When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[Simon]

Why would off peak be current limited? In the UK we have 63A single phase supply. I don't know what the connection fees are for what we call an economy 7 tariff. At the end of the day spreading demand over the 24 hours is good for the industry because you con't just turn off many power plants and you can't control the wind so they sell night time electricity cheaply to encourage it as they have to an extent generate it anyway.

[apis]

According to this graph electricity is even more expensive in the UK compared to the Netherlands:
<snip>
From: http://euanmearns.com/energy-prices-in-europe/

That website looks like a pro-oil blog, or at least not particularly reliable, so I wouldn't trust that graph.

It is a random pick from Google which at least had some recent data. There are probably other (even more recent) graphs out there but I doubt they will show something different.

If your standard is a random pick from the internet you can find a graph that proves anything you want. Even if something is technically correct it can still be just as misleading as a lie. (It might be the truth, noting but the truth, but not quite the whole truth).

[DougSpindler]

We call that a sophism.

[nctnico]

According to this graph electricity is even more expensive in the UK compared to the Netherlands:
<snip>
From: http://euanmearns.com/energy-prices-in-europe/

That website looks like a pro-oil blog, or at least not particularly reliable, so I wouldn't trust that graph.

It is a random pick from Google which at least had some recent data. There are probably other (even more recent) graphs out there but I doubt they will show something different.

If your standard is a random pick from the internet you can find a graph that proves anything you want. Even if something is technically correct it can still be just as misleading as a lie. (It might be the truth, noting but the truth, but not quite the whole truth).

Ofcourse I check if there is a valid source, the data is consistent with other sources and the data is recent. The graph I linked to earlier met all those criteria. That should go without saying. There is no use to show & link to numbers which cannot be backed up with solid statistics. Again, feel free to contest the validity of the data with another source. I'm very confident it will say the same because the graph is consistent with other data (in this case electricity prices across Europe) I have seen elsewhere. It is a random pick in a sense that it depends on what Google decides to put in the first 100 results when looking for a graph.

[boffin]

Loving the insanity here.   For those that think Simon is lying, here's a UK power quote for not far from where I previously lived.
just under 18p day rate and just over 8p night rate.

[DougSpindler]

I thought it was nctnico who was being called a liar by forum members.

[nctnico]

Loving the insanity here.   For those that think Simon is lying, here's a UK power quote for not far from where I previously lived.
just under 18p day rate and just over 8p night rate.

Thanks for clarifying without drama. But where is that? Can everyone in the UK get this tarif? What are the conditions?

Edit: It seems SSE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Hydro_Electric) has a lot of genering capacity from hydro power. So my assumption that this rate is for hydro power which makes the electricity cheap turns out to be correct.

[boffin]

Loving the insanity here.   For those that think Simon is lying, here's a UK power quote for not far from where I previously lived.
just under 18p day rate and just over 8p night rate.

Thanks for clarifying without drama. But where is that? Can everyone in the UK get this tarif? What are the conditions?

Edit: It seems SSE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Hydro_Electric) has a lot of genering capacity from hydro power. So my assumption that this rate is for hydro power which makes the electricity cheap turns out to be correct.

it wouldn't be possible for you to quote something without actually reading and understanding it, would it.
1) SSE get 29% of their energy from sun, wind, water (so much for your assumption) -see your linked article
2) It's not just Scotland, it's all of the UK that they serve - see your linked article

Other providers for electricity in the UK all have similar (+/- 20%) rates of around 20p/day, 10p/night, and the postal code I quoted this for was actually the south coast of the UK, just about as far from Scotland as you can get

I'm in Canada, yet I can do the research as to what UK customers pay.  It appears all you do is find the highest (or lowest) number that suits your narrative, and quote it without reference.

[nctnico]

No, I looked at an address in London. It would have been easy for Simon to just show the numbers like you did. Yet I don't quite get why I can't get the low rates you write about in London. As I wrote before: there is no use to cherry pick the highest numbers in a discussion and neither is cherry picking the lowest numbers.

[george80]

Why would off peak be current limited?

Because its a domestic supply for domestic purposes such as water heating, Running Pool pumps , bore pumps and a couple of other prescribed relatively low wattage ( as in NOT 20Kw industrial ) type household type loads.

There are other controlled load rates for higher output as would be connected to a vehicle which are cheaper than standard rate but more expensive than domestic off peak.  There is also in some areas a controlled load rate that is available through the day  but is switched on by the power cos at no set time but rather has a minimum of 4 hours availability... at whatever times they choose.

