Author Topic: Power cut in Spain and Portugal  (Read 85778 times)

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Offline rikkitikkitavi

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #625 on: November 24, 2025, 08:04:46 pm »
Most countries are way behind in preparation for a crisis situation. You dont need to be a hard-blown prepper in a homemade bunker shooting at everything in sight.

Some modest preparations are required to achieve quite a prepardness. In Sweden it is a public recommendation, which more or less means that you are own your own for the first 7 days unless you are ill, old or otherwise in requirement of the help and support of public functions such as healthcare or living in a carecenter for some reasons, or have home care.

Most cities, regions etc now prepare and practice dry-runs what to do in case of an external crisis. Restocking of supplies is underway.

But the geist is clear, you have to manage 7 days by yourself. This publication has been sent out to ALL households with an postal adress.

https://www.msb.se/sv/publikationer/om-krisen-eller-kriget-kommer-pa-engelska/

A 24 hour total blackout would probably have quite some negative effect, especially in wintertime but not to the extent that soceity would be reshaped. Getting the grid started again with a lot of asynchronous production can probably be quite a challenge.

Getting a lot of large powerstations that have disconnected and scrammed/stopped  back online is also a challenge but something we have practiced quite a few times in Sweden due to faulty transmission components causing cascading effects, back in the days when we had nothing but inertia in the grid (hydro, thermal and nuclear) or due to the effects of weather.



« Last Edit: November 24, 2025, 08:15:56 pm by rikkitikkitavi »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #626 on: November 24, 2025, 11:04:42 pm »
For this reason, consider installing a well with a mechanical pump,
No can do. If I dig down 2 meters the entire country sinks into the sea.
 
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #627 on: November 25, 2025, 07:57:41 am »
Based on my experience, I recommend maintaining a one-month supply of drinking water and at least a six-month reserve of food. Keep in mind that, in the event of a complete blackout, tap water will become unavailable. For this reason, consider installing a well with a mechanical pump, and be sure to locate the nearest natural spring and familiarize yourself with the routes to reach it — access to potable water is critical for survival.
I recommend living near the open ocean.  You can fish for food, and evaporate sea water to make fresh water.  The sandy soil is also easier to dig into to bury your toilet waste (remember, sewers may not work in a blackout).
« Last Edit: November 25, 2025, 07:59:16 am by Andy Chee »
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #628 on: November 26, 2025, 02:13:25 am »
Based on my experience, I recommend maintaining a one-month supply of drinking water and at least a six-month reserve of food. Keep in mind that, in the event of a complete blackout, tap water will become unavailable. For this reason, consider installing a well with a mechanical pump, and be sure to locate the nearest natural spring and familiarize yourself with the routes to reach it — access to potable water is critical for survival.
I recommend living near the open ocean.  You can fish for food, and evaporate sea water to make fresh water.  The sandy soil is also easier to dig into to bury your toilet waste (remember, sewers may not work in a blackout).

why not a river or lake, fish and freshwater ...

 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #629 on: November 26, 2025, 10:11:56 am »
Getting a lot of large powerstations that have disconnected and scrammed/stopped  back online is also a challenge but something we have practiced quite a few times in Sweden due to faulty transmission components causing cascading effects, back in the days when we had nothing but inertia in the grid (hydro, thermal and nuclear) or due to the effects of weather.
One country will soon have been forced to upgrade to a modern decentralised energy grid. Contrary to the many, many subsidies that have been thrown into that hole with startups and flops.

Considering drinking water, I've been at a pumping station. A nationwide blackout should not interrupt the supply. They have one week of fuel and redundant emergency generators for a reduced pressure. No showering, but still water.
In local outages, contracts for refuelling and portable generators should prolong/restore their capabilities to normal.

However, this project was so heavy on paperwork I doubt it will work in reality.

More troubling is the non-redundant design of the water pipes and sewers. And, we also have pumping stations keeping the land dry, take those out and we swim....
« Last Edit: November 26, 2025, 10:13:57 am by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline rikkitikkitavi

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #630 on: December 14, 2025, 02:33:35 pm »
I doubt you could run a modern potable water production plant for long on diesel generators. Not with everyday full water consumtion.

It is far more than the distribution net pumps, that themselves are a humungous power eater.

To deliver 1 m3 of potable water into the distribution net at a typical pressure of 3 bar requires something akin to 0,1kWh.


Flotation basins, filters, inlet pumps, booster pumps etc etc increase power consumption further. So yes, pressure will be much lower due to lower capacity in the pumping and everything else.

