In the EU most car manufacturers HAVE TO canibalise their ICE sales in favour of BEVs to make sure they meet average CO2 emission limits. Except for Toyota; they sell enough hybrids (*) already not to need BEVs at all in order to meet average CO2 emission limits. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out BEVs from European manufacturers are sold at a very low profit margin (or no profit at all) just to avoid paying the fines.
* One interesting fact is that Toyota doesn't have any diesel passenger cars in their line-up on their Dutch website. Other manufacturers like Volkswagen, Peugot, Citroen and Ford still offer diesel engines.Then the 2030s ICE bans, are they reasonable or harmful to the consumer?
If I look at my own situation (which is not special at all) a BEV is going to cost nearly double the money to 'fuel' compared to a Prius even with the highest fuel prices in the world! People won't accept that; keep in mind that fueling a car is the majority of the running costs per km. A car on hydrogen (only a little bit more expensive to fuel compared to a Prius) would be way cheaper for me compared to a BEV.
If I look at my own situation (which is not special at all) a BEV is going to cost nearly double the money to 'fuel' compared to a Prius even with the highest fuel prices in the world! People won't accept that; keep in mind that fueling a car is the majority of the running costs per km. A car on hydrogen (only a little bit more expensive to fuel compared to a Prius) would be way cheaper for me compared to a BEV.
If I look at my own situation (which is not special at all) a BEV is going to cost nearly double the money to 'fuel' compared to a Prius even with the highest fuel prices in the world! People won't accept that; keep in mind that fueling a car is the majority of the running costs per km. A car on hydrogen (only a little bit more expensive to fuel compared to a Prius) would be way cheaper for me compared to a BEV.I am also very interested. It's quite hard to get numbers on things like this outside of living in the country.
With an average price of 65 eurocents per kWh (mixed low cost / fast public charging) that results in 14.5 cents per km.
With an average price of 65 eurocents per kWh (mixed low cost / fast public charging) that results in 14.5 cents per km.
I would think it would make more sense to try and do something about that number rather than adopt hydrogen as a fuel. How widespread is the situation that results in a 0.65 EUR/kW price for electricity?
At this moment none of the charging operators make a profit so chances are these prices go up.
More likely the chargers go away or are left to rot.
That's a widespread problem and I don't think you can ever make money with a standalone business selling electricity by the kWh at charging stations--the overhead is just too high, even if the space is provided at no cost. You've discussed this issue before regarding your urban area, but what I wanted to know is what proportion of the NL population would be in this situation where it is not possible to charge your car in your own parking space with a charger you own---even a wall-socket model? And for those that do, how much is electricity per kWh at night?
With an average price of 65 eurocents per kWh (mixed low cost / fast public charging) that results in 14.5 cents per km.
I would think it would make more sense to try and do something about that number rather than adopt hydrogen as a fuel. How widespread is the situation that results in a 0.65 EUR/kW price for electricity?
At this moment none of the charging operators make a profit so chances are these prices go up.
More likely the chargers go away or are left to rot.
That's a widespread problem and I don't think you can ever make money with a standalone business selling electricity by the kWh at charging stations--the overhead is just too high, even if the space is provided at no cost. You've discussed this issue before regarding your urban area, but what I wanted to know is what proportion of the NL population would be in this situation where it is not possible to charge your car in your own parking space with a charger you own---even a wall-socket model? And for those that do, how much is electricity per kWh at night?
With an average price of 65 eurocents per kWh (mixed low cost / fast public charging) that results in 14.5 cents per km.Holy smokes! That's nearly 10 times what I pay for electricity!
If I was paying that much, I'd have bought the largest solar array I could fit on my house years ago. Even running a gasoline powered generator doesn't cost that much per kWh here.
On average 70% of the households in the NL has to rely on public charging.
On average 70% of the households in the NL has to rely on public charging.And I assume that's due to people generally not having off-street parking available to them?
The chargers don't have to make a profit directly,.
I sure am glad it isn't like that here. I absolutely hate parking on the street, and I wish they would abolish street parking in places like the old residential parts of Seattle where you get cars parked down both sides of a narrow street with barely enough space for a car to drive through in one direction. All residential structures should be mandated to have sufficient parking for each tenant to have at least one parking spot. Look at cars in those areas and they're always all banged up from people bumping into them trying to park.
In recent years they've been building apartment buildings with not nearly enough parking in a misguided effort to discourage car ownership but all it does is cause people to clog the streets with parked cars. People want to drive private cars, they've made that very very clear and it is futile to wage war against that.
Parallel parking usually isn't that problematic; it is the parking garages where cars are parked next to eachother where most of the damage happens. I still got a dent to fix in my car from a visit to Paris last December. Speaking of the French: they have this odd behaviour to push cars in front and/or in the back of the car in order to make space for parallel parking. It doesn't go with a lot of violence but they do give the bumpers some practise. It is quite interesting to watch it happen.
