Author Topic: Tariffs  (Read 430530 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #775 on: April 21, 2025, 08:36:04 pm »
A few years ago Bojo declared UK is going back to Imperial. Had that ever happened?

Jacob Rees-Mogg, in 2019, issued a style guide to his minions that demanded the use of Imperial measurements.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/26/the-comma-touch-jacob-rees-mogg-sends-language-rules-to-staff
I'm not sure what his post was then, but it seems to be analogous to that now occupied in the US by Musk.

JR-M's unofficial title was "Minister for the 19th Century". (He even named his 6th child "Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher", clearly channelling the princes in Stardust")
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Offline MK14

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #776 on: April 21, 2025, 08:48:54 pm »
Read the public statements of people he chose to work with him in his previous administration. A horrifying proportion make very damning comments on his ability and suitability to be president.

Don't forget that Trump has declared bankruptcy 6 (six) times. That's not the hallmark of a good businessman. Once might be unfortunate, two careless, but six are...

I've seen (but not personally checked) credible calculations to the effect that if Trump had merely invested his enormous inheritance in the stock market, then he would be richer than he is today. That implies his business empire has generated negative personal wealth! Now he is doing that in a wider context.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  He has, apparently, had a bee in his bonnet about tariffs for decades, and has now enacted his dreams. Note previous paragraph.

Prediction: tariffs will cause inflation inside the US, and Trump will blame the Fed for not lowering interest rates.

Sticking to just tariffs, to attempt to keep this thread, within bounds.

The concept of applying tariffs, just as many other countries do, including the UK.  Can be fine.

But in this case, it seems to be very badly implemented.

For simplification, let's remove China/Russia from this equation, as it en couches into restraining China and treatment of wars (Russia), which is a much more complicated ball game.  Probably best left out of this thread.

So as regards the other countries.

I think it should have been handled in a much friendlier way.

Various things should have been left out of the tariffs, for humanitarian reasons.  Such as non-luxury Food, Clothing, Medicines, Books, and other similar category items.

The percentage amounts, should be considerably less.  Such as 2%.

Rather friendly to the US and/or with lucrative trade deals for both parties, should either be lower 1% or even free-trade (0%).

Stuff needed by existing or future, US based businesses, shouldn't be paying much or any tariffs.  Since you want to build up your own businesses, and if they can buy stuff tariff free, they can then sell more stuff world-wide, as they can sell at better prices, to the world-market.

The money (tax) raised, should be perhaps better used, by pumping it back into your own businesses, in various ways.  To encourage balance of payment, improvements.

Things should be announced and decided, well in advance.  So everyone has time to plan for, adjust and get things ready.  Before the tariffs, kick-in.  E.g. 9 months advanced notice.

If the tax (tariff) raised, for a particular shipment, is less than some threshold amount, e.g. $100.  Then it should be tariff free.  To avoid adding unnecessary complications, red-tape, administration, hassle, difficulties etc to transactions.

If the US doesn't currently produce the item(s), at even vaguely the same prices and/or is NOT interested in producing such things or can't produce such things (e.g. raw materials unavailable in the US or needs certain climates to produce the fruit/vegetables, unavailable in the US, etc).  Then it should be tariff free.

These set of rules (I'm NOT an economist, don't have access to the right information and haven't spent time to research a proper set of rules), should be created by a talented team of economists and other suitable people.  Who quietly research and plan, the exact details.  Ready for the administration and president to finalize.

In summary.  Tariffs can be ok (I suspect), but need to be very carefully and highly professionally created and implemented.  Otherwise, you can end up with a mess, and make things (in all sorts of ways), worse than they were, before the tariffs.

The US stock markets, apparently collapsing in a dramatic way, after the tariffs were announced.   Was a clear sign that things were NOT right.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2025, 08:54:14 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #777 on: April 21, 2025, 08:58:20 pm »
Those are sensible points, of course.

Part of T'rumps strategy was stated before the election: flood the opposition with so many changes they are overwhelmed and don't know what to do.

To that extent the tariffs don't matter, and can be regarded as merely a smokescreen for the other changes which will be more damaging in the long term and which can't be reversed on a whim.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #778 on: April 21, 2025, 09:37:09 pm »
Those are sensible points, of course.