Then you have what comes out in the other end, ie waste water. Most waste water plants would just simply flood in a power out situation as the biological purification would die of rather quickly without agitation and oxygenation. Not to mention ALL pump stations transfering waste water and slurry wherever it needs to go.
 
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #631 on: December 15, 2025, 07:59:55 am »
Based on my experience, I recommend maintaining a one-month supply of drinking water and at least a six-month reserve of food. Keep in mind that, in the event of a complete blackout, tap water will become unavailable. For this reason, consider installing a well with a mechanical pump, and be sure to locate the nearest natural spring and familiarize yourself with the routes to reach it — access to potable water is critical for survival.
I recommend living near the open ocean.  You can fish for food, and evaporate sea water to make fresh water.  The sandy soil is also easier to dig into to bury your toilet waste (remember, sewers may not work in a blackout).

why not a river or lake, fish and freshwater ...
If you have prior knowledge of a lake or river's fish habitat, then yes, that solution is probably ok.

But for someone without any prior knowledge, the open ocean is, from strictly a statistical standpoint, more likely to yield a sustainable supply of catch.

Also, I don't know what animals or humans upstream may have disposed of into the water, so I wouldn't necessarily assume it's "fresh".
« Last Edit: December 15, 2025, 08:01:35 am by Andy Chee »
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #632 on: December 15, 2025, 08:25:50 am »
I recommend living near the open ocean.  You can fish for food, and evaporate sea water to make fresh water.  The sandy soil is also easier to dig into to bury your toilet waste (remember, sewers may not work in a blackout).

You’re seriously underestimating how conditions change during real large-scale blackouts or wartime collapse. You won’t be able to safely leave your home at all without a real risk of being robbed, assaulted, or kidnapped.

Coastlines near oceans or seas would likely be heavily mined, making even approaching or swimming near the shore extremely dangerous. Beaches are typically mined to prevent amphibious landings, while naval and anti-ship mines would be present in coastal waters, turning the entire near-shore zone into a high-risk area.

The same applies to forests: they are likely to be contaminated with anti-personnel mines, making activities like foraging or hunting effectively suicidal. Even routine actions, such as walking to a nearby store, become unsafe when cities are under artillery or rocket fire.

Attempting to flee an urban area under such conditions is also extremely dangerous — roads become high-risk zones where civilians may be robbed, killed, stripped of vehicles and belongings, or simply fired upon.

Assuming you can casually go outside, fish, dig, and move around freely is extremely unrealistic once law enforcement and basic order break down.


At first glance, living in a sparsely populated settlement may seem safer under such conditions, but this assumption is questionable. Smaller towns (up to roughly 100000 residents) are often reduced to rubble during active hostilities, leaving little or nothing intact. In large cities, the likelihood of total physical destruction may be lower, setting aside the risk of nuclear strikes. However, prolonged power outages and supply disruptions make survival in a major city extremely difficult, while attempting to evacuate during ongoing combat carries a very high risk of injury or death.

I was in a large city during an active military assault, and it is not something anyone would willingly want to experience. Even so, it is difficult for me to say which is safer during a war — a large city or a small one. Nearby smaller cities were completely destroyed, reduced to ruins, while conditions in the large city were also extremely harsh and dangerous. Based on this experience, my only practical recommendation is that, if possible, leaving the country before a war begins is the safest option. Once hostilities start, doing so becomes extremely difficult, especially for men.

In any case, it is advisable to choose housing located far away from any kind of schools, kindergartens, hospitals, major industrial facilities, and political or government buildings, as such sites are more likely to become targets or be affected during hostilities. Ideally, such facilities should be located no closer than approximately 2–3 kilometers from the chosen residence. This is because a bomb detonation at a shorter distance is likely to generate sufficient blast overpressure to shatter windows and even tear window and door frames out entirely. This is particularly critical during winter, as the loss of windows in freezing conditions can quickly make the space uninhabitable due to severe heat loss. It is also important to choose single-story housing located at a safe distance from dense multi-story residential developments.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2025, 09:29:01 am by radiolistener »
 
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Offline tatel

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #633 on: April 28, 2026, 01:38:16 pm »
A year after the power cut, it seems that effectively big operators and NPPs are being blamed for it. Iberdrola, Endesa and Naturgy. They are framed, it looks, for having Almaraz, Trillo, Cofrentes, Ascó and Vandellós NPPs reducing without permisión the amount of reserve energy available and continued infringiment of disponibility commitments.  REE, operatoria of the  grid is alzó blamed by CNMC, apparently forma authorizing in some other cases disponibilty against rulings. Iberdrola and Endesa got so far about 40 confirmed framings, 3 of them of the highest level, and Redeia, REE parent company, got anothe, highest level one.