They do for a standalone business. And the 'free' chargers offered as perks don't really work either because you can't rely on them being available--I've found they usually aren't there when I need them. The only model that I think works is restricted access (home/workplace) charging without user billing or other things that drive up costs, supplemented by on-the-road DCFS at a significantly higher cost. And even then I think the economics don't work for the paid charging systems at any sane price.
Parallel parking usually isn't that problematic; it is the parking garages where cars are parked next to eachother where most of the damage happens. I still got a dent to fix in my car from a visit to Paris last December. Speaking of the French: they have this odd behaviour to push cars in front and/or in the back of the car in order to make space for parallel parking. It doesn't go with a lot of violence but they do give the bumpers some practise. It is quite interesting to watch it happen.
I understand cities wanting to reduce pollution and the hassle of cars moving in the city by providing public transportation. But people still want to have their own car and park it whatever they want and leave when they want, without having to be tie up to schedules of the transportation or feeling like a sardine inside a can during rush hours. I see that from living in Shenzhen, and how I miss my car and the freedom of movement it provides me. Transportation here is good, heck 100x better than in Lisbon, I can really move anywhere without needing a car, all transportation is electric (bus, metro and taxis, all are EVs. Even the trash trucks. Dump construction trucks too are starting to turn into EVs) but still a car is a car. My own space, not having to worry about the guy on the side taking too much space on the bench, or the sweaty one in front of me with a intense sweat scent or even the other one who talks to loud or is watching a video on bilibili with the speakers on when the rules strictly ask him not to do it.
And that's a mentality a lot of people share. Even the prospect of a future with self driving cars is something I don't desire. I love to drive, and even here when someone of the family don't want to I'm always the first one to say I will. My wife hates it, if there is a chance to drive or not drive, 99% of the time she chooses not driving.
Frankly I think fully autonomous cars a decade or more away and I don't think a system like Tesla is using that relies completely on cameras is ever going to be adequate. They can train it for decades and there will still be edge cases it can't deal with that will happen to somebody somewhere often enough that the system is not practical. I've said this before, but an automated system that requires a human to be ready to take over at any time is fundamentally flawed. There is nothing more boring than supervising an automated system that doesn't require you to do anything 99% of the time. People will zone out, nap, play with their phone, stare aimlessly out the side window, etc. It is totally unrealistic to expect them to be ready to take over the moment something goes wrong.
If I look at my own situation (which is not special at all) a BEV is going to cost nearly double the money to 'fuel' compared to a Prius even with the highest fuel prices in the world! People won't accept that; keep in mind that fueling a car is the majority of the running costs per km. A car on hydrogen (only a little bit more expensive to fuel compared to a Prius) would be way cheaper for me compared to a BEV.Can you share your math for that? I'm interested to know why it that way for you. Seems odd.
Frankly I think fully autonomous cars a decade or more away and I don't think a system like Tesla is using that relies completely on cameras is ever going to be adequate. They can train it for decades and there will still be edge cases it can't deal with that will happen to somebody somewhere often enough that the system is not practical. I've said this before, but an automated system that requires a human to be ready to take over at any time is fundamentally flawed. There is nothing more boring than supervising an automated system that doesn't require you to do anything 99% of the time. People will zone out, nap, play with their phone, stare aimlessly out the side window, etc. It is totally unrealistic to expect them to be ready to take over the moment something goes wrong.
Yep, this is inevitable.
no ego
If I look at my own situation (which is not special at all) a BEV is going to cost nearly double the money to 'fuel' compared to a Prius even with the highest fuel prices in the world! People won't accept that; keep in mind that fueling a car is the majority of the running costs per km. A car on hydrogen (only a little bit more expensive to fuel compared to a Prius) would be way cheaper for me compared to a BEV.Can you share your math for that? I'm interested to know why it that way for you. Seems odd.
It's odd because he is talking about charging at convenient (and very expensive) fast charging stations.
The HUGE benefit for EV's comes when you can charge it at home or work (or have access to realistic pricing charge stations). If you are 100% reliant upon expensive public station then you are screwed and you wouldn't buy an EV in that case.
Frankly I think fully autonomous cars a decade or more away and I don't think a system like Tesla is using that relies completely on cameras is ever going to be adequate. They can train it for decades and there will still be edge cases it can't deal with that will happen to somebody somewhere often enough that the system is not practical. I've said this before, but an automated system that requires a human to be ready to take over at any time is fundamentally flawed. There is nothing more boring than supervising an automated system that doesn't require you to do anything 99% of the time. People will zone out, nap, play with their phone, stare aimlessly out the side window, etc. It is totally unrealistic to expect them to be ready to take over the moment something goes wrong.
Yep, this is inevitable.