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I don't understand the self censorship to be honest?
Yes I get it's frustrating to get inappropriate emails, but isn't that something you can expect?
What goes around comes around.
I do feel with you though, I never understand why people will defend subjective beliefs like it's the last thing in the world.
Even on this forum it doesn't always make discussions very pleasant.
Just to give some well meant feedback;
I also find your view on cheaper products mostly negative.
Very quickly it's already crap.
Instead it would be nicer to hear some more context around it, see its potential
For example, you can bash on a solder stand or bad cable, but instead you could also think like it would only cost a little effort to make that work.
Most of the time these are accessories put in as a bonus by the webshop anyway
I posted a topic before about this, I kind of miss the tweak and hack mentality.
In the old days we were always looking for potential, less pointing out the flaws.
Btw while the TS80 has nice tips, they aren't compatible with anything else.
This means you can't use your standard Hakko tips that can be bought almost everywhere. -
Hi Dave,
I came to the forum to find out what happend with the video.
First of all I appreciate your content and you long running channel a lot!
Having said that I don't understand your argument about the "rabid fanbase".
As far as I know ts-80 and ts-100 are made by the same company. So why would a viewer be a fanboy of one but hate the other?
I think the reason this video got critical comments was because you found the TS-100 to be less powerful than the TS-80.
This is something that I have personal experience with that it isn't true. My TS-100 reaches more than 65W heating easily.
So that's why I commented: maybe do a followup video where you test with updated firmware, takes only 5 min to update.
I am pretty sure that is some content that would be interresting for your audience and good views.
Of course you can also make your point and say: "but really the TS-100 is rubbish because I first had to update the firmware, and doesn't provide full power out of the box" (assuming this actually fixes the problem).
And how vendors should not expect users to have to update first.
So instead of this, you get into petty comment wars with users (many who jump to wrong conclusions or miss the part of the video where you tried higher voltage), and eventually you take down the video completely frustrated.
As someone who does Youtube for so long, I expected you to handle this more professionally!
But yeah, your channel, your rules. Hope this helps!
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Hi Dave,
I came to the forum to find out what happend with the video.
Thanks, let me try and explain.QuoteHaving said that I don't understand your argument about the "rabid fanbase".
As far as I know ts-80 and ts-100 are made by the same company. So why would a viewer be a fanboy of one but hate the other?
Because people absolutely love the TS100, and countless people who already own it have pestered me to do a review on it, of course so that I can validate their purchase and love of it.QuoteI think the reason this video got critical comments was because you found the TS-100 to be less powerful than the TS-80.
Yes, because people who own and love the TS100 don't want to hear that.QuoteThis is something that I have personal experience with that it isn't true. My TS-100 reaches more than 65W heating easily.
So that's why I commented: maybe do a followup video where you test with updated firmware, takes only 5 min to update.
I checked, I was running the latest 2.18 firmware as was shown in the video.
http://www.minidso.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=892
If you mean the 3rd party software, then I'm not sure I agree that's a fair comparison. As a first pass the comparison should be done with the latest stock firmware like I used.QuoteOf course you can also make your point and say: "but really the TS-100 is rubbish because I first had to update the firmware, and doesn't provide full power out of the box" (assuming this actually fixes the problem).
And how vendors should not expect users to have to update first.
How was I supposed to know any of this?
I took the iron out of the box, I used used and measured the consumption, and it didn't perform. Is this somehow my fault?
Also, didn't Marco Reps(?) review the TS80 and found it outperformed the TS100 also?QuoteSo instead of this, you get into petty comment wars with users (many who jump to wrong conclusions or miss the part of the video where you tried higher voltage)
Bingo, I corrected them as I always do.
Because I was forced to do this 20 times, it probably looked "petty".Quote, and eventually you take down the video completely frustrated.
As someone who does Youtube for so long, I expected you to handle this more professionally!
Let me try and explain it to you from a content creators point of view.
We continue to get comments and email for years after a video is released, and for "controversial" videos this can get to ridiculous and unmanageable proportions.
Some say just ignore then, or delete them, or block them. or disable comments, but I pride myself on being a Youtuber who goes to the massive amount of effort to respond to comments and clear up misconceptions etc. And it would pain me to not be able to do it.
I've produced over 1500 video, so from the comments and email so far I can tell that it's never going to end, so the best decision was to remove the video.
As mentioned, it wasn't meant to be a review video, it was a quick comparison with a borrowed iron and the only tip I had. But as fate would have it, that was never going to be good enough or acceptable for many people.
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https://youtu.be/83STpUXHilk?t=374
Actually you are right. Marco Reps video is super funny by the way.
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
But he also shows the TS100 drawing 60W, which made me think you have a problem in your setup (firmware or maybe you got a faulty device).
In any case thanks again! -
TS80 certainly has better performance as it should, being the successor to the TS100. However, without knowing what additional tips will be available in future and how much they will cost (if this info is out there let us know as I haven't found it) - so far I'm not tempted to upgrade from the TS100. If the tips turn out the be $20-$30, there is a open source alternative that uses Weller RT tips.