Part of T'rumps strategy was stated before the election: flood the opposition with so many changes they are overwhelmed and don't know what to do.
The problem is that such kind of bullying doesn't impress the people at the other end at all. I used to work for a company where the financial guy's only MO was bullying suppliers into his weird world view that he was always right. The end result was that the company could only buy under pre-payment terms and quality suppliers didn't want to do any business unless they where really desperate for some cash. One of the reasons I left was because at some point I couldn't get the sales droids over to show me products because they where banned from dealing with my employer. When I left, the same guy tried to bully me out of a couple of weeks of pay. That didn't work ofcourse.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #779 on: April 21, 2025, 10:13:42 pm »
Those are sensible points, of course.

Part of T'rumps strategy was stated before the election: flood the opposition with so many changes they are overwhelmed and don't know what to do.
The problem is that such kind of bullying doesn't impress the people at the other end at all. I used to work for a company where the financial guy's only MO was bullying suppliers into his weird world view that he was always right. The end result was that the company could only buy under pre-payment terms and quality suppliers didn't want to do any business unless they where really desperate for some cash. One of the reasons I left was because at some point I couldn't get the sales droids over to show me products because they where banned from dealing with my employer. When I left, the same guy tried to bully me out of a couple of weeks of pay. That didn't work ofcourse.

Just so. Everybody is now aggressively looking at ways to reduce their dependency on the US. It won't be completed in my lifetime, but my daughter will see it.

No wonder the Chinese regard T'rump as "comrade nation builder". He is achieving what the Chinese could not achieve on their own.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #780 on: April 21, 2025, 11:15:52 pm »
I suggest you try out the disadvantages of overnight converting the speed limits and signage on an entire road network from one system to another. That has nothing to do with national identity. As for pints - please, explain the disadvantage of them and the benefit in changing them..
That's exactly about that. Enjoy your pint. All the fun starts when you have to do a calculations

I have no need to do calculations involving pints, and the calculations involving speed on the road are trivial because the unit of distance matches the unit of speed.

Keeping distances and speed in miles has nothing to do with pride - changing the units will kill people for absolutely no gain.

It didn't kill people in Australia.

Many speedometers were marked in both mph & kmh, plus you could buy overlays to modify your speedo markings for older cars.
The speed in built up areas is normally 60kmh, & it was 35mph, which was  pretty much the same speed, give or take a kmh or so.
Open road speed limits are normally 110kmh, & were 65 mph.

Those were the main ones people had to remember, although about 10 years later, my wife realised that she had got caught out by the mph speedo on my old Renault R12, when she wondered why everybody was "driving so slow".

During the "changeover" period, though, you would have had to be living in a cave, not to know the relationships between the old & new limit signs.
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #781 on: April 22, 2025, 12:06:43 am »
It didn't kill people in Australia.

Didn't it? You can conclusively state that not one person died in a traffic accident as a result of the change of units?

Quote
about 10 years later, my wife realised that she had got caught out by the mph speedo on my old Renault R12, when she wondered why everybody was "driving so slow".

So you have direct experience of a gross speed error caused by the change, years later to boot, and seemingly dismiss the potential of that to cause an accident.

1983, Gimli Glider. Very lucky. 1999, Korean Air 6316 - 8 fatalities, 42 injuries. These involved well trained individuals, rather than the average driver (who sucks).

It's great you got it done, probably a minor shame we didn't. But, apart from changing from godawful American style signs as part of the process (we already have sane ones).. what's the upside for you? The sole issue I have with remaining with miles is that nobody has bothered to standardise on a more appropriate fuel consumption unit, miles per gallon when buying fuel by the litre is a bit silly.. but I also almost never need to work with those figures. Done today, there's not a doubt in my mind of fatal consequences.
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #782 on: April 22, 2025, 12:30:56 am »
But, apart from changing from godawful American style signs as part of the process (we already have sane ones)..
So what's so godawful about our road signs?
Not disputing you (we have a lot of godawful stuff here), just wondering what specifically you find so distasteful.
And how do yours compare?
Pictures?
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #783 on: April 22, 2025, 12:42:58 am »
But, apart from changing from godawful American style signs as part of the process (we already have sane ones)..
So what's so godawful about our road signs?
Not disputing you (we have a lot of godawful stuff here), just wondering what specifically you find so distasteful.
And how do yours compare?
Pictures?

Too many words, too little distinction between sign types, often far too infrequent (what's the speed limit on this road? Well I don't know, there was no sign, so I guess it's the default speed for this class of road.. in this county.. in this state.. oh there's untold hundreds of those combinations to pick from, what was the limit again?)..
 

