Tariffs

[vad]

… speculative theories include the theory of cosmic inflation. And speaking of “inflation”, I can circle back to this thread’s topic: tariffs and monetary inflation that starts to rise in the US  due to it.

[floobydust]

Trump just announced 100% tariffs on semi's  This has to be beyond brutal for American manufacturers. It takes YEARS to plan and build fabs. Oh they cost a bit too.
I know politicians are stupid and corrupt, but this is a pipe dream to bring home semi fab...

“We’ll be putting a tariff, approximately 100%, on chips and semiconductors,” Trump said at an Oval Office event with Apple CEO Tim Cook, who arrived to announce plans for $600 billion in new investments in the US.
"Trump said he would exempt companies that have plans to transition their manufacturing to the US — a hint that the world’s largest chip manufacturer, Taiwan’s TSMC, which is building massive manufacturing plants in Arizona, would be spared."
“If you’re building in the United States of America, there’s no charge, even though you’re building and you’re not producing yet in terms of the big numbers of jobs and all of the things that you’re building. If you’re building there will be no charge,” Trump said.
“So 100% tariff on all chips and semiconductors coming into the United States. But if you’ve made a commitment to build, or if you’re in the process of building, as many are, there is no tariff.”

[Monkeh]

“So 100% tariff on all chips and semiconductors coming into the United States. But if you’ve made a commitment to build, or if you’re in the process of building, as many are, there is no tariff.”

Translation: Only giant monopolistic businesses which can afford to buy him the occasional golf course are welcome.

[vad]

“So 100% tariff on all chips and semiconductors coming into the United States. But if you’ve made a commitment to build, or if you’re in the process of building, as many are, there is no tariff.”

Translation: Only giant monopolistic businesses which can afford to buy him the occasional golf course are welcome.

The S&P 500 and NASDAQ rose during the day and continued surging after hours. I guess Wall Street has given up paying attention to tariff announcements - tonight he introduced something he might TACO from by noon tomorrow.

[floobydust]

“So 100% tariff on all chips and semiconductors coming into the United States. But if you’ve made a commitment to build, or if you’re in the process of building, as many are, there is no tariff.”

Translation: Only giant monopolistic businesses which can afford to buy him the occasional golf course are welcome.

As he waves his magic golf club, oops magic wand, will tariffs make America great in a few months?
And just where are golf balls "manufactured"? Hint: not the USA, layers and bits are from Asia, there are claims it's all American but Thailand seems to be Titalist's main plant.

The fundamental problem is corporations have no duty to their nation - their only concern is profit to the detriment of their host country. Using tariffs as motivation, kinda skeptical it's going to work before causing a recession- but people are saying 'haha it ain't happening'. Wall Street keeps hitting record highs.
There needs to be a fix of the legal rights and role of government in corporate activity.
china's nationalism is unparalleled, russia I'm not sure they didn't seem to grow local manufacturing.


Recently, Ex-ASML employee busted for stealing and selling corporate secrets, technical drawings to a Russian buyer.
USA would also like to make to make chips. I wonder how much it would cost to buy the plans and make EUV lithography machines. ASML has an order backlog of more than $38 billion including more than 600 DUV scanners and more than 100 EUV lithography machines. Gonna be a long time before chips are rollin' out of the USA. Sigh.

[Cyclotron]

I'm as surprised as anyone how well the tariffs or threats of them have worked.

Tariffs are an interesting "Fair Tax" method to. Basically a consumption tax. If you don't buy you don't pay. While the US is making news about our tariffs nowhere is there discussions of other countries tariffs and anti-trade taxes. Similar in many ways to VATs but not as universal.

Of course the US and its leadership shouldn't try to create a trade system that is more in favor of the US. Or maybe they should. Obviously both sides of the aisle in the US seem to have significant agreement as the prior tariffs were almost wholly left in tact during the flip-flop of power.

I don't personally care for the sitting president but he has made some good choices.  I didn't care for the previous one and he made some good choices. They both made some bad ones. Obama started a cascade of "my way or the highway" type swings that persist to this day when he said "Elections have consequences".  He wasn't interested in negotiating or coming to a consensus.  Now each swing sees the same.

Generally the population has become more polarized and its evident in everything. No one's team can be wrong. Just like in the cults of history, the followers can see no wrong in the leaders. Blind loyalty is rewarded by authoritarianism by the leaders of that both teams. The misinformation is vast and intentional.

