2021, 03:42:04 pm »
Having watched EEs who believe themselves to be genius* programmers in action

For this the Internet coined the phrase pair:

Beware of the programmer with a screwdriver
Beware of the electrical engineer with a text editor


The only correct way to handle computer systems today is to look at them as a river. It might be trusted to be wet, muddy, full of eels and other more generic things, but it will never be identical to last time you fell in it.

EE's tend to forget this, and regard computer systems as "dependable". That is a major fault in their thinking, where they apply the sound logic of most circuitry up to microcontroller complexity -- that it will behave predictably and only fail in obvious ways. The modern conglomerate of hardware, $DEITY knows how many opaque layers of microcode, and an operating system that's designed for word processing and very much not for embeddity things is theoretically still a machine, but it has, by sheer complexity of numbers, grown so unpredictable that it needs to be treated differently.

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103802 on: September 30, 2021, 03:52:19 pm »
In OTHER News...   New season of FINAL SPACE!

David Tennant returns, and evidently we get another season of Claudia Black's sultry tones. Actually, you should scope out the cast in the link above. Evidently it was one of those "in thing" productions, Ron Perlman, Gina Torres, Keith David and and even Conan O'Brien have parts, as well as Tom Kenny in a uncharacteristically not-manic role.

Not sure how good it will be; they've been canceled due to the upcoming WarnerMedia merger, so this is the final Final Space... but still, looking forward to it. One of my favorite father-son time things.

mnem
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 03:56:13 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103803 on: September 30, 2021, 04:11:31 pm »
It costs nothing but a little time to try and set up your SSD correctly first.

It's a trade-off thing.

Yes, if you're lucky you can put the time into optimising the SSD (or whatever) and it will work. However, can you be sure that "boots and appears to work" means "works all the time" or does it mean "works, until you select the option/measurement that buggers it"? If the machine in question has got an "exercise everything properly" self-test then you're probably on a winner here. If it hasn't then there's the possibility that there's a ticking time bomb and it will fail because of something related to how the disk is set up when you select the deadly option. Because you do this three months later, not minutes after fiddling with the disk, it isn't quickly apparent that the fault is "should have done a 1:1 disk copy".

So it's more than a "little time" to optimise the SSD, it's a little time to optimise the SSD plus the time to run diagnostics for "fully working" - which may be short if you're luck and happen to have the right self diagnostics on board, or may be quite time consuming, perhaps even days of work for some instruments.

Faced with a choice from

  • Quickest: A 1:1 disk copy is almost always safe, but it may be sub-optimal performance-wise. If it appears to work 1st try you're almost overwhelmingly likely to have got it right.
  • Quick: An optimised disk setup is best, but may leave an undiagnosed problem waiting to bite you in the butt later.
  • Slow: An optimised disk setup is best, and extensive testing proves it to work.

There's a trade-off to be made. You're advocating 2 (and I think omitting the potential time bomb effect in your advocacy), other are advocating 1. I'm advocating no particular choice, but am advocating for an informed choice.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:13:58 pm by Cerebus »
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103804 on: September 30, 2021, 04:22:04 pm »
Sure, but that is exactly the spirit of TEA. This is the same as when we mod a "wrong" OXCO into a counter, or "hack" our cheap scopes (and yes, sometimes there is hardware hacking and software hacking) into something better, or some frankenmeter made of bits of different units, which may or may not be the same model.

That is the main purpose of this thread, and in fact the original post... to explore the ways you can make your old TE work in new ways, or keep it alive with newer parts.

Testing with the new setup is part of that.

The concerns I raised aboot having the SSD optimized and the potential for it to run so slowly as to be unusable are also part of making an informed decision. I've experienced the latter state personally more than once.

mnem
 :popcorn:
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:29:21 pm by mnementh »
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Offline duckduck

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103805 on: September 30, 2021, 04:36:24 pm »
My microphone multicable project is progressing slowly.

Beauty!

Which reminds me I need to buy some XLR cable and some neutrik XLR female male to make my own audio cable,
any suggestion on digikey or mouser?

Yes XLR is sexy....

You're in the USA now, right? I found that Amazon had the best price on (certain) Neutrik connectors. Worth a check. Also, you might be surprised how cheap it is to have custom audio cables made for you (~USD5 per cable assembly for labor):

https://www.performanceaudio.com/accessories/cables-connectors/custom-cables/custom-audio-cables.html
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:37:56 pm by duckduck »
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103806 on: September 30, 2021, 04:42:42 pm »
Having watched EEs who believe themselves to be genius* programmers in action

For this the Internet coined the phrase pair:

Beware of the programmer with a screwdriver
Beware of the electrical engineer with a text editor


The only correct way to handle computer systems today is to look at them as a river. It might be trusted to be wet, muddy, full of eels and other more generic things, but it will never be identical to last time you fell in it.