I do like the USB-C power as I currently use a 2P3S powerbank with 18650 cells that allow me to set the voltage between 3-21V which is obviously bulky, so a small quickcharge 3.0 powerbank would be nice. -
FWIW it was a low quality part of the video which lacked objectivity. While I agree to almost all bad things you said about TS100, performance comparison was a fail (even if you'd get the same poor result with larger tip). If you don't have comparable tip, IMO you should either order one or just don't compare heating power, even with comment that they are not the same. Because this is like comparing apples vs oranges but still making a conclusion. The fact it didn't go much above 20W power consumption clearly shows that the tip just keeps the set temperature at built in thermocouple while a lot of temperature drops over the distance between it and point of the tip due to comparably small cross section. IME, tip with such shape won't do that great heat transfer even if it was JBC.QuoteI think the reason this video got critical comments was because you found the TS-100 to be less powerful than the TS-80.
Yes, because people who own and love the TS100 don't want to hear that. -
I actually don't get most critical comments.
Dave was trying to prove a point.
People are just nitpicking, putting things out of context and blowing things out of proportion.
Like I said before, bringing up subjective arguments like it's the end of the world
The only few things that count;
Does it solder well, is it easy to use, how much does it cost, doesn't it fall apart and is it ergonomic?
Besides we are talking about a different between 18W and 65W.
Is it so difficult to put these numbers in perspective?
That difference is HUGE! -
Well - for me I think either of them would make for a great through hole iron on my bench with my Hakko 950 taking care of 99% of the SMD components. It certainly takes up a lot less room than a second bench iron.
From seeing the pair of them, the 200/80 certainly seems to be the more modern device. I have a 12V lipo that I use for my astronomy gear but its big and having seen that QC 3.0 USB batteries are no more expensive than normal ones, I think this makes up my mind.
I hope for all those who know and love the TS100 - that it if it is possible to port some of the same love and functionality to the 80 in future with an open source FW - that would be great.
Dave - I liked a lot that you reviewed both. I also wish you had the same tip on both (at least a bit closer in size/type!) but you had what you had and that does not invalidate what happened when you carried out your tests. Shame if the video disappears for good. -
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
Ok, so the TS80 beats the TS100 as per the conclusion I came to.
Now, knowing this, if I redo the video and get that result are people going to complain that I went in with a "negative attitude"?
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I think it is clear looking at the performance that the TS80 tip design is a generational improvement on the 100 design. Its great that the company did this and did not just take the cheaper route of creating a second body / pcb that worked with the same tips.
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Dave - I liked a lot that you reviewed both. I also wish you had the same tip on both (at least a bit closer in size/type!) but you had what you had and that does not invalidate what happened when you carried out your tests. Shame if the video disappears for good.
I did my best to compensate for the tip geometry by having extra solder covering the tip, and I even pointed this out in the video, I thought it was fairly equivalent. But nope, not good enough for people, and well, I'm not going to argue, and why I don't want to still be arguing the same thing in a years time. -
IMO if you get a proper cartridge for TS100, and reshoot performance comparison part of the video, overall it would be a great video. I don't think there would be much objective and subjective reasons to complain.He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
Ok, so the TS80 beats the TS100 as per the conclusion I came to.
Now, knowing this, if I redo the video and get that result are people going to complain that I went in with a "negative attitude"? -
And to be honest, my motivation to go and remake the video is near zero.
I'd have to get another TS100 (because questions of different models, potential faulty unit etc), various tips (none of which actually match the TS80 precisely it seems), Hakko tips to check compatibility, maybe a Hakko 951 for comparison, different power sources (and hack a way to monitor power from those) to prove they are all equal, the hacked firmware, etc, it's all just too much. Add on top that I've done a fair few soldering videos lately, and well, I think I'm just better off forgetting all about it.
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The tip is everything, you can clearly see that with the TS80.
IMO if you get a proper cartridge for TS100, and reshoot performance comparison part of the video, overall it would be a great video. I don't think there would be much objective and subjective reasons to complain.He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
Ok, so the TS80 beats the TS100 as per the conclusion I came to.
Now, knowing this, if I redo the video and get that result are people going to complain that I went in with a "negative attitude"?
Since the circuit of the TS100 is almost identical, I don't really see why there should be an enormous difference.
The question is, are there similar cartridges available for the TS100? -
I did my best to compensate for the tip geometry by having extra solder covering the tip, and I even pointed this out in the video, I thought it was fairly equivalent.
There is still a significant distance with low cross section. It greatly reduces the performance. There is a good reason why JBC has regular and high performance tips of the same size. One offers better accessibility in tight places, other much better heat transfer.
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I think I'm just better off forgetting all about it.