[Cyclotron]

Gonna be a long time before chips are rollin' out of the USA. Sigh.

https://www.semiconductors.org/ecosystem/

Per what I understand the intentions are to increase fabrication in the US not bring it back. I think it is a good thing to work towards.

During the initial COVID 19 pandemic the US as well as most countries lost access to quality N95 masks.  That's because the manufacturing of them were all in China and China banned export. I worked for a time at a medical device manufacturer.

The FDA contacted a lot of medical equipment manufacturers like us and asked if we could manufacture these masks. We developed, qualified and certified a line of N95 masks with the FDA, all cost burden was on the company.  Even had some from the president's administration promising that long term the government would source these masks from US manufacturing facilitates just so the same issue didn't reoccur. 

Once China released their ban we couldn't compete with the price of the imports with labor treated as they are and cost so low in China. So, we contacted the same government folks that told us that they wanted to maintain this capability in the US. By then, no one cared and the product lines were shut down.

[Adrian_Taylor333]

Trump's tarrifs - all you need to know:

[tszaboo]

I'm as surprised as anyone how well the tariffs or threats of them have worked.

Tariffs are an interesting "Fair Tax" method to. Basically a consumption tax. If you don't buy you don't pay.

Yes, you are making the same point as I was saying.
The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods, because the US is large enough to make all the essential goods domestically. People with disposable income are affected more. IMHO much more preferred method than taxing the hell out of everyone, and than passing it in a lump sum to your cronies, like it was happening just half a year ago.

[PlainName]

“So 100% tariff on all chips and semiconductors coming into the United States. But if you’ve made a commitment to build, or if you’re in the process of building, as many are, there is no tariff.”

Translation: Only giant monopolistic businesses which can afford to buy him the occasional golf course are welcome.

The S&P 500 and NASDAQ rose during the day and continued surging after hours. I guess Wall Street has given up paying attention to tariff announcements - tonight he introduced something he might TACO from by noon tomorrow.

I think this will stick. Note that there won't be sudden dearth of semis because companies like ASML and Apple who are going to build chip plants in the US will have zero tariffs, so that's actually better for them than the status quo. Doesn't matter that it will take 2 decades to get a plant going: if they've said they will do it and at least kind of sort of gone through the motions the tariff will be zero wherever they're currently being made.

This is possibly a workable way for the US to get fabs on home soil. Haven't see the charts yet  but I imagine the markets are in favour today (but since I am not rich I wouldn't be surprised to be corrected).

[tautech]

I'm as surprised as anyone how well the tariffs or threats of them have worked.

Tariffs are an interesting "Fair Tax" method to. Basically a consumption tax. If you don't buy you don't pay. While the US is making news about our tariffs nowhere is there discussions of other countries tariffs and anti-trade taxes. Similar in many ways to VATs but not as universal.

Of course the US and its leadership shouldn't try to create a trade system that is more in favor of the US. Or maybe they should. Obviously both sides of the aisle in the US seem to have significant agreement as the prior tariffs were almost wholly left in tact during the flip-flop of power.

I beg to differ.

Tariffs have historically been placed on imported goods to protect local production and without them it is little wonder that production that can be has been shifted offshore has and now is a stain on previous Gubbermints where Wall St achievements mean more than local jobs.

Still, tariffs distort the marketplace and protect it from the reality that other countries can do things better/cheaper and more efficiently but the skill is in recognising what you do well and exploit it to the max for for the good of your people.

A bull in a China shop has no hope of displaying any skill other than wrecking everything........

[Zero999]

I'm as surprised as anyone how well the tariffs or threats of them have worked.

Tariffs are an interesting "Fair Tax" method to. Basically a consumption tax. If you don't buy you don't pay.

Yes, you are making the same point as I was saying.
The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods, because the US is large enough to make all the essential goods domestically. People with disposable income are affected more. IMHO much more preferred method than taxing the hell out of everyone, and than passing it in a lump sum to your cronies, like it was happening just half a year ago.

That's pretty much what I've said, with the caveat that tariffs might affect some essential produce, i.e. fruit and rice, and will have an indirect effect on producing them i.e. imported components for farm and food processing equipment.

[aeg]

Note that there won't be sudden dearth of semis because companies like ASML and Apple who are going to build chip plants in the US will have zero tariffs, so that's actually better for them than the status quo.

neither asml nor apple will ever build a chip plant, in the us or anywhere else

[Monkeh]

The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods

And if the tariffs were remotely that selective, perhaps you'd have a point.. but they're not, and critical goods and supplies are imported because they're not made in the US.