Offline Altair8800

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #784 on: April 22, 2025, 03:03:05 am »


Last few days finished up purchasing a whole bunch of electronics stuff online before the 2 May 2025 "de minimus" tariff exemptions (under $800 tariff free) end.  Hopefully they get here (or at least into the country) before the 245% tariffs takes place.

Assume tons of places will be hit (Amazon, Aliexpress, Banggood, Temu, eBay, Walmart, Target, Dollar Tree, etc, etc.). 
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #785 on: April 22, 2025, 04:39:28 am »
It didn't kill people in Australia.

Didn't it? You can conclusively state that not one person died in a traffic accident as a result of the change of units?
Obviously not at this remove, but if it had happened, the media would have "been all over it", as Metrication was a "hot topic"
Quote

Quote
about 10 years later, my wife realised that she had got caught out by the mph speedo on my old Renault R12, when she wondered why everybody was "driving so slow".

So you have direct experience of a gross speed error caused by the change, years later to boot, and seemingly dismiss the potential of that to cause an accident.

Yes, once, but being a competent driver, she moderated her speed to that of the traffic flow, & didn't have an accident.
She wasn't going to be steaming along at 160kmh if the sign said "100", as apart from anything else, the R12 would be battling to get there.

Millions of drivers travelled thousands of km without incident, so statistically, the chance of it causing an accident was minimal.
Quote

1983, Gimli Glider. Very lucky. 1999, Korean Air 6316 - 8 fatalities, 42 injuries. These involved well trained individuals, rather than the average driver (who sucks).

It's great you got it done, probably a minor shame we didn't. But, apart from changing from godawful American style signs as part of the process (we already have sane ones).. what's the upside for you? The sole issue I have with remaining with miles is that nobody has bothered to standardise on a more appropriate fuel consumption unit, miles per gallon when buying fuel by the litre is a bit silly.. but I also almost never need to work with those figures. Done today, there's not a doubt in my mind of fatal consequences.

litres/100km works OK.
If you have a good idea of how far you get on a tankful, it eventually becomes easy to convert back & forth.

As to our signs---they initially just changed the distance into km, then when they needed replacements, moved the new signs to an even number of km from the destinations if that was convenient.
We used to have all upper case on our signs,& then changed to upper & lower case, but as far as I remember, that was before Metrication.
 

Offline u666sa

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #786 on: April 22, 2025, 05:29:14 am »
Last few days finished up purchasing a whole bunch of electronics stuff online before the 2 May 2025 "de minimus" tariff exemptions (under $800 tariff free) end

Electronics does get an extension on de minimus. You should be fine for now.

Now... Soldering tip is electronics or not? I have to order 1 to find out.
 

Offline u666sa

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #787 on: April 22, 2025, 05:29:57 am »
What am I worrying about lul. I can just order stuff to Russia and either have it shipped to me, or sent over with someone who's coming here.  :-DD
 

Offline Altair8800

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #788 on: April 22, 2025, 06:42:28 am »
@u666sa   Thanks, forgot about the exemptions (almost nobody gave details, found them here, see below...)

I know they (customs) have a very big book of product codes and/or categories of what tariff on what. 

No regrets getting electronics stuff.  Assume some items I got would not (might not) be on the list.

Anyone know if there is still like 20% across the board (on all items) tariffs still in effect?
 
=====
SOURCE (12Apr2025): https://www.livemint.com/news/us-news/from-smartphones-to-laptops-us-exempts-these-20-items-from-trump-tariffs-amid-trade-war-check-full-list-11744471201577.html
=====
...
US exempts these 20 items from T'rum'p tariffs amid trade war. Check full list:
8471: Automatic data processing machines and units thereof; magnetic or optical readers, machines for transcribing data onto data media in coded form and machines for processing such data, not elsewhere specified or included.

8473.30: Parts and accessories of the machines of heading 8471.

8486: Machines and apparatus of a kind used solely or principally for the manufacture of semiconductor boules or wafers, semiconductor devices, electronic integrated circuits or flat panel displays; machines and apparatus specified in note 11(C) to this chapter; parts and accessories.