EE's tend to forget this, and regard computer systems as "dependable". That is a major fault in their thinking, where they apply the sound logic of most circuitry up to microcontroller complexity -- that it will behave predictably and only fail in obvious ways. The modern conglomerate of hardware, $DEITY knows how many opaque layers of microcode, and an operating system that's designed for word processing and very much not for embeddity things is theoretically still a machine, but it has, by sheer complexity of numbers, grown so unpredictable that it needs to be treated differently.

The latter may well be true, but the perspective I've seen it from is the one where almost all EEs writing code are self-taught, or are taught by other self taught EEs. If you're dragged up via the programming route there are things that you are explicitly taught that are more than the things you will self-discover by writing code to get a particular job done. EEs tend to learn by trying to write code to get a particular job done - jumping from "knows nothing" to "has a finished working product". Taught programmers learn in little steps with critiques of increasingly more complex programming tasks given to them as feedback along the way by more experienced and better qualified programmers. If the programmer being taught makes one of the many classic errors they will get told "Don't ever do it that way, and here is why.".

"That way" probably works, for some value of "works", but is undesirable for any number of reasons - some common ones being:

  • computational complexity (doesn't scale to 10x, 100x or 10,000,000x as much input data),
  • numerical analysis (tiny arithmetic errors accumulate to form significant, even massive, errors).
  • maintainability (comprehension) - Will someone, including the original author, be able to understand this code in the future?
  • maintainability (correctness) - Can you update this code without breaking it. Classic example being the "magic numbers" coding style I referred to earlier.


If someone self-teaches and gets a working program out at the end of the day, it creates a positive feedback loop. It worked, therefore it must be correct. Compare to the negative feedback loop one gets if taught: "Yes, this works now but is suboptimal becuase X, or will break in future because Y".

This applies to any self-taught programmer, but is often worse with EEs because (1) there are a lot who need to produce code without formal training, (2) EEs like to tell themselves that they passed "one of the toughest degree courses" and as a consequence can overestimate their abilities in other disciplines especially ones that appear related like computer programming (i.e. Highly fertile ground for the Dunning-Kruger effect.).
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:45:20 pm by Cerebus »
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103807 on: September 30, 2021, 05:06:04 pm »
I got in on that evilbay sale of the Fluke 27/AN meters; listed at $150, offered $130 and it was accepted, so wound up getting it for about $150 after shipping and paying the .gov's cut.  It arrived today.  Pretty sure it's brand spankin' new old stock - don't think it was ever out of the box.  It includes the 6 kV and 40 kV probes, the RF probe, an operator's manual and a service manual complete with schematics and parts list.


Interesting! Some notes:

  • You, as I, seem to miss the standard test leads.
  • But the slip-on croc clips for TL71 (or similar) leads are in the 85RF bag. Just as for me.
  • I did not get any service manual.
  • Mine is full of USMC calibration stickers and has a tag on the case handle also indicating a calibration made back in 2011. This -- from your pics -- seems to be missing for you.

Based on these differences and similarities I have two guesses:

  • Yours was not opened while in Govt. possession
  • Someone went through all the meter cases and removed the test leads to sell separately.

LOL - I was so mesmerized by "Ooooh, shiny new old meter with multiple probes!!!!" that I didn't even notice that there were no standard test leads.   :palm: :palm:

There's a sticker on the front edge of the case that's not visible in the photo, but it appears to be nothing more than an asset/model bar code - no mention of calibration.  Mine shipped to me in its original Fluke cardboard box, which was at some point opened and re-sealed (likely when the test leads were pilfered).  Guess I should add test leads to my battery shopping list, huh?

Regardless, I'm happy with it, and from the dates I'm seeing on the carton, it appears to be mid 1999 vintage.  Nice to have something that old that doesn't need twenty years worth of crud to be scraped off of it.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103808 on: September 30, 2021, 05:14:38 pm »
I got in on that evilbay sale of the Fluke 27/AN meters; listed at $150, offered $130 and it was accepted, so wound up getting it for about $150 after shipping and paying the .gov's cut.  It arrived today.  Pretty sure it's brand spankin' new old stock - don't think it was ever out of the box.  It includes the 6 kV and 40 kV probes, the RF probe, an operator's manual and a service manual complete with schematics and parts list.


Interesting! Some notes:

  • You, as I, seem to miss the standard test leads.
  • But the slip-on croc clips for TL71 (or similar) leads are in the 85RF bag. Just as for me.
  • I did not get any service manual.
  • Mine is full of USMC calibration stickers and has a tag on the case handle also indicating a calibration made back in 2011. This -- from your pics -- seems to be missing for you.

Based on these differences and similarities I have two guesses:

  • Yours was not opened while in Govt. possession
  • Someone went through all the meter cases and removed the test leads to sell separately.

