-
EDIT 4: To summarize:
I purchased a demo unit from a VE authorized reseller;
The item was not intended to be sold and I was cheated;
VE said they can't do anything to my case regarding their authorized reseller;
I will need to solve this by myself.
EDIT 3: Added my comments to Mr. Turemen answer.
EDIT 2: I included the Mr. Turemen answer after my description. Thanks for answering Mr. Turemen!
EDIT: Vision Engineering corrected me and the seller was not a Vision Engineering's representative, but a Vision Engineering non-exclusive reseller. In they words:
"SELLER_NAME is NOT a representative of Vision Engineering (VE), but they were a non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil."
Hello!
As I choosed to buy a Vision Engineering Mantis Elite stereo microscope after watch the excellent Dave's review, I think it is fair to alert here what happened with me.
I am from Brazil and I purchased a Mantis Elite plus 3 lenses (4x, 8x and 15x) from a brazilian Vision's representative. The equipment was advertised as DEMO in perfect working condition, like new.
In the same day I received the equipment, I reported back to the Vision's representative that the optical was infested of fungus, in awful conditions.
Then I sent the equipment back and a series of problems followed, from unanswered e-mails to careless maintenance (missing parts, leaving cleaning product in the equipment).
After more than 4 months trying to fix the equipment with the representative without success, I escalated the problem to Vision Engineering.
In direct contact with Vision Engineering UK, we talked during more than 2 weeks detailing the problem, presenting documentation of the entire process like a print of the advertisement, proof of the bank transfer, invoice from Vision's representative, pictures of the problem, etc.
Now I received an answer from Vision Engineering UK that says something like: "We understand your reasons but you purchased from a Vision's representative, not from Vision Engineering itself. So sorry, we can't do nothing to you."
So be carefull with Vision Engineering representatives because if one day you are cheated, Vision may not stand behind them as ocourred with me.
Regards,
Rodrigo.
Here is the Mr. Turemen answer, he is the Vision Engineering sales manager (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frustrating-after-sale-vision-engineering-mantis-elite/msg1049975/#msg1049975):
Hello everyone. I have not been able to read every single post yet, however I can tell there are mixed opinions on the forum since the original message has been posted. As the Vision Engineering sales manager covering the territory, I’d like to clarify a few points made here. First of all let me make it clear that this is not an official response from Vision Engineering Ltd. I am writing on my own behalf for the sole purpose of updating those who read these forums with “our” side of the story.
rodpp, who wrote the original post, was kind enough to alert us that he had been sold a defective Mantis Elite microscope by a third party that was affiliated with Vision Engineering (VE). We took the matter very seriously, because the said third party never actually bought or sold any VE products in Brazil.
Now let me open brackets here and provide a little bit of background information… VE used to have a representative in Brazil in the past. When he left the company more than a year ago, he left some demonstration equipment that he had in his possession with a number of re-sellers that we worked with at the time, because VE did not have own premises in Brazil for storing the equipment. In addition, we had provided some of these companies with demo equipment free of charge in the past, hoping that these would help our re-sellers collect more orders. Note that I am talking about non-commercial demo equipment, not commercial goods for resale. Coincidentally, the “ex-demo Mantis Elite set” that rodpp has been sold was identical to the one that our former representative had left with the re-seller in question. Close brackets.
When the issue was reported to us, the first thought was that the re-seller had sold our demo equipment without notifying us. As you would appreciate, a significant amount of investigation is required before anyone can be accused of mischief. Following on from his original complaint, rodpp also informed us of other VE equipment being sold on the same web site by the same company. Regrettably, these too were demo items loaned to the same company.
Now, I am not going to go into any more specifics of the case or reveal more undue inside information; but suffice to say, we took rodpp’s complaint very seriously and acted upon it immediately. These things do not get concluded in a day or two, but take a long time to work out.
Going back to rodpp’s case… The truth of the matter is that he has bought a piece of used equipment from a third party, on a local website, where anyone can sell anything. The item was not put up for sale by VE. VE did neither sell nor loan that particular item to anybody in Brazil for resale purposes. It was -again; investigation pending- most likely a piece of demo equipment that was not meant to be sold to end users. Besides, it was clearly stored in less than ideal conditions for a very long time as mould or fungus does not grow easily on these units (We supply desiccant with every system, which needs replacing periodically). Needless to say, we were never asked to provide any repair or replacement service by the re-seller at any stage. Granted this would be a frustrating experience for any consumer, the case must be taken up with the seller of the goods and not the manufacturer. I am not familiar with the website on which the system was sold (it is entirely in Portuguese); however there may be some protection for purchases made online, just like on other popular auction sites.
This is not about cost of a replacement unit or being picky about the type of customers we prioritise at all. Had we provided a replacement microscope to rodpp directly, we would have practically endorsed the transaction between him and the re-seller that should never have taken place in the first place, and could have consequently implicated VE in any further action going forward.
Nonetheless when rodpp contacted us with his problem, I suggested that he claim a full refund from the re-seller, since I knew that the re-seller would not be able to replace the system with a new one. I even offered him a discount on any new product that he could purchase from another distributor as a goodwill gesture for his troubles. He refused this course of action, which was the cause of my confusion about his expectation from VE, as he has referred to in one of the posts.
