Battleborn - hazard by design -

[Langdon]

I am a bit surprised, that this video hasnt made its way into this forum:


Here is an answer from the manufacturer:


I wonder how many fires this battery has started, since this design is 6 years old. Also I wonder how nothing happend in all those years in regards to the design. There was one user in the comments, saying, that he has reached out to the manufacturer, and nothing happend. I am truly blown away, by the answer from the company. Companies these days... 

While you appear to be correct, you're asking for a defamation lawsuit.
They won't win (most likely), but you'll have to spends tons of money on lawyers.
Do you have that kind of money readily available?

[Bud]

Defamation lawsuits must meet certain criteria, and the damage must be proven. One can't slap defamation lawsuits left and right.

[Renate]

Late to the party here, but always interested in RV battery issues.
The "Battleborn" brand has always given me iffy vibes. I didn't know about the Nevada connection.

But this is a "full-size" battery and it's only 100 AH?
You can buy 4 "bricks" of 300 AH and put in a BMS for a better solution.

[PlainName]

Defamation lawsuits must meet certain criteria, and the damage must be proven. One can't slap defamation lawsuits left and right.

What you mean is a defamation lawsuit must meet certain criteria to succeed. Anyone can bring any lawsuit they want with the risk that it will be costly if it fails. That's why normal people aren't bringing them. But rich people know that normal people can't afford the monetary risk of losing, however ridiculous the lawsuit is, and use such suits to bully their target. It is well known enough to have its own term: SLAPP - Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation.

A certain well-tanned country leader is known for this, currently suing the BBC for $10b for allegedly dissing him badly enough that he lost the last election. He thought he would get them to settle for a few million, just like the US media companies did in similar cases that had no merit, but the BBC has a backbone

So, likely Battelborn figured if they looked serious enough a know-nothing influencer would shit their pants and make an apology rather than risk being made bankrupt should they lose. Bad luck they picked the BBC version of influencer.

[Langdon]

Defamation lawsuits must meet certain criteria, and the damage must be proven. One can't slap defamation lawsuits left and right.

What you mean is a defamation lawsuit must meet certain criteria to succeed. Anyone can bring any lawsuit they want with the risk that it will be costly if it fails. That's why normal people aren't bringing them. But rich people know that normal people can't afford the monetary risk of losing, however ridiculous the lawsuit is, and use such suits to bully their target. It is well known enough to have its own term: SLAPP - Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation.

A certain well-tanned country leader is known for this, currently suing the BBC for $10b for allegedly dissing him badly enough that he lost the last election. He thought he would get them to settle for a few million, just like the US media companies did in similar cases that had no merit, but the BBC has a backbone

So, likely Battelborn figured if they looked serious enough a know-nothing influencer would shit their pants and make an apology rather than risk being made bankrupt should they lose. Bad luck they picked the BBC version of influencer.

YES!!!!

This is what I wanted to say, but my dumb brain can't write.

 

[PlainName]

You're welcome 

[errolprowse]

Yeah while Will's videos are entertaining, his approaches to testing and analysis often annoy me.

For example he did another video tearing down one of those bad batteries:


At 1:50, he shows the measured capacity and ESR of a set of cells and says that 73% of the cells are at 0V (internally fuse popped, I suppose) and the remainder only have half their capacity remaining. Well, that means the battery these cells came from should only be capable of delivering 13.5% of its rated capacity. But in his previous video he stated that the worst of all those batteries delivered 26.8Ahr our of its 100Ahr rating. Obviously he made a mistake somewhere, or just didn't explain things correctly.

edit: oh and I have to bring up this other video where he compares crimped vs soldered lugs:


He compares resistance of cable segments with crimped and soldered lugs, stating that lower resistance is better.
He expresses shock that the soldered cables have much lower resistance than he expected, with one of them having lower resistance than the crimped cable.
Then he tests each cable by intentionally giving it a poor connection at both ends, causing the terminals to heat excessively, and he yanks one the cables in that state. To nobody's surprise, the soldered cable comes apart, the crimped one holds together.
He concludes that crimps are obviously better, ignoring his own resistance test results. No suggestion of adding strain relief to address the possibility of disconnects with soldered cables.
I actually agree with his overall conclusion here, but his reasoning is just really lazy and he has clear biases.