63A x 240V is only 15Kw.  Not exactly massive power input for charging and electric.  If you wanted to hook up any circuit over 32A ( 7.3 Kw) here atm you would HAVE to go 3 phase because of line balancing issues which they are big on now. Most new homes are also only being wired for 42A supply and the loads are being calculated based on the circuits on the board as to whether  3 Phase must be connected which isn't cheap.

If you have Ducted AC, Electric appliances and a pool, You'll definitely be up for another few grand.  If the place is existing and you want to go from  single to 3 Phase, best you have $5K  under the pillow...... IF they deem the transformer servicing your street has sufficient capacity.
If not, you will be required to pay for the upgrade even though it will service multiple people in the street.

Exactly what happened to a mate when wanting to upgrade his supply.  No capacity left in the street but we can install a new transformer for you for a bit over $70 Grand. It is far from an uncommon occurrence even with homes being the last ones in the street to be built.

What EV do you have?

[george80]

One thing I noticed when researching plans here ( Effing " Plans", who came up with that BS??)  is that nearly every billing scam with a solar feed in is single rate. IE, NO Off peak. You are screwed over for the same rate anytime you use power.

They giveth with one hand and tear back with the other.  The ones that do have off peak, if you dig hard enough to find them, have a much lower  feed in rate for solar.  They make effort to Fk you over either way.

A hidden cost of EV charging. By being able to charge at a lower rate at night, your solar generated power going back to the grid when the car is at work or out with you during the day would loose money over what it would with a single rate when you could heat the hot water and run the pool pump during the day using your own power.
It's a hidden cost that won't show up on any bill ( how convenient for the power cos) but you will be paying none the less.

The story is never as simple and straight forward as it appears. 

[DougSpindler]

One thing I noticed when researching plans here ( Effing " Plans", who came up with that BS??)  is that nearly every billing scam with a solar feed in is single rate. IE, NO Off peak. You are screwed over for the same rate anytime you use power.

They giveth with one hand and tear back with the other.  The ones that do have off peak, if you dig hard enough to find them, have a much lower  feed in rate for solar.  They make effort to Fk you over either way.

A hidden cost of EV charging. By being able to charge at a lower rate at night, your solar generated power going back to the grid when the car is at work or out with you during the day would loose money over what it would with a single rate when you could heat the hot water and run the pool pump during the day using your own power.
It's a hidden cost that won't show up on any bill ( how convenient for the power cos) but you will be paying none the less.

The story is never as simple and straight forward as it appears.

Not so in the US.  We get to "sell" power to the power at peak times and buy the electricity back the same day for 400% less.  But there is a catch....  If at the end of the year we have any energy credit dollars, we have to give those kWhrs/energy credit dollars to the power company for free. 

The advantage for a consumer who consumes most of their electricity at night is they need far fewer panels.  But for those who have a air conditioner and pool pump they run during the day they are screwed.  They would need maybe three to four times the number of solar panels to maybe cover the amount of electricity they use per year.

I've received quotes were the solar designer has me at the end of 25 years giving $125,000 of free electricity to the power company for free.

[Simon]

No, I looked at an address in London. It would have been easy for Simon to just show the numbers like you did. Yet I don't quite get why I can't get the low rates you write about in London. As I wrote before: there is no use to cherry pick the highest numbers in a discussion and neither is cherry picking the lowest numbers.

I did! I showed you my actual bill!

[boffin]

No, I looked at an address in London. It would have been easy for Simon to just show the numbers like you did. Yet I don't quite get why I can't get the low rates you write about in London. As I wrote before: there is no use to cherry pick the highest numbers in a discussion and neither is cherry picking the lowest numbers.

Go to http://uswitch.com/gas-electricity/

• Postal Code: E17 7TA (North London), or SW11 6BZ (Clapham, SW London), or basically anywhere in London or outside of London (B10 9BT for a random B'ham postal code)
• Electricity only - no gas
• Pick any supplier
• Economy 7 meter (this is the day night meter)  - YES
• Pick the standard plan (there will be cheaper ones too)

and you always end up with approx (+/-20%) 0.20/day, 0.10/night; just like Simon told you, over and over.

[george80]

Not so in the US.

This seems to be a sticking point some refuse to accept especially when it does not favor the POV they want to push.  Things are different all over and what works ( or does not work) in one place does not mean it's the same all over.

The  scam's I was looking at this morning are either 8 or 12C  solar feed in and 23 to 33 c when you buy from the scammers.
The deals you have are way beyond anything available here, not even in the same ball park.
What you have is a dream compared to anything we can get and while it might seem unfair to you to have to give the power cos the credits, to me the deal still sounds fantastic!