8517.13.00: Smartphones

8517.62.00: Machines for the reception, conversion and transmission or regeneration of voice, images or other data, including switching and routing apparatus

8523.51.00: Solid-state non-volatile storage devices

8524: Flat panel display modules, whether or not incorporating touch-sensitive screens without drivers or controls circuits

8528.52.00: Capable of directly connecting to and designed for use with an automatic data processing machine of heading 8471

8541.10.00: Diodes, other than photosensitive or light-emitting diodes (LED)

8541.21.00: Transistors, other than photosensitive transistors with a dissipation rate of less than 1 W

8541.29.00: Unmounted chips, dice and wafers

8541.30.00: Thyristors, diacs and triacs, other than photosensitive devices

8541.49.10: Other diodes

8541.49.70: Transistors

8541.49.80: Optical coupled isolators

8541.49.95: Other

8541.51.00: Semiconductor-based transducers

8541.59.00: Other

8541.90.00: Parts

8542: Electronic integrated circuits; parts thereof
=====
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #789 on: April 22, 2025, 07:34:26 am »
...Reading your comment, in full.  I get the impression, you have similar feelings, about the current US administration, such as some of what they are trying to do (just as you said), is potentially a good idea.  But things are just very poorly managed and implemented, which can easily turn good ideas, into a mismanaged mini-disaster.

Read the public statements of people he chose to work with him in his previous administration. A horrifying proportion make very damning comments on his ability and suitability to be president.

Don't forget that Trump has declared bankruptcy 6 (six) times. That's not the hallmark of a good businessman. Once might be unfortunate, two careless, but six are...

I've seen (but not personally checked) credible calculations to the effect that if Trump had merely invested his enormous inheritance in the stock market, then he would be richer than he is today. That implies his business empire has generated negative personal wealth! Now he is doing that in a wider context.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  He has, apparently, had a bee in his bonnet about tariffs for decades, and has now enacted his dreams. Note previous paragraph.

Prediction: tariffs will cause inflation inside the US, and Trump will blame the Fed for not lowering interest rates.
Objectively speaking, Biden wasn't any more suitable to be president, but that didn't matter because others were pulling the strings. Unfortunately, Harries appeared to be equally ineffectual, going by her word salads, but again, she would have been controlled by others, maintaining the status quo.

The problem is, many of Trumps other policies are very popular are some are objectively more sane than the Democrats'. Hopefully the opposition will take note and come to the centre ground, in the next few years.

That's an irrelevant and unimportant straw man argument.

Trump's policies are, at the moment, still popular amongst people who haven't (yet) suffered much and are happy that people they hate are being hurt. Pastor Niemoller wrote a famous poem that is relevant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
You clearly have no idea of the craziness of a good proportion of the opposition. I can think of one of their policies which make Trump's tariffs look sane. I won't go into detail, because it's off topic, but I'll drop a few hints: human biology, the recent UK high court ruling and Title 9.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #790 on: April 22, 2025, 07:36:16 am »
Last few days finished up purchasing a whole bunch of electronics stuff online before the 2 May 2025 "de minimus" tariff exemptions (under $800 tariff free) end

Electronics does get an extension on de minimus. You should be fine for now.

Now... Soldering tip is electronics or not? I have to order 1 to find out.

When VAT was introduced in the UK, 50 years ago, there was a different rate for "luxury" items. Hence some 10µF had one rate, others had another; it depended on whether the capacitor type was/wasn't used in TVs.

Expect similar idiocies and consequent delays.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #791 on: April 22, 2025, 07:40:44 am »
1983, Gimli Glider. Very lucky. 1999, Korean Air 6316 - 8 fatalities, 42 injuries. These involved well trained individuals, rather than the average driver (who sucks).

I had Gimli Glider like problems in my second car, since it didn't have a fuel gauge. Irritating since it was diesel, and needed bleeding after fuel was added.

I solved that problem by installing a meter where the dial read "roentgens/hour".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #792 on: April 22, 2025, 07:42:51 am »
...Reading your comment, in full.  I get the impression, you have similar feelings, about the current US administration, such as some of what they are trying to do (just as you said), is potentially a good idea.  But things are just very poorly managed and implemented, which can easily turn good ideas, into a mismanaged mini-disaster.

Read the public statements of people he chose to work with him in his previous administration. A horrifying proportion make very damning comments on his ability and suitability to be president.

Don't forget that Trump has declared bankruptcy 6 (six) times. That's not the hallmark of a good businessman. Once might be unfortunate, two careless, but six are...

I've seen (but not personally checked) credible calculations to the effect that if Trump had merely invested his enormous inheritance in the stock market, then he would be richer than he is today. That implies his business empire has generated negative personal wealth! Now he is doing that in a wider context.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  He has, apparently, had a bee in his bonnet about tariffs for decades, and has now enacted his dreams. Note previous paragraph.