Three of seven spanish nuclear reactores were offline that day, either forma planned fuel reload or just simply because they were unable to operante at a profit. So much for pronuke crowd here insisting renewables were to blamed.

Writing from muy cell phone, please excuse me forma not getting into more detail. I think filings were published  by CNMC on april 17, 23 and 27. I' pretty sure quite a few people here is able to get these files with this información, if interested. Read it on page 40 of EL DIARIO VASCO today,  april 28
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #634 on: April 28, 2026, 04:37:08 pm »


Three of seven spanish nuclear reactores were offline that day, either forma planned fuel reload or just simply because they were unable to operante at a profit. So much for pronuke crowd here insisting renewables were to blamed.



I am not blaming renewables because i am pronuclear

I am blaming renewables because their bang bang on off code for voltage and frequency limits is the only mechanism by which you can excite a 7hz resonance.

Rotating iron has on the order of a 20 second resonce time not 20 milliseconds
 

Offline tatel

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #635 on: April 28, 2026, 08:30:57 pm »

I am not blaming renewables because i am pronuclear

I am blaming renewables because their bang bang on off code for voltage and frequency limits is the only mechanism by which you can excite a 7hz resonance.

Yeah, whatever.

I am blaming mainstream operators because breaching the contracts is an easy way to cause disaster.

AFAIK nobody else has been officially framed so far.
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #636 on: April 29, 2026, 01:47:44 am »

I am not blaming renewables because i am pronuclear

I am blaming renewables because their bang bang on off code for voltage and frequency limits is the only mechanism by which you can excite a 7hz resonance.

Yeah, whatever.

I am blaming mainstream operators because breaching the contracts is an easy way to cause disaster.

AFAIK nobody else has been officially framed so far.

What is the point of this speculation?
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #637 on: April 29, 2026, 07:58:13 am »


Three of seven spanish nuclear reactores were offline that day, either forma planned fuel reload or just simply because they were unable to operante at a profit. So much for pronuke crowd here insisting renewables were to blamed.



I am not blaming renewables because i am pronuclear

I am blaming renewables because their bang bang on off code for voltage and frequency limits is the only mechanism by which you can excite a 7hz resonance.

Rotating iron has on the order of a 20 second resonce time not 20 milliseconds

We are well aware that you don't let facts ruin a good old speculation, but come on, at this point everyone interested has read some sort of report, possibly even the official one, and the causes are well-known. The train of hallucinating explanations, and getting people to believe them, to support your narrative left ages ago.

Any "7hz resonance" has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, even individuals with their multimeters provided information that the whole ordeal was caused by sustaining and steadily rising overvoltage, no resonance, no frequency instability. Yet, you keep the narrative - not realizing you are just making yourself appear as a clown.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2026, 08:01:08 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #638 on: April 29, 2026, 05:39:24 pm »
at this point everyone interested has read some sort of report, possibly even the official one, and the causes are well-known.

so who got fined?

as for the frequency instability i'm talking about
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lionhirth_what-caused-the-blackout-in-spain-and-portugal-activity-7322931085649018880-FBk6

there are several good hour long youtube links probably already posted in this thread as well you can review.


anyhow, what i'm saying is rotating iron does not produce these problems, never has. the dampening bars in the rotors prevent this nonsense.

anyhow, i mixed up the reciprocal of .15hz. with 7hz.

doesn't change much of anything.

rotatingiron does not produce undampened oscillations of the type described here:
https://lnkd.in/dsR_R4Eu

take a look at figure 7.

power through the 400KV line oscillating between 250MW and 750MW 7 times a minute for 5 minutes. !

why is it no other country has these problems?

so for example, read here
https://www.powermag.com/anatomy-of-a-blackout-findings-from-the-spain-portugal-grid-collapse-final-report/

Quote
Oscillation Episodes Created the Preconditions. While the oscillations did not directly cause the blackout, they shaped the system state in which it occurred. The measures taken to dampen them—reducing exports and reconnecting lines—changed power flows and raised voltages. The 0.63-Hz forced oscillation was traced to converter-driven instability in a specific area of southern Spain. The absence of power system stabilizers on some large generating units and insufficient damping from existing ones weakened the system’s resilience to the inter-area 0.2-Hz oscillation.