Great point and I was super confused by this as well until I looked at the data and then reproduced this exact same event in another battery. So what we are seeing here is a cascade effect. The more cells that are lost, the more current going through the remaining cells. One by one they disconnect with the CID in the top of the cell.

Here is my graph of before and after in a second battery to reproduce this: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/12x-battleborn-batteries-w-9-years-of-service.127226/post-1870621

I post whatever I find and then we argue about it on the forum. I have the graphs for both tests, for both batteries.

One thing I screwed up is saying IR was 0. I should have said OL or something else. I did mess that up.

And what was wrong with the solder test? That has been mentioned a lot. And of course it is low resistance. Did you see my other crimping videos where I measured voltage drop across something like 40 different cables I made? what was wrong with the tests? I am here to learn

[errolprowse]

I did some digging to see if Battleborn batteries are available in Europe. I figured that "Battleborn" isn't really a brand name that would necessarily stick well with Europeans. We don't really buy into badass names or military-themed products, and there isn't as much of a market for "doomsday prepper"-marketed stuff. We prefer cleaner, more neutral names. "Battleborn" wouldn't give European buyers any confidence in the products.

Turns out the same batteries are sold under a different name "Transporter Energy", mainly in the UK. Which is also a more appropriate brand name for the European market I would say.
They have a black case and green lid, but otherwise the lid and terminals seem to have the same shape. (Unless LiFePo4's have standardised form factors)

https://nohma.com/product/battle-born-batteries-uk-transporter-energy-100ah-lithium-leisure-battery/
quote from the linked web page:

Battle Born Batteries UK – AKA Transporter Energy – 100Ah 12V Lithium Leisure Battery
Transporter Energy are Battle Born Batteries UK – they supply the leading Battle Born Batteries from the USA produced in the USA to the UK market. The only change is the name and casing – the technology and high quality remain the same.

There is at least one ebay listing from a German seller.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125895708285

Would be interesting to see if there are any reports of issues with these. Or if they are tested with other third parties for approval in the European market, which could have picked up on the issues seen in the American battleborns.

Oh yeah, same design and same issues reported (image attached)

I don't disagree with any of the above comments. Again, not saying that Will's conclusion regarding crimps vs solder is wrong, just that his reasoning and explanation is poor (for the soldered cable, did he use a terminal designed for soldering? What sort of solder was used? What soldering process?). So he's not convincing.

He has no formal EE education so it does make sense that he's lacking on many of the fine details.

I don't know if they make solderable versions of this style of high current connector. I believe the point is more so that people would buy the crimp version, try to save money by not getting a crimper, and soldering them.

The type of solder used shouldn't be relevant.

I do not, but I did start building circuits when I was 9 and coding at 12 and I have built various types of robots including animatronic systems and robotic arms. I went to school for medicine but then was disabled from a nerve disorder and had to drop out. I had the best grades recorded in my school before that, and won the robotics competition and science fair.

I actually learned a lot from this forum years ago and I cannot log into my old account. I have a lot to learn and am always learning more everyday. I have calibrated and certified test equipment now and you can download my data yourself. If I say something stupid, let me know. I want to learn. I love electronics even though I was never formally trained.

The capacity loss can indeed have 2 forms:
One is triggering the cell internal protection, so that some cells no longer contribute at all. The other is the cells overall getting old and tired and a more gradual loss of capacitor over time, e.g. from oxigen diffusing to the cells.

The video showed that quite some cells are dead / high impedance and thus the first mode of capacity loss.

The test with high current can trigger the cell internal protection. Though most of the time used with low current, the one cycle with high current may well have damaged the battery and cause much of the capacity loss. The batteries may well have had Ok capacity before the high current test.
I would expect high current the main reason to make cells fail.