Good call! People are too heated on this topic and any new video would just bring that up again. No matter what you do, someone would think you did something wrong anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if someone came to tell that you hooked power leads the wrong way around and electrons cant flow to the tip properly
Better to move on to another things... -
I'd have to get another TS100 (because questions of different models, potential faulty unit etc)
There were different revisions but AFAIK the only significant change was different accelerometer used, hence you see two footprints for different parts as this is newer revision. I don't think there is any reason to believe it could be faulty. BTW with alternative firmware actual tip temperature will increase and should be very close to displayed. -
I don't find the temp difference such a big deal to be very honest.I'd have to get another TS100 (because questions of different models, potential faulty unit etc)
There were different revisions but AFAIK the only significant change was different accelerometer used, hence you see two footprints for different parts as this is newer revision. I don't think there is any reason to believe it could be faulty. BTW with alternative firmware actual tip temperature will increase and should be very close to displayed.
I personally rarely even care about temp, since it doesn't say that much about performance.
Just go by feel, if it doesn't solder, just bump up the temp a little higher.
If it still doesn't solder and it's big; get a bigger tip
Btw, nowadays there are plenty of power banks with a 19V output -
I don't find the temp difference such a big deal to be very honest.
When you set exactly the same temperature and do side by side comparison on high thermal mass plane, 10-20oC can make a quite noticeable difference. Especially when using lead-free solder. -
wow... that's some mighty full-on angst for an A-B test of a couple of cheap soldering irons!
sounds like everyone getting upset needs to go out and buy some more soldering irons, so they don't only have one iron to define their sense of self worth. -
Yes, but ehm isn't it about practice?I don't find the temp difference such a big deal to be very honest.
When you set exactly the same temperature and do side by side comparison on high thermal mass plane, 10-20oC can make a quite noticeable difference. Especially when using lead-free solder.
I understand your point, but like I said, if it won't solder, just bump up the temp a little?
Who cares if solder iron A is a little off compared to solder iron B.
Only thing I care about is; will it solder?
Just because the reading is off (on the LCD screen) doesn't say much about the tip temperature.
And in fact, the tip temperature doesn't say much about the solder temperature, let alone the temperature in the part that is being heated with it.
So it's a bit of an arbitrary value anyway. -
The tip is everything, you can clearly see that with the TS80.
Since the circuit of the TS100 is almost identical, I don't really see why there should be an enormous difference.
It's not just the shape and volume of the tip, it's the heater element coupling size, shape and placement, inner coupling material efficiency, outer plating type and thickness etc.QuoteThe question is, are there similar cartridges available for the TS100?
Not in the new design AFAIK. Apparently it takes Hakko tips with some 3D printed adapter?
Only issue is now you get into an endless comparison of different tips types and manufacturers to determine the "winner" in thermal capacity.
And even then, that might not matter a rats arse for most users under most circumstances.
This is why I do the low temperature tests that I do, to push the tips to their lower (impractical) limits in order to see the real differences. Many people don't seem to understand this concept. -
Yes, but ehm isn't it about practice?
Well, we are commenting about video after all. As of real world, simply bumping temperature is not and issue if you need to make a few solder joints. However when you are doing many tens and hundreds of them, there is a big difference. Flux starts to burn on the tip and a lot of dross appears. Tip oxidizes and needs tinning done very often.
I understand your point, but like I said, if it won't solder, just bump up the temp a little?
Who cares if solder iron A is a little off compared to solder iron B.
Only thing I care about is; will it solder? -
Yes I agree.The tip is everything, you can clearly see that with the TS80.
Since the circuit of the TS100 is almost identical, I don't really see why there should be an enormous difference.
It's not just the shape and volume of the tip, it's the heater element coupling size, shape and placement, inner coupling material efficiency, outer plating type and thickness etc.QuoteThe question is, are there similar cartridges available for the TS100?
Not in the new design AFAIK. Apparently it takes Hakko tips with some 3D printed adapter?
Only issue is now you get into an endless comparison of different tips types and manufacturers to determine the "winner" in thermal capacity.
And even then, that might not matter a rats arse for most users under most circumstances.
This is why I do the low temperature tests that I do, to push the tips to their lower (impractical) limits in order to see the real differences. Many people don't seem to understand this concept.
There is quite some engineering in those tips
I personally never get why there needs to be "winners"?
As if there is only one type of scenario, it is just a different product.
For example, absolutely no way I would buy either of these in an harsh professional environment.
Also the fact that the availability for parts is extremely limited, so for companies this is automatically a no go.
Does that immediately makes it a bad product? No, it's just made for a different purpose.
It's a bit like audiophools, but than like solderironphools (or maybe just gearphools).
A good review should point that out and see if the product succeeds the performance for the market it's made for.
A bluetooth speaker is also not made for live concerts. -
So the TS-80 was better? That's too bad, I bought a TS100 a few weeks ago (it just arrived), thinking that it would be much better than my $30 piece of crap iron (and it is). However, it's a bit inconvenient that I have to have a good power supply nearby with an appropriate barrel jack, the QC3.0 with USB-C iron would have been much more convenient. Oh well, maybe I'll sell the TS100 to someone and order the TS80.
I would have liked to see the video, though, as I always enjoy Dave's analyses (and was surprised the conclusion on the original TS80 video wasn't "it's crap, just get a proper $1000 iron"). Too bad it got taken down.