so in short, they try really hard not to blame the bad inverter programming, but ultimately their attempts at mitigating the "converter driven instability" problem caused the cascade of other problems.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2026, 06:02:43 pm by johansen »
 

Offline dietert1

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #639 on: April 29, 2026, 07:53:15 pm »
To me conclusions about the need for "rotating iron" appear strange. I mean whether a generator system has rotating iron isn't the choice of some engineer. Obviously a photovoltaic generator won't have rotating iron, but a wind generator has some.
I think the management of a unified European power system is pretty complex and the blackout in Spain appears of similar character as Victor Orban and his mafia in Hungary. As tatel wrote it looks like some actors violated previous contracts so the blackout may have been invoked by some political group. The political actors may even sit in France, with an attempt to "punish" Spanish photovoltaic production. Probably Spain just needs more/better distribution lines to the rest of Europe.
Here in Brasil - a country as large as whole Europe - electricity is 100% renewable and cheap, previously water, with photovoltaic increasing rapidly. Until now there haven't been major problems with power distribution, except until now all attempts to build underground distribution networks failed.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #640 on: April 29, 2026, 11:12:04 pm »
anyhow, what i'm saying is rotating iron does not produce these problems, never has. the dampening bars in the rotors prevent this nonsense.
Better go on an edit war at wikipedia then:
However, the final report of ENTSO-E of March 2026 declared that "...even with significantly higher inertia values, the loss of system synchronism would not have been avoided, considering the sequence of events".[109] The Chair of the ENSO_E Board of Directors declared "that a system with greater inertia would have faced the same problem" and "that a central part of the explanation shifts towards voltage behaviour and the system's ability to withstand rapid disturbances, rather than towards simplified interpretations based exclusively on inertia."[95]
So reputable sources have worked through your hypothetical of MOAR IRON, and it still doesn't fix it.
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #641 on: April 30, 2026, 03:12:03 am »
but a wind generator has some.
I think the management of a unified European power system is pretty complex and the blackout in Spain appears of similar character as Victor Orban and his mafia in Hungary. As tatel wrote it looks like some actors violated previous contracts so the blackout may have been invoked by some political group. The political actors may even sit in France, with an attempt to "punish" Spanish photovoltaic production. Probably Spain just needs more/better distribution lines to the rest of Europe.
Here in Brasil - a country as large as whole Europe - electricity is 100% renewable and cheap, previously water, with photovoltaic increasing rapidly. Until now there haven't been major problems with power distribution, except until now all attempts to build underground distribution networks failed.

Regards, Dieter

a lot of wind does not have any inertia because the power conversion is handled by grid following inverters. the only inertia that exists exists in the power range, not in frequency or voltage support. so if the wind turbine gets a call to reduce power output, it takes several seconds to feather the blades out and ramp down the power.

where as if you have a synchronous generator fed from a gear box, you might be able to get plus or minus 50% power output from a .2hz frequency oscillation, as that corresponds to a 1/(50/.2) difference in rpm. where as the inverters don't care, they just keep pushing the megawatts.

as the report notes:
Quote
An additional 208 MW of distributed wind and solar units either ramped down quickly or disconnected for unknown reasons.
if they can't identify how some power ramped down or shut off.. well, you can indeed be concerned about just about every other possibility.

anyhow, what i'm saying is rotating iron does not produce these problems, never has. the dampening bars in the rotors prevent this nonsense.
Better go on an edit war at wikipedia then:
However, the final report of ENTSO-E of March 2026 declared that "...even with significantly higher inertia values, the loss of system synchronism would not have been avoided, considering the sequence of events".[109] The Chair of the ENSO_E Board of Directors declared "that a system with greater inertia would have faced the same problem" and "that a central part of the explanation shifts towards voltage behaviour and the system's ability to withstand rapid disturbances, rather than towards simplified interpretations based exclusively on inertia."[95]
So reputable sources have worked through your hypothetical of MOAR IRON, and it still doesn't fix it.


you're still missing the root cause conclusion of the report:

Quote
Oscillation Episodes Created the Preconditions. While the oscillations did not directly cause the blackout, they shaped the system state in which it occurred. The measures taken to dampen them—reducing exports and reconnecting lines—changed power flows and raised voltages. The 0.63-Hz forced oscillation was traced to converter-driven instability in a specific area of southern Spain. The absence of power system stabilizers on some large generating units and insufficient damping from existing ones weakened the system’s resilience to the inter-area 0.2-Hz oscillation.