You may as well be making the oft-repeated claim that other countries pay the tariffs for all the truth in your posts. This isn't (un)Truth Social.

[Zero999]

The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods

And if the tariffs were remotely that selective, perhaps you'd have a point.. but they're not, and critical goods and supplies are imported because they're not made in the US.

You may as well be making the oft-repeated claim that other countries pay the tariffs for all the truth in your posts. This isn't (un)Truth Social.

What do you mean by essential? We have VAT in the UK, which is supposed to only be applied to luxury items, but in reality affects essentials too.

Whilst tariffs are can be perfectly legitimate way of raising tax, there are genuine issues with the way they've been implemented by the current US administration.

[Monkeh]

The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods

And if the tariffs were remotely that selective, perhaps you'd have a point.. but they're not, and critical goods and supplies are imported because they're not made in the US.

You may as well be making the oft-repeated claim that other countries pay the tariffs for all the truth in your posts. This isn't (un)Truth Social.

What do you mean by essential?

Fuel, energy, parts and assemblies and entire vehicles, lighting, components used in industry providing fuel, energy, water, food.. The list of what counts as essential in practice and will be paid for by the average consumer is far too long to go through. Yes, much (but in reality, likely not all) of this could be produced in the US, but until (and if) it is, essential goods are imported and tariffs will be paid on them.

We have VAT in the UK, which is supposed to only be applied to luxury items, but in reality affects essentials too.

No, VAT is supposed to be applied to more or less everything. Some items will have reduced rates, this includes many essentials such as insulation and heating equipment. Essentials like most food, childrens clothing, and effectively legally mandated goods like PPE, are 'charged' at 0% (this is separate from 'exempt' for paperwok reasons). Luxury items was the old purchase tax, and included things like cars at up to 66% (cars today can be argued as a necessity for many, and in the US there isnt even an argument as they've spent the last 60 odd years expressly building much of the country to make car dependency a reality).

Whilst tariffs are can be perfectly legitimate way of raising tax, there are genuine issues with the way they've been implemented by the current US administration.

Absolutely. Very high on the list of issues is how they're not being represented as what they are: Taxes paid by the population.

[Zero999]

The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods

And if the tariffs were remotely that selective, perhaps you'd have a point.. but they're not, and critical goods and supplies are imported because they're not made in the US.

You may as well be making the oft-repeated claim that other countries pay the tariffs for all the truth in your posts. This isn't (un)Truth Social.

What do you mean by essential?

Fuel, energy, parts and assemblies and entire vehicles, lighting, components used in industry providing fuel, energy, water, food.. The list of what counts as essential in practice and will be paid for by the average consumer is far too long to go through. Yes, much (but in reality, likely not all) of this could be produced in the US, but until (and if) it is, essential goods are imported and tariffs will be paid on them.

I already hinted at that in my other post, although not in such great detail.

We have VAT in the UK, which is supposed to only be applied to luxury items, but in reality affects essentials too.

No, VAT is supposed to be applied to more or less everything. Some items will have reduced rates, this includes many essentials such as insulation and heating equipment. Essentials like most food, childrens clothing, and effectively legally mandated goods like PPE, are 'charged' at 0% (this is separate from 'exempt' for paperwok reasons). Luxury items was the old purchase tax, and included things like cars at up to 66% (cars today can be argued as a necessity for many, and in the US there isnt even an argument as they've spent the last 60 odd years expressly building much of the country to make car dependency a reality).

Semantics. Same thing. Tax on things people generally can either live without, or use need less often, albeit be less comfortable and/or suffer inconvenience, compared to food, which no one can live without.

Whilst tariffs are can be perfectly legitimate way of raising tax, there are genuine issues with the way they've been implemented by the current US administration.

Absolutely. Very high on the list of issues is how they're not being represented as what they are: Taxes paid by the population.

I wonder what the response would have been if the Democrats decided to have a sales tax? Whilst not the same thing i.e. it's applied when goods are sold to the end user and not by companies, it would have a similar effect.

I can't help but notice, whether certain people agree with a policy or not, often depends on how it's framed, rather than the policy in itself or whether it's a good or bad idea in general. Make China pay and bring back American industry, will gain more support from the right and criticism from the left, whilst raise taxes to spend on services will be supported by the left, but be opposed by the right.

Note: I don't support either of the above.