The conclusion is still right: check the capacity to test if the battery is still OK. If the capacity is low it would be no longer safe to use with high current, as the current would be concentrated to fewer cells and the temperature sensor may be on a dead cell.
The other more general conclusion is not to use those batteries with high current over a longer time. The 100 A rating is more short time - maybe better stay below 20 A most of the time.

Yes!!! That is exactly what happened and I reproduced it in a second battery. Exactly.

And once you get to that low of a capacity, even a 26% of rated capacity pack will be at nearly a 1C rate with 20A, so that would not be wise either.

If a temp sensor is not on a connected cell, then the bms safety features go out the window.

Right now everyone on my forum is trying to figure out whats causing these cells to disconnect in all cell packs and all batteries after around 6 years. It is consistent in 100% of packs.

Some people have been saying the nickel sheets cause current sharing issues because they are simply pressed together with plastic. This could cause the CID to trip, but if anyone here has any idea, please share it because I am trying to figure this out still.

[EEVblog]

Lawsuit update

[thm_w]

Dakota that they bought also doesn't look great either: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/can-someone-please-sell-me-on-dakota-lithium-what-am-i-missing.67570/

I do not, but I did start building circuits when I was 9 and coding at 12 and I have built various types of robots including animatronic systems and robotic arms. I went to school for medicine but then was disabled from a nerve disorder and had to drop out. I had the best grades recorded in my school before that, and won the robotics competition and science fair.

I actually learned a lot from this forum years ago and I cannot log into my old account. I have a lot to learn and am always learning more everyday. I have calibrated and certified test equipment now and you can download my data yourself. If I say something stupid, let me know. I want to learn. I love electronics even though I was never formally trained.

Yeah I don't mean it as a criticism at all, just a possible explanation. I have no issue with what I've seen on your channel.
Given your wider audience it makes sense to not go into deep details in most cases, and focus on the real world effect.

[Siwastaja]

Some people have been saying the nickel sheets cause current sharing issues because they are simply pressed together with plastic. This could cause the CID to trip

That's a very strong hypothesis. Paralleling cells is good practice and safe, but it requires top-notch, similar-resistance connectivity between the cells if currents are going to be high. The "press together" design is horrific; intermittent connections that come and go are worst even at low currents because cells can drift to different state-of-charge and when they reconnect, nearly unlimited current flows, and what's worse, that's charging current from the perspective of lower-voltage cell. Instant self-destruction.

In a paralleled design where N is just ~dozen max, design must rely on any CIDs or PTCs never triggering because that causes a cascade failure. Now arguably if you put, say, 60 cells in parallel like Tesla did in their first generation pack designs (before their cell customizations), then one or two cells getting disabled by CID is not going to cascade because current seen by other cells rise only marginally.

[Psi]

The "press together" design is horrific;

The plastic. Yeah, it's batshit crazy.
Like torquing down your engine head bolts onto a gasket made of gallium and expecting them to stay tight.

[Renate]

Like torquing down your engine head bolts onto a gasket made of gallium and expecting them to stay tight.

Engine head bolts are expensive. Can't you just use tie wraps?

[mtwieg]

Great point and I was super confused by this as well until I looked at the data and then reproduced this exact same event in another battery. So what we are seeing here is a cascade effect. The more cells that are lost, the more current going through the remaining cells. One by one they disconnect with the CID in the top of the cell.

Here is my graph of before and after in a second battery to reproduce this: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/12x-battleborn-batteries-w-9-years-of-service.127226/post-1870621

I post whatever I find and then we argue about it on the forum. I have the graphs for both tests, for both batteries.

Ah okay, I guess that could explain why you reported capacities >26% in one video, then saw <15% in the next. Some more cells probably went open circuit in between due to your testing.

One thing I screwed up is saying IR was 0. I should have said OL or something else. I did mess that up.

btw what instrument do you use to measure ESR of large cells/batteries? Looks like some Finisri box, but with only two leads. I would assume a decent ESR reading would require a four-lead measurement.

And what was wrong with the solder test? That has been mentioned a lot. And of course it is low resistance. Did you see my other crimping videos where I measured voltage drop across something like 40 different cables I made? what was wrong with the tests? I am here to learn

I don't think anything was wrong with the resistance test itself. But why did you do it if you were just going to handwave it away at the end of the video? 