When i pointed out that a broken wire is not what ultimately caused the francis scott key bridge to collapse...

lots of folks said yes it did.

when in reality, that broken wire was the last "hole in the Swiss cheese" -that we know of. you could blame the water current flowing that night too.

in this case, the first hole in the swiss cheese model of failure is the "converter induced instability" -which should have never existed. then they play games with transmission lines to try and get rid of it, pushing the voltage up tripping solar offline. then the rest of the cascade.


so for example:
Quote
From 12:32:00 p.m. onwards, voltages at numerous nodes began rising. About 500 MW of large renewable generation in Spain reduced output, and because these plants operated in fixed power factor mode, their reactive power absorption dropped proportionally, further boosting voltage

why the hell are they operating renewables in fixed power factor mode?

with each generation unit that tripped off, voltage kept climbing. does.. that make any sense?

and again:
Quote
The high-voltage direct-current (HVDC) line to France, still pushing power in constant-power mode, was the last connection to sever at 12:33:24 p.m. All system parameters collapsed.

constant power mode.....
is fine when your system is stable.
which it wasn't.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2026, 03:30:00 am by johansen »
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #642 on: April 30, 2026, 06:30:41 am »
...
why the hell are they operating renewables in fixed power factor mode?
...
Most small production units are in fixed power factor mode. I believe you can expect any type B or lower to be constant power unless otherwise required by the DNO.
Higher types should have a U-Q/Pmax-profile to import/export a certain factor of reactive power per voltage.

This means that if you have scale, say hundreds of small solar, wind, storage or CHP (gas), those are all B and will operate fixed power unless the DNO has arranged other ways.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=OJ:JOL_2016_112_R_0001
 

Offline tatel

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #643 on: April 30, 2026, 12:49:28 pm »
so who got fined?

So far nobody got fined. Mainstream operators are on the way, though, because they breached availability contracts. Iberdrola, Endesa and also REE. Endesa spread disinformation saying to his own workers the cause was a wild fire in southern France. Then, Endesa workers were telling that hoax to people, including me personally. Of course, the big fishes in Endesa knew they had breached that availability commitment they were taking money for. Yet they made up that wildfire hoax to mud the waters.

All in all, about 40 filings, 4 of them could mean a 60 million fine each.

However that remains to be seen. Not holding my breath. These guys are used to get away with murder. In fact, they are used to have policemen committing murder for them, literally. Moreover, Spanish justice has the "Atutxa Doctrine" and the "Botin Doctrine", depending if the guy being framed is a politic rival or a well-known member of the oligarchy.

Anyway, since they had success and electricity prices went up after the power cut, we can be sure they will pay any fines (if necessary) and will laugh all the way to the bank (owned by the very same oligarchs, BTW).

No filings against medium-small operators so far.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2026, 12:53:37 pm by tatel »
 
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Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #644 on: April 30, 2026, 05:11:44 pm »
so who got fined?

So far nobody got fined. Mainstream operators are on the way, though, because they breached availability contracts. Iberdrola, Endesa and also REE. Endesa spread disinformation saying to his own workers the cause was a wild fire in southern France. Then, Endesa workers were telling that hoax to people, including me personally. Of course, the big fishes in Endesa knew they had breached that availability commitment they were taking money for. Yet they made up that wildfire hoax to mud the waters.

All in all, about 40 filings, 4 of them could mean a 60 million fine each.

However that remains to be seen. Not holding my breath. These guys are used to get away with murder. In fact, they are used to have policemen committing murder for them, literally. Moreover, Spanish justice has the "Atutxa Doctrine" and the "Botin Doctrine", depending if the guy being framed is a politic rival or a well-known member of the oligarchy.

Anyway, since they had success and electricity prices went up after the power cut, we can be sure they will pay any fines (if necessary) and will laugh all the way to the bank (owned by the very same oligarchs, BTW).

No filings against medium-small operators so far.

sounds like a great group of people who are going to be right at work fixing the grid's well known instability issues.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #645 on: May 01, 2026, 08:53:10 am »
Do you think possibly the government could reform the operator structure and merge them into one for better oversight
Or is there too much political tension in the various provinces to achieve this?
 

Offline tatel

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #646 on: May 03, 2026, 12:01:31 pm »
Do you think possibly the government could reform the operator structure and merge them into one for better oversight
Or is there too much political tension in the various provinces to achieve this?