LOL - I was so mesmerized by "Ooooh, shiny new old meter with multiple probes!!!!" that I didn't even notice that there were no standard test leads.   :palm: :palm:

There's a sticker on the front edge of the case that's not visible in the photo, but it appears to be nothing more than an asset/model bar code - no mention of calibration.  Mine shipped to me in its original Fluke cardboard box, which was at some point opened and re-sealed (likely when the test leads were pilfered).  Guess I should add test leads to my battery shopping list, huh?

Regardless, I'm happy with it, and from the dates I'm seeing on the carton, it appears to be mid 1999 vintage.  Nice to have something that old that doesn't need twenty years worth of crud to be scraped off of it.

-Pat

Mine doesn't have any normal probes with it either (judging by the pics; it's still 2 or 3 weeks away from delivery yet), but I really don't care. I have plenty of good quality leads and probes already, but no HV ones, which will be very useful and encourage me to tinker with the 2.5kV EP-PSU.

Also, as Cubdriver said, it'll be nice to have a vintage item minus the decades of crud/wear/abuse.
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103809 on: September 30, 2021, 05:16:27 pm »
This applies to any self-taught programmer, but is often worse with EEs because (1) there are a lot who need to produce code without formal training, (2) EEs like to tell themselves that they passed "one of the toughest degree courses" and as a consequence can overestimate their abilities in other disciplines especially ones that appear related like computer programming (i.e. Highly fertile ground for the Dunning-Kruger effect.).

I am very self-taught. But I've been around so many pessimistic Real Programmers (main lesson learnt: "I haven't a clue") that some of it has rubbed off. 20 years of this probably put me more in the "beware of the programmer" camp than the opposite.

I wholly agree with your more thorough description of the phenomenon. Today, the fresh EE probably also has done some programming as part of their education so the waters might be a tad muddier, but I still believe with you that programming is a complementary activity for most hardware people. OTOH,  I certainly had excellent students from the EE dept on the courses I taught at University, and that was network protocols and applications stuff.  The course was not obligatory, so participants were slightly more motivated, though.

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103810 on: September 30, 2021, 05:25:32 pm »

LOL - I was so mesmerized by "Ooooh, shiny new old meter with multiple probes!!!!" that I didn't even notice that there were no standard test leads.   :palm: :palm:

There's a sticker on the front edge of the case that's not visible in the photo, but it appears to be nothing more than an asset/model bar code - no mention of calibration.  Mine shipped to me in its original Fluke cardboard box, which was at some point opened and re-sealed (likely when the test leads were pilfered).  Guess I should add test leads to my battery shopping list, huh?

Regardless, I'm happy with it, and from the dates I'm seeing on the carton, it appears to be mid 1999 vintage.  Nice to have something that old that doesn't need twenty years worth of crud to be scraped off of it.

-Pat

Yes, mine shipped in the same style original box. I was given a Probemaster kit by my wife, the Enabler, Christmas -19. I probably should get something similar for this; I am a bit short on probes TBH.

And, yes, the condition is simply fantastic.

Offline Zucca

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103811 on: September 30, 2021, 06:03:39 pm »
You're in the USA now, right? I found that Amazon had the best price on (certain) Neutrik connectors. Worth a check. Also, you might be surprised how cheap it is to have custom audio cables made for you (~USD5 per cable assembly for labor):

https://www.performanceaudio.com/accessories/cables-connectors/custom-cables/custom-audio-cables.html

Yes thanks, let me know if you need help with the 3DP! You should get one!
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Offline 25 CPS

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103812 on: September 30, 2021, 06:54:23 pm »
Out and about doing errands this morning and I passed by this and saw a bit of fall colour starting.  I wasn’t in a rush so I parked, walked a bit of the trail, and took some pictures looking both directions from the road bridge over top:







Ruler straight until it gets to that beautifully executed curve.  Naturally formed rivers don't look like this, so what is it?  How does it pertain to test equipment?

Here's where it ultimately ends up (these are pictures from last year below):





That's the Ontario Hydro canal that was built a bit over 100 years ago to bring water from above Niagara Falls down to the Beck I hydro station.  Niagara Falls power is fairly local here so whenever I start up any of the equipment in the workshop, this is one of the places that picks up a little bit of the load.  It's hard to believe from the view from the top when I took those pictures this morning, that was water equivalent to 241 MW of electricity flowing through the canal:



And I saw some other power on my way back home:



I don't know what the total output there was but Canadian Pacific was well into the eighth notch and moving it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 07:06:19 pm by 25 CPS »
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103813 on: September 30, 2021, 07:24:34 pm »
Does anyone have any recommendations for decent quality matrix board, before I buy some WR Rademacher ones from Rapid?
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103814 on: September 30, 2021, 07:29:14 pm »
Back on the mini Tek 212. Troubleshooting this guy connected to the mains is putting your life in peril. There is 120VAC floating all over the place on this board. There are warning labels and they ain't kidding. So I put on the batteries instead. And the PSU is dead. And every once in a while I hear a snap. So....I suspect I gots some shorted tants. Submitted an order to Mouser.