Because my systems is bootleg, the power is wasted all together when I make more than I use. I have to shut the inverters off so I don't go into credit or I will get a please explain and a smartarse meter.  I know you love them and I can see why but they are merely a tool for fking us over every which way here.

I would be happy to give any excess back and I could then point out something else I do for the environment that 99% of the green whingers can't match but they are to greedy so in the one case which would be way beyond insignificance, they screw themselves over.
Then again, I have been talking to a few people from different forums that are in teh same boat here and want to do their own systems the same way. 

I'm sure a LOT of people wouldn't care what they gave back if they could get a nil or good as bill.

Given our impending dire power crisis looming over the next few years and maybe 5-10, I predict a drastic turn around in policy from the power co's . The whole solar thing was started in the first place here because the grid was a shambles and the advent of Cheap AC and the uptake thereof had put huge pressure on the grid it couldn't meet. Solar was the stopgap measure to reduce the burden.  Unfortunately they let the cat out the bag which will never go back in although they are trying to tie it's feet together best they can.

Now we are heading back to the same, or actually far worse shortages, taking the hobbles off rooftop solar may be something they look at so the grid doesn't melt in a steaming pile and it would also be a way of being able to meet the green targets both sides are riding on for our up coming election.

Will all depend on how bad things get and how much pressure is bought on the pollies and their power co masters to keep the lights on.


 We get to "sell" power to the power at peak times and buy the electricity back the same day for 400% less.  But there is a catch....  If at the end of the year we have any energy credit dollars, we have to give those kWhrs/energy credit dollars to the power company for free. 

The advantage for a consumer who consumes most of their electricity at night is they need far fewer panels.  But for those who have a air conditioner and pool pump they run during the day they are screwed.  They would need maybe three to four times the number of solar panels to maybe cover the amount of electricity they use per year.

I've received quotes were the solar designer has me at the end of 25 years giving $125,000 of free electricity to the power company for free.
[/quote]

[ahbushnell]

No, I am calling a liar a liar! nctnico is a liar! fact. He has repeatedly stated that what he says is correct despite me explaining that his prices are wrong ond i know they are because I pay for electricity in the UK! He has refused to say he is wrong and took a long time to drop the matter after many challenges and his excuse is that he found this data on the internet. We know what misinformation breeds and it will not be tolerated here!

Sounds rantish to me. 

[ahbushnell]

One thing I noticed when researching plans here ( Effing " Plans", who came up with that BS??)  is that nearly every billing scam with a solar feed in is single rate. IE, NO Off peak. You are screwed over for the same rate anytime you use power.

They giveth with one hand and tear back with the other.  The ones that do have off peak, if you dig hard enough to find them, have a much lower  feed in rate for solar.  They make effort to Fk you over either way.

A hidden cost of EV charging. By being able to charge at a lower rate at night, your solar generated power going back to the grid when the car is at work or out with you during the day would loose money over what it would with a single rate when you could heat the hot water and run the pool pump during the day using your own power.
It's a hidden cost that won't show up on any bill ( how convenient for the power cos) but you will be paying none the less.

The story is never as simple and straight forward as it appears.

Not so in the US.  We get to "sell" power to the power at peak times and buy the electricity back the same day for 400% less.  But there is a catch....  If at the end of the year we have any energy credit dollars, we have to give those kWhrs/energy credit dollars to the power company for free. 

That's not correct in San Diego.  They will buy it back at wholesale rates. 

[DougSpindler]

One thing I noticed when researching plans here ( Effing " Plans", who came up with that BS??)  is that nearly every billing scam with a solar feed in is single rate. IE, NO Off peak. You are screwed over for the same rate anytime you use power.

They giveth with one hand and tear back with the other.  The ones that do have off peak, if you dig hard enough to find them, have a much lower  feed in rate for solar.  They make effort to Fk you over either way.

A hidden cost of EV charging. By being able to charge at a lower rate at night, your solar generated power going back to the grid when the car is at work or out with you during the day would loose money over what it would with a single rate when you could heat the hot water and run the pool pump during the day using your own power.
It's a hidden cost that won't show up on any bill ( how convenient for the power cos) but you will be paying none the less.

The story is never as simple and straight forward as it appears.

Not so in the US.  We get to "sell" power to the power at peak times and buy the electricity back the same day for 400% less.  But there is a catch....  If at the end of the year we have any energy credit dollars, we have to give those kWhrs/energy credit dollars to the power company for free. 

That's not correct in San Diego.  They will buy it back at wholesale rates.