Not sure I understand your question. To me, Iberdrola and Endesa would be the operators, and REE would be who installs/maintain the grid. I don't think any government could make Iberdrola and Endesa to merge. That could affect the bottom line of Bank of Santander and BBVA. So, no way in hell that could be done.

Moreover, current government is in a very precarious position from the beginnings, has been unable to approve a budget, and became weaker when some "independentists" from Catalonia, needing to differentiate themselves from the"other catalonian independentist", ceased to support the government. I guess this could be considered "political tension" but I don't think it has anything to do. Oligarchy's bottom line is what matters.

I think Iberdrola and Endesa (or Santander and BBVA) were unhappy with the money they were getting, so they breached the contracts and waited for the power cut, knowing they are too big and have to much power for any government to do anything but to allow bigger prices. Please note there is a case where ex-minister of economy Cristobal Montoro allegedly took bribes, so natural gas operators simply got approved the regulatory laws they themselves wrote. Again, natural gas operators are just proxies of Bank of Santander and BBVA. It is what it is.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #647 on: June 20, 2026, 11:08:16 am »
So reputable sources have worked through your hypothetical of MOAR IRON, and it still doesn't fix it.

Indeed: sometimes simple things are simple. Grid involves voltage regulation and frequency regulation. More inertia improves frequency regulation. Every measurement and every report produced though shows that frequency regulation did not fail, frequency was fine all along: voltage regulation failed. So suggesting improving frequency regulation when that was working perfectly is total insanity - or people talking about stuff they have not the slightest idea about.

I find it pretty interesting that some people still try to push the frequency control narrative, even though it has been shown incorrect - probably the reason is that voltage control is boring and people like johansen just are not aware of it existing. Frequency control is much more visible, because it's much more expensive. Inertia is an expensive way to provide it; batteries provide FCR-N, FCR-D, aFRR, mFRR, FFR and whatnot - actual market systems where operators bid. Voltage regulation is more localized, so an uniform free bidding market is much harder to set up, and on the other hand, owning and operating the voltage regulation equipment (STATCOMs, shunt reactors) is straightforward. So TSOs either operate the equipment directly (own it), or outsource the requirement to generating companies. The irony is that even small PV inverters can easily participate in voltage control - many have this functionality nowadays built-in, the energy requirement for voltage control is like one millionth of that needed for frequency control, so they do this with their DC link capacitors alone. Yet, it's companies like us doing the much more expensive, much fancier frequency control with home battery inverters; involving energy storage in ranges of 20 minutes - 2 hours.

It seems the actual core root cause is poor management - voltage regulation equipment exists (shunt reactors) - but they were mis-operated. Additional equipment (PV inverters) exists, but no one has had guts to require (mandate) or compensate (in a free market) owners for that service.

What people like johansen do not simply get that there is no technical problem, and because there is no, there will not be a a technical solution.

Power cut in Spain and Portugal was caused by lack of operating the existing grid equipment. That's all to it. All that needs to be done is to figure out why these human failures happened, and how to prevent it in the future. Technology is only secondarily relevant: in form of automation, control & monitoring, double-checking human work. None of this will be implemented by a huge mass of rotating iron which johansen wants.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2026, 11:23:15 am by Siwastaja »
 

Online Marco

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #648 on: June 20, 2026, 12:52:15 pm »
A big problem I see with the most rational grid control, hyper-local voltage control, is how it will impact the smallest suppliers/consumers.

It make the cost of your electricity cost depend on location even more so than now (with overvoltage preventing feedin in certain locations already). No national price/opportunity for feedin, will households accept that as fair? You could try to compensate with the local consumption price, but it would get very complex.

PS. I don't think security is much of an issue. Widely distributed small generation and storage is present any way, whether the control is shit or good it offers the opportunity for attacks.

PPS. hyperlocal control with enough home battery storage would approximately double the capacity of the grid, which is pretty relevant in my country.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2026, 12:59:14 pm by Marco »
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #649 on: June 20, 2026, 11:03:33 pm »
None of this will be implemented by a huge mass of rotating iron which johansen wants.

You have not bothered to read and understand what i actually said.

You seem to want to ignore the report

Oscillation Episodes Created the Preconditions. While the oscillations did not directly cause the blackout, they shaped the system state in which it occurred. The measures taken to dampen them—reducing exports and reconnecting lines—changed power flows and raised voltages. The 0.63-Hz forced oscillation was traced to converter-driven instability in a specific area of southern Spain. The absence of power system stabilizers on some large generating units and insufficient damping from existing ones weakened the system’s resilience to the inter-area 0.2-Hz oscillation.
 


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