Lawsuit update

Here's my 2c advice: There's obviously a ton of issues you could go after Dragonfly for, but I recommend just focusing on the ones directly relevant to Dragonfly's complaint (not sure what those are, since you say the amended it). Dumping too much info on a judge/jury might just confuse or frustrate them, which isn't good for you.

[PlainName]

There's obviously a ton of issues you could go after Dragonfly for, but I recommend just focusing on the ones directly relevant to Dragonfly's complaint

Wouldn't showing that the complainant ignores best practice as a matter of course in other areas also harden the basis of the defence against their claim since they couldn't shrug it off and as a one-off issue?

Looks like some Finisri box, but with only two leads.

Actually a 4-wire lead - they just make the leads with two wires in one sheath to improve handling (and looks).

[errolprowse]

Some people have been saying the nickel sheets cause current sharing issues because they are simply pressed together with plastic. This could cause the CID to trip

That's a very strong hypothesis. Paralleling cells is good practice and safe, but it requires top-notch, similar-resistance connectivity between the cells if currents are going to be high. The "press together" design is horrific; intermittent connections that come and go are worst even at low currents because cells can drift to different state-of-charge and when they reconnect, nearly unlimited current flows, and what's worse, that's charging current from the perspective of lower-voltage cell. Instant self-destruction.

In a paralleled design where N is just ~dozen max, design must rely on any CIDs or PTCs never triggering because that causes a cascade failure. Now arguably if you put, say, 60 cells in parallel like Tesla did in their first generation pack designs (before their cell customizations), then one or two cells getting disabled by CID is not going to cascade because current seen by other cells rise only marginally.

Absolutely. And I wonder how well these cells are matched before they are put into these parallel packs. Yeah, the press together is horrid. Their other pack does not even have mechanical connection between their cells packs and there are many failures with that design. I had one vent in my backyard, and I know an individual in hawaii with two failed packs in a single day.

I have noticed that the internal resistance is all over the place after you stop charging or discharging. I think this is because the current is still moving between the cells because there is a current sharing issue. With prismatic packs with only 4 cells instead of 120 cells, the ir is very consistent when you stop charging or discharging. Yes exactly! And there is neoprene pushing the packs together. As with all plastics, it will lose its rebound effect over time. Add in some high ambient temps and that pressure on the electrical connection is reduced. Game changer battery is the worst in this regard. They use the actual case to hold the electrical connections together. This is probably why I found arcing in a pack after only 1.5 years of use.

Oh good point about drift at soc extremes.

Yes very true about the tesla packs. And those were matched with high quality cells. The cells they use are UL listed but that does not mean much these days. I cannot find any high performance cells in the size cell they sell. And going by the labels in packs I open, they have multiple suppliers.

Great point and I was super confused by this as well until I looked at the data and then reproduced this exact same event in another battery. So what we are seeing here is a cascade effect. The more cells that are lost, the more current going through the remaining cells. One by one they disconnect with the CID in the top of the cell.

Here is my graph of before and after in a second battery to reproduce this: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/12x-battleborn-batteries-w-9-years-of-service.127226/post-1870621

I post whatever I find and then we argue about it on the forum. I have the graphs for both tests, for both batteries.

Ah okay, I guess that could explain why you reported capacities >26% in one video, then saw <15% in the next. Some more cells probably went open circuit in between due to your testing.

One thing I screwed up is saying IR was 0. I should have said OL or something else. I did mess that up.

btw what instrument do you use to measure ESR of large cells/batteries? Looks like some Finisri box, but with only two leads. I would assume a decent ESR reading would require a four-lead measurement.

And what was wrong with the solder test? That has been mentioned a lot. And of course it is low resistance. Did you see my other crimping videos where I measured voltage drop across something like 40 different cables I made? what was wrong with the tests? I am here to learn

I don't think anything was wrong with the resistance test itself. But why did you do it if you were just going to handwave it away at the end of the video? 