So can you even trade kWhrs?  If you have an extra one can you "loan" it to the San Diego power company until you need it say at night?  Some of PG&E rate plans are like that.  (PG&E has 9 different residential rate plans.)  The newest rate plans have PG&E buying extra electricity from residential customers at the current (meaning time of day) retail rate.  Meaning during mid-day if I have one extra kWhr I can sell it to PG&E for $0.50.  Later the same day I can buy that kWhr back for just  $0.12.  The $0.38 difference is goes into my energy credit "bank" so I can buy kWhrs at a later time when I need them.  But I have to pay current price.  Not sure about San Diego, but here in PG&E territory our rate changes 5 times every weekday and 3 times on weekends.  In the summer prices for peak times increase by 40% or $0.12 per kWhr.



 

 

[ahbushnell]

One thing I noticed when researching plans here ( Effing " Plans", who came up with that BS??)  is that nearly every billing scam with a solar feed in is single rate. IE, NO Off peak. You are screwed over for the same rate anytime you use power.

They giveth with one hand and tear back with the other.  The ones that do have off peak, if you dig hard enough to find them, have a much lower  feed in rate for solar.  They make effort to Fk you over either way.

A hidden cost of EV charging. By being able to charge at a lower rate at night, your solar generated power going back to the grid when the car is at work or out with you during the day would loose money over what it would with a single rate when you could heat the hot water and run the pool pump during the day using your own power.
It's a hidden cost that won't show up on any bill ( how convenient for the power cos) but you will be paying none the less.

The story is never as simple and straight forward as it appears.

Not so in the US.  We get to "sell" power to the power at peak times and buy the electricity back the same day for 400% less.  But there is a catch....  If at the end of the year we have any energy credit dollars, we have to give those kWhrs/energy credit dollars to the power company for free. 

That's not correct in San Diego.  They will buy it back at wholesale rates.

So can you even trade kWhrs?  If you have an extra one can you "loan" it to the San Diego power company until you need it say at night?  Some of PG&E rate plans are like that.  (PG&E has 9 different residential rate plans.)  The newest rate plans have PG&E buying extra electricity from residential customers at the current (meaning time of day) retail rate.  Meaning during mid-day if I have one extra kWhr I can sell it to PG&E for $0.50.  Later the same day I can buy that kWhr back for just  $0.12.  The $0.38 difference is goes into my energy credit "bank" so I can buy kWhrs at a later time when I need them.  But I have to pay current price.  Not sure about San Diego, but here in PG&E territory our rate changes 5 times every weekday and 3 times on weekends.  In the summer prices for peak times increase by 40% or $0.12 per kWhr.

That's not available in San Diego.  There are some people with Solar that are grandfathered in for that for 5 years.  A friend of mine has that. 

[nctnico]

No, I looked at an address in London. It would have been easy for Simon to just show the numbers like you did. Yet I don't quite get why I can't get the low rates you write about in London. As I wrote before: there is no use to cherry pick the highest numbers in a discussion and neither is cherry picking the lowest numbers.

Go to http://uswitch.com/gas-electricity/

• Postal Code: E17 7TA (North London), or SW11 6BZ (Clapham, SW London), or basically anywhere in London or outside of London (B10 9BT for a random B'ham postal code)
• Electricity only - no gas
• Pick any supplier
• Economy 7 meter (this is the day night meter)  - YES
• Pick the standard plan (there will be cheaper ones too)

and you always end up with approx (+/-20%) 0.20/day, 0.10/night; just like Simon told you, over and over.

I'll give it another try later. I've learned not to take what people say for granted without being able to verify for myself.

[Simon]

No, I looked at an address in London. It would have been easy for Simon to just show the numbers like you did. Yet I don't quite get why I can't get the low rates you write about in London. As I wrote before: there is no use to cherry pick the highest numbers in a discussion and neither is cherry picking the lowest numbers.

Go to http://uswitch.com/gas-electricity/

• Postal Code: E17 7TA (North London), or SW11 6BZ (Clapham, SW London), or basically anywhere in London or outside of London (B10 9BT for a random B'ham postal code)
• Electricity only - no gas
• Pick any supplier
• Economy 7 meter (this is the day night meter)  - YES
• Pick the standard plan (there will be cheaper ones too)

and you always end up with approx (+/-20%) 0.20/day, 0.10/night; just like Simon told you, over and over.

I'll give it another try later. I've learned not to take what people say for granted without being able to verify for myself.