And of course I'm finding that my circuit doesn't match the manual. And to make matters more complex the S/N tag is missing. Just a regular day in the park.  :-DD But we'll get it sorted eventually.

     
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Online BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103815 on: September 30, 2021, 07:37:07 pm »
Does anyone have any recommendations for decent quality matrix board, before I buy some WR Rademacher ones from Rapid?

Rademacher is top quality.  :-+
But I'm using since years the ones from Roth Elektronik. Probably I got them cheap and easy from reichelt.
Not sure, if reichelt is delivering to the UK, I've found them at RS:

Roth Elektronik matrix boards at RS
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Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103816 on: September 30, 2021, 07:43:45 pm »
+1 for Roth protoboards
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103817 on: September 30, 2021, 07:58:27 pm »
Does anyone have any recommendations for decent quality matrix board, before I buy some WR Rademacher ones from Rapid?

My preference is for a matrix on one side,  solid ground plane on the other, and holes that aren't plated through. That gives you the ability to make short gnd connection where you want them.
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103818 on: September 30, 2021, 08:02:18 pm »
Does anyone have any recommendations for decent quality matrix board, before I buy some WR Rademacher ones from Rapid?

      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074X2GDH2/

Does it need to be bigger than the ones offered here, and can you get them? These are crazy good quality for the price. As cheap as the last kit of paxolin crapness I got from bang-em-good as a add-on, but FR4 and fully plated vias. The extra non-perf pads on the ends are also a very nice touch; I like them for aggregating wires and such.

mnem
 :-+
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 08:04:06 pm by mnementh »
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Offline ch_scr

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103819 on: September 30, 2021, 09:02:47 pm »
Riddle me this:
What might this strange layout, that looks like it has some things too many and others not enough, be?
Hint: Not all holes will be plated and there will be a ground plane below.
Ultra bonus points: (WIN AS MUCH WASHING MACHINES AS YOU CAN CATCH!)
What crazy construction revelation befell me?
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103820 on: September 30, 2021, 09:17:57 pm »
At least no-one posted any pics of 1N4148's a couple of pages ago...

Here's some ebay tat for your amusement/derision. Those Tek 465/475/485's went cheap I thought.

Snip...

Potential easy fix, or a deadasaurus? At least the display digits are all bright...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304161927613


Snip...

Serious probulator. You know it means business when it has a pistol grip.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255139878988




I'm fairly certain the Agilent DMM is the one from this thread where the RAM had died (location & scratches match), has the Chinesium RAM died too.  :-DD
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1365376

The AVO probe is for one of the HV flash/insulation testers, we have one at work in very good condition from one of the closed down departments, unfortunately they left the probes behind when salvaging equipment  :palm:, that area is now a "cheap & nasty" housing estate.

David
 
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Offline ch_scr

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103821 on: September 30, 2021, 09:28:27 pm »
[...]
I'm fairly certain the Agilent DMM is the one from this thread where the RAM had died (location & scratches match), has the Chinesium RAM died too.  :-DD
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1365376
[...]
David
Took me a while but that desk and the piece of "wood" below the dmm look just too similar  :-DD
Good catch!  :-+
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103822 on: September 30, 2021, 09:31:29 pm »
Riddle me this:
What might this strange layout, that looks like it has some things too many and others not enough, be?
Hint: Not all holes will be plated and there will be a ground plane below.
Ultra bonus points: (WIN AS MUCH WASHING MACHINES AS YOU CAN CATCH!)
What crazy construction revelation befell me?
Is it a distributed amplifier?
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103823 on: September 30, 2021, 09:35:09 pm »
Mine doesn't have any normal probes with it either (judging by the pics; it's still 2 or 3 weeks away from delivery yet), but I really don't care. I have plenty of good quality leads and probes already, but no HV ones, which will be very useful and encourage me to tinker with the 2.5kV EP-PSU.

Also, as Cubdriver said, it'll be nice to have a vintage item minus the decades of crud/wear/abuse.


Ummmmmmm...

mnem
I mean really... do any of us really need encouragement to do that...? :-DD
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #103824 on: September 30, 2021, 09:43:02 pm »
For those in the golden horseshoe/GTA, there's an HP 3580A listed for sale in Brampton for $525:



https://www.kijiji.ca/v-general-electronics/mississauga-peel-region/hp-spectrum-analyzer/1587504249

Picture from the listing.  The seller claims it's working but it isn't shown powered up and the frequency setting that was left on it is out of range at 99 KHz and the price could probably be negotiated down because of that broken knob.

I've already got one of these so I'm not going after this one.
 


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