Lawsuit update

Here's my 2c advice: There's obviously a ton of issues you could go after Dragonfly for, but I recommend just focusing on the ones directly relevant to Dragonfly's complaint (not sure what those are, since you say the amended it). Dumping too much info on a judge/jury might just confuse or frustrate them, which isn't good for you.

Yes Finisri but it is a four lead probe, even the clamp one. I have tested both of their probes and they are consistent results and I have two meters. I do not know of a battery ir meter that has two wire probe. They are all four wire probes.

What do you mean by handwave it away at the end of the video? I do not know what to expect when I make my videos. Oh! You mean the low resistance. Yeah it was impressive! That was a cool result. But solder cannot be relied on for large cables. Just because it is a low resistance connection does not mean it is strong or can handle heat. Crimp is going to win and why it is industry standard for 40 cable.

Ok understood. I am just trying to figure out the disconnecting cell part. The other stuff in the lawsuit, dragonfly energy is being sued for currently. The president of the PVICC who helped created multiple UL standards is suing them. The thermal failsafe thing is so easy to disprove. I just want to find out why these things have meltdowns and cascade failure/loss of capacity. It is quite literally in 100% of batteries I have tested, and every single cell pack I have found. The cell venting is terrifying. Actually the cell venting video is in the lawsuit. I still do not know what to do with that battery. Really nasty stuff.

If anyone has any idea why these cells disconnect I am all ears. I love this forum and have learned a lot from in years back. Lots of smart people here. I just do tests in my shop and share what I find.

[tszaboo]

Lawsuit update

Talking about an ongoing lawsuit on Youtube is quite dumb though. Not only are you giving away your position, your defense, but you also open up additional issues where they can attack you. Instead of just a defense based purely on technical issues, now you have to defend that you didn't want to damage the company based on this video.

It's like trying to outsmart a cop, who arrested a hundred people during his career, first time you are getting arrested.

[Freesurfer]

Talking about an ongoing lawsuit on Youtube is quite dumb though. Not only are you giving away your position, your defense, but you also open up additional issues where they can attack you. Instead of just a defense based purely on technical issues, now you have to defend that you didn't want to damage the company based on this video.

It's like trying to outsmart a cop, who arrested a hundred people during his career, first time you are getting arrested.

Yes, this is good advice. Never be over-confident no matter how sure you are about your case. There is an Australian youtuber called Karl Jobst who mostly covers gaming related topics and scandals, who was sued for defamation. He was extremely confident that he would win the lawsuit, almost mocking the person he was sued by at times. But in the end he ended up losing.

Another piece of wisdom I was told early on in my career is that judges don't always judge on what makes sense on the surface. On the surface a case may seem obvious and there's a side that seemingly deserves to win, and another that deserves to lose. And you would think that a judge always brings justice and sides with the one with good intentions just like some robin hood story. But once everything comes down to evidence and legal technicalities, the result may not be what is expected. The judge doesn't think in terms of a robin hood story

[Langdon]

TO OP:

Lay low, stick to facts.
Do NOT present opinions.

And shut up before you lose millions of dollars.

Don't be cocky; be cautious (but brave).

[mtwieg]

Talking about an ongoing lawsuit on Youtube is quite dumb though.

This is definitely good advice too! Get a good lawyer and listen to them.

Another piece of wisdom I was told early on in my career is that judges don't always judge on what makes sense on the surface. On the surface a case may seem obvious and there's a side that seemingly deserves to win, and another that deserves to lose. And you would think that a judge always brings justice and sides with the one with good intentions just like some robin hood story. But once everything comes down to evidence and legal technicalities, the result may not be what is expected. The judge doesn't think in terms of a robin hood story

Yes, most cases are determined not by "bad guy or good guy" logic, but by esoteric legal matters that only lawyers and jurists will understand. At the end of the day the judge will tell the jury specifically what matters are up for consideration, and what evidence/testimony they are allowed to consider. Even if your videos/testimony convince a jury that the batteries are unsafe, it might not matter in the end. Your lawyer(s) are there to keep you on track.