Prediction: tariffs will cause inflation inside the US, and Trump will blame the Fed for not lowering interest rates.
Objectively speaking, Biden wasn't any more suitable to be president, but that didn't matter because others were pulling the strings. Unfortunately, Harries appeared to be equally ineffectual, going by her word salads, but again, she would have been controlled by others, maintaining the status quo.

The problem is, many of Trumps other policies are very popular are some are objectively more sane than the Democrats'. Hopefully the opposition will take note and come to the centre ground, in the next few years.

That's an irrelevant and unimportant straw man argument.

Trump's policies are, at the moment, still popular amongst people who haven't (yet) suffered much and are happy that people they hate are being hurt. Pastor Niemoller wrote a famous poem that is relevant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
You clearly have no idea of the craziness of a good proportion of the opposition. I can think of one of their policies which make Trump's tariffs look sane. I won't go into detail, because it's off topic, but I'll drop a few hints: human biology, the recent UK high court ruling and Title 9.

There are examples of craziness in this forum. I would feel uncomfortable about pointing fingers.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 07:44:44 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #793 on: April 22, 2025, 08:00:36 am »
some 10µF had one rate, others had another; it depended on whether the capacitor type was/wasn't used in TVs.
Wow..., just wow  :palm:
Seems UK is really, really obsessed with TVs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #794 on: April 22, 2025, 08:24:31 am »
some 10µF had one rate, others had another; it depended on whether the capacitor type was/wasn't used in TVs.
Wow..., just wow  :palm:
Seems UK is really, really obsessed with TVs.

That capacitor idiocy didn't last long. Nowadays the nearest remnants are zero rating on some simple categories such as children's clothing.

Back then TVs were luxury items. Official statistics kept track of the proportion of households which had B&W and later colour TVs; the strictly monotonic increases indicated increasing prosperity.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #795 on: April 22, 2025, 08:27:04 am »
New tariff rate...

US sets tariffs of up to 3,521% on South East Asia solar panels
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ygdv47vlzo

Clearly the US fossil fuel industry needs protection from consumers exercising choice and from the efficient allocation of resources via free market capitalism.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #796 on: April 22, 2025, 08:37:00 am »
New tariff rate...

US sets tariffs of up to 3,521% on South East Asia solar panels
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ygdv47vlzo

Clearly the US fossil fuel industry needs protection from consumers exercising choice and from the efficient allocation of resources via free market capitalism.
At that point, why not just ban the import? Just to keep up an illusion of choice?
 

Online tautech

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #797 on: April 22, 2025, 08:48:00 am »
New tariff rate...

US sets tariffs of up to 3,521% on South East Asia solar panels
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ygdv47vlzo
Good, hopefully that will see better availability and a fall in PV panel costs for the rest of us.
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Offline rteodor

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #798 on: April 22, 2025, 08:56:59 am »
New tariff rate...

US sets tariffs of up to 3,521% on South East Asia solar panels
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ygdv47vlzo

Clearly the US fossil fuel industry needs protection from consumers exercising choice and from the efficient allocation of resources via free market capitalism.
At that point, why not just ban the import? Just to keep up an illusion of choice?

Because the important thing here is the show, the hype, the circus.
Please stop the planet, I want to get off now.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #799 on: April 22, 2025, 08:58:04 am »
That capacitor idiocy didn't last long. Nowadays the nearest remnants are zero rating on some simple categories such as children's clothing.

Back then TVs were luxury items. Official statistics kept track of the proportion of households which had B&W and later colour TVs; the strictly monotonic increases indicated increasing prosperity.

A familiar case to most in the UK will be Jaffa Cakes.

Jaffa Cakes are a form of biscuit to anyone with two eyes, but not to the law.  Chocolate covered biscuits are taxable because they're considered a luxury.  Plain biscuits, and all cakes are not.  Er, why?  No idea.  Historical HMRC decision.  So when HMRC said, "you can't call these cakes just because they've got cake in the name, pay up on the VAT", McVities went to a tribunal where they argued their case.  The story goes that they baked an extra-large Jaffa Cake based upon the ingredients of the biscuit-sized product and demonstrated, just like a cake, that it went hard when stale, not soft like a biscuit.  They won the tribunal and as a result, Jaffa Cakes are still zero rated VAT, even though most other chocoloate-covered biscuits do attract VAT.

 


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