No you are just stiring shit up. Several of us in the UK now have told you the facts and proven them to you and still you refuse! why would we lie? oh yea, it takes one to know one. You have constantly lied in this thread to support your views and you think every one else does the same. Electricity prices across the UK are broadly all the same. If you go to a large supplier they will keep it the same throughout generally as they are big enough to average it out. The smaller suppliers will likely bias their prices by region based on what the local power station and distribution company charge but the differences are usually just a couple of pence. We have been open and honest that YOU can independently verify these figures.

Maybe you should concentrate on explaining to us how ICE is more efficient than electric, I'm sure you have some dodgy website you can use as proof!

[george80]

So can you even trade kWhrs?  If you have an extra one can you "loan" it to the San Diego power company until you need it say at night?  Some of PG&E rate plans are like that.  (PG&E has 9 different residential rate plans.)  The newest rate plans have PG&E buying extra electricity from residential customers at the current (meaning time of day) retail rate.  Meaning during mid-day if I have one extra kWhr I can sell it to PG&E for $0.50.  Later the same day I can buy that kWhr back for just  $0.12.  The $0.38 difference is goes into my energy credit "bank" so I can buy kWhrs at a later time when I need them.  But I have to pay current price.  Not sure about San Diego, but here in PG&E territory our rate changes 5 times every weekday and 3 times on weekends.  In the summer prices for peak times increase by 40% or $0.12 per kWhr.


/quote]

Your power deals sound so good it makes me wonder how the power cos stay in business!

Then again, solar setups you pay $25K for we pay a fifth of that.
You can get 6.6Kw worth of panels with a 5 Kw inverter for $4-6K here all day long.

[george80]

Maybe you should concentrate on explaining to us how ICE is more efficient than electric, I'm sure you have some dodgy website you can use as proof!

As many times as I too have butted heads with Nico, I have to agree with him, efficiency means nothing and cost of fueling the thing is not the be all and end all either.   It's the overall cost of ownership that counts. Here the car magazines  do that comparison all the time and from the many I have read, it's very often NOT the most fuel efficent that are the cheapest to won and run.

I could probably make an ICE that is more efficient than an EV by double but if it costs a Million dollars a unit to produce, what's the point?
Could probably Double the efficiency of EVs too but again, if they are uneconomic to produce, it's  a waste of time.

There is a LOT more to EV ownership costs than just the price you pay to recharge the things  and while they may be cheaper to run in some places, they are not cheaper to run in ALL places.

Cost is something blown out of proportion by the EV crowd.
 I could have bought a MUCH cheaper house and paid half of what I did just under 2 years ago or less but I have no desire to live in a $900K shitbox on a pocket handkerchief of land.  I could buy a car much cheaper to run than what my wife drives now but running cost is not an issue for us.  She wants something comfortable, something that suits her to fetch shopping etc, she can get in and drive up the country with plenty of power to pass anything she wants and she likes driving.
Being happy with what she has is the main factor.

She doesn't want some matchbox on wheels even though there are plenty that would use half the fuel of the vehicle she has.

Running cost may be the biggest factor to some people but it's not a big deal to others.  Like my father, always eats when he goes out at the most exy restaurant in town. As he says, I couldn't give shit what it costs, I can afford any meal I want and what I want is one I can enjoy not one I wish I had enjoyed.

In any case, NO EV will ever be cheaper to run than my big old diesel 2.5 ton 4WD that on a real good run gets 10 L/ 100 km. 14-18 /100 when I'm punting the thing around like a sports car.
Efficiency is irrelevant, it's still going to be cheaper to run than any EV out there ever will be anywhere in the world. 
 

[Simon]

Well from what I see most EV's are quoted as 200-300Wh per mile. On that count they are cheap given the actual factual costs of electricity that now you can generate yourself if you want. Of course you have the battery cost and like I said based on my calculations I break even at 7000 mile per year if i pay £70/month on the battery. EV's are more expensive to buy yes, you can also get some real cheap ones second hand here. I bought a 4 year old petrol for £8000, I could have bought a 2 year old EV for £4000. Granted not the latest and with only a 60 mile range but plenty to get me to work now an I see my fuel costs double because of the increasing congestion around here now.

Oh and since my last check petrol has gone up. Diesels are no longer cheap if you want a clean one. All of the advantages have been wiped out by the added fuel needed to run the cleanup systems and hence the recent scandal.

[george80]

Sorry to be another one to doubt you but I would be amazed if in fact a battery can save and not cost you especially given your power prices.
Maybe in the UK batteries are subsidized to half the cost of what the rest of the world pays but if you are talking a commercial battery pack not a DIY one, they would have to be exceptionaly cheap to have any worthwhile payback time if at all.

What sort of EV do you have?