[PlainName]

Note that there won't be sudden dearth of semis because companies like ASML and Apple who are going to build chip plants in the US will have zero tariffs, so that's actually better for them than the status quo.

neither asml nor apple will ever build a chip plant, in the us or anywhere else

Irrelevant. They just have to go through the motions. I would bet that Trump doesn't even care if they build in the US or not - it's the optics, and so he can brag about how much he's brought home. Once it's served its purpose he will forget about it.

[wilfred]

The tariffs are on non-essential, imported goods, because the US is large enough to make all the essential goods domestically. People with disposable income are affected more. IMHO much more preferred method than taxing the hell out of everyone, and than passing it in a lump sum to your cronies, like it was happening just half a year ago.

That sounds completely backwards to me. People with disposable incomes, don't have to spend beyond that which meets their needs. They can, but they can choose not to if something isn't necessary. But they also can afford more spending on services which aren't subjected to an import tariff. Or they can save and invest.

But poorer people who have little disposable income for non essential spending cannot choose to not spend on essential goods like food, fuel or replacement items like shoes, clothing or household appliances and electronics things like TVs computers and smartphones. A larger portion of their income will have to go to paying tariffs on imported goods. That is why tariffs are a regressive tax on consumption.

Not being an American I am not sure what lump sums to cronies six months ago means exactly. If I were to guess it is referring to some Biden administration thing.

[tszaboo]

and electronics things like TVs computers and smartphones. A larger portion of their income will have to go to paying tariffs on imported goods. That is why tariffs are a regressive tax on consumption.

Full stop, having the new iphone or a fancy TV isn't essential.
Essential items are Food, water, shelter, clothing. All of them are made locally in the US, and the imports are minimal, or they can be made locally. Yes even clothing, look at American Eagle jeans, everyone is talking about them now. When we talk about food, it's going to be grain and corn, not avocado toast and banana (which was discussed here before).

TV and computers and phones are luxury items, where you spend your extra, disposable income to buy them.

[themadhippy]

. When we talk about food, it's going to be grain and corn, not avocado toast and banana

and homegrown coffees is gonna be a bit scarce.Still the key ingredients for the national dish (big mac,fries.large coke)all appear to be available homegrown

[PlainName]

When we talk about food, it's going to be grain and corn, not avocado toast and banana

Doesn't that mean that people are worse off, regardless of what they might spend their own money on? During the election, did they all go "Yeah, make my money be worth less so I can't afford the little luxuries and have to cope on subsistence rations"? I can't imagine the non-masochists did.

So why is it OK for tariffs to make your standard of living worse?

[Zero999]

Note that there won't be sudden dearth of semis because companies like ASML and Apple who are going to build chip plants in the US will have zero tariffs, so that's actually better for them than the status quo.

neither asml nor apple will ever build a chip plant, in the us or anywhere else

Irrelevant. They just have to go through the motions. I would bet that Trump doesn't even care if they build in the US or not - it's the optics, and so he can brag about how much he's brought home. Once it's served its purpose he will forget about it.

Isn't that the same with any politician? Just listen to what our prime minister says and how he's smashing the gangs and being tough on deporting, but nothing will happen.

. When we talk about food, it's going to be grain and corn, not avocado toast and banana

and homegrown coffees is gonna be a bit scarce.Still the key ingredients for the national dish (big mac,fries.large coke)all appear to be available homegrown

Coffee isn't a food. It's regarded as a luxury and is taxed in many countries.

When we talk about food, it's going to be grain and corn, not avocado toast and banana

Doesn't that mean that people are worse off, regardless of what they might spend their own money on? During the election, did they all go "Yeah, make my money be worth less so I can't afford the little luxuries and have to cope on subsistence rations"? I can't imagine the non-masochists did.

So why is it OK for tariffs to make your standard of living worse?

Same for any tax rise.

[tszaboo]

When we talk about food, it's going to be grain and corn, not avocado toast and banana

Doesn't that mean that people are worse off, regardless of what they might spend their own money on? During the election, did they all go "Yeah, make my money be worth less so I can't afford the little luxuries and have to cope on subsistence rations"? I can't imagine the non-masochists did.

So why is it OK for tariffs to make your standard of living worse?

They aren't worse off because income tax is reduced.
He actually is planning to reduce income tax to zero up to 150K per year. This was the plan all along, and it was communicated in simple plain English.
As I said already here, I would take this deal without thinking a second about it.

[themadhippy]

Coffee isn't a food. It's regarded as a luxury and is taxed in many countries.

maybe so,but it is the most popular drink in the us,and look wot happened when they tried a  tax on tea.