Again, I am grateful to rodpp for bringing this to our attention and in doing so allowing us to correct some wrongs in the way our products may have been offered to customers in Brazil without our knowledge. Perhaps I was not able to explain to rodpp exactly what was going on behind the scenes, as we can only disclose so much information on an internal investigation to third parties. However, I personally don’t believe the issue warranted a complaint about “Vision Engineering after-sales support” on a popular forum, when we might in fact be one of the victims of the case. Also, this may cause unjust doubt about other VE distributors in Brazil and worldwide with whom we are privileged to work.
Ultimately everybody is entitled to his/her opinion and I hope my two-cents-worth would shed some light on any question marks. Apologies for the long post, but I tried to keep it as concise as possible.
All the best!
G.Turemen
My comments about the Mr. Turemen answer:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frustrating-after-sale-vision-engineering-mantis-elite/msg1050189/#msg1050189 -
That's incompetency of the highest order. The front line support verifying you are a legitimate customer. Then after it goes higher up the chain the management realise they will have to spend money to correct their agents mistakes, so they tell you to f.... off.
It is a far cry from how other companies handle their dealers mistakes. Only a month ago I sent a couple of photos of sloppy workmanship to a UK companies HQ, with queries of how it could be corrected. I did not expect much of a reaponse, if any. A few days later their main Irish agent visited we, condemned the whole job and had it redone FOC. His view was the job was a disgrace to them and ruined their name.
-
"...we cant't do nothing to you"
Do i see something wrong with this sentence
-
That's totally unacceptable. The company authorized those agents. When there are issues with them, they need to a) contact that seller and set them straight and b) make sure the customer is satisfied.
-
"...we cant't do nothing to you"
That's probably not copied verbatim, although in this day and age I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
Do i see something wrong with this sentence
If the above is anything to go by in a post-Brexit UK, then we may as well switch continents to Africa
-
Edit the first message by adding the Mr Turemen response that was given only five pages later is a manipulation that is intellectually dishonest.
Why ?
Because all the answers that were given have been made without prior knowledge of this Vision Engineering's response.
This completely changes the context in which these answers were given.
Something I don't understand....
http://www.visioneng.com/contact/worldwide-offices
I don't find any adress of a Vision Engineering Ltd office in Brazil.
There is an email adress but nothing more, no phone, no adress, nothing.
-
Something I don't understand....
http://www.visioneng.com/contact/worldwide-offices
I don't find any adress of a Vision Engineering Ltd office in Brazil.
There is an email adress but nothing more, no phone, no adress, nothing.
He said he bought it from a vision representative. He did not say he bought it from their office. -
Something I don't understand....
The OP talked about a "Vision representative", i.e., an agent or reseller of some sorts.
http://www.visioneng.com/contact/worldwide-offices
I don't find any adress of a Vision Engineering Ltd office in Brazil.
There is an email adress but nothing more, no phone, no adress, nothing.
Still, pretty disappointing behaviour from Vision Engineering UK. It's their (brand) reputation on the line... -
If they don't have an office in Brazil, nor in other lands of South America, they don't have a support for their products in those countries.
Vision representatives do not repair defective Mantis.
They have a brazilian site, but no adress of the support office in Brazil.
It seems that it has to be shipped to UK for repair.
http://www.visioneng.com.br/ -
Quote
I reported back to the Vision's representative that the optical was infested of fungus, in awful conditions.
It seems hard to believe this....
-
Hello!
Thank you all from the replies.
I received another email from Vision Engineering UK after my complaint and they corrected me regarding the "representative".
They said:
"SELLER_NAME is NOT a representative of Vision Engineering (VE), but they were a non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil."
and after that:
"I agree with all the issues you have listed, however these must be addressed to SELLER_NAME or to local authorities, as VE has no involvement in any of these issues. I appreciate that it is a frustrating experience for you, however I am not sure that I understand what you are expecting from Vision Engineering."
So, as I purchased from a VE authorized dealer they understanding is that the problem is between me and the dealer. And they are not understanding what I am expecting from them...
-
Quote
I reported back to the Vision's representative that the optical was infested of fungus, in awful conditions.
It seems hard to believe this....
Please, see the attached pictures.
-
http://www.visioneng.com.br/
I get the feeling, I'm only hearing one side of the story here.
I will point this thread to the Vision Engineering UK contact, so that they can express their side if they want. -
How old was this Mantis Elite ?
This kind of problem can't happen in short time.
Where is it coming from ? From Manaus of some equatorial region ?
This is NOT a demo Mantis Elite, it is an used one.
Have you some guarantee ?
You have sufficient consumer protection laws in Brazil, you have to take a lawyer and initiate a judiciary action against the person who sold you this Mantis Elite.
There was clearly a fraud.
Your problem is with this guy, not with Vision Engineering. -
Can the Microscope be reasonably easily opened up (if necessary, using instructions/service manuals), and quickly/easily be cleaned ?
Maybe the packaging got subjected to changing temperatures while it was originally sent to you. This maybe caused water/damp to occur, inside the package. Which could have made some mold and stuff, I guess.
If it was on glass, then I would have thought it should be fairly easily cleaned ?
(But I suppose great care is needed, to avoid scratching the optical glass).
Was there any kind of guarantee with the unit, and who was the guarantee with ?
In the UK, we can take companies to the small claims court, if there are disputes. I don't know how it works in Brazil, and if the reseller is outside of Brazil, that makes it even more complicated. -
How old was this Mantis Elite ?
This kind of problem can't happen in short time.
Where is it coming from ? From Manaus of some equatorial region ?
This is NOT a demo Mantis Elite, it is an used one.
Have you some guarantee ?
You have sufficient consumer protection laws in Brazil, you have to take a lawyer and initiate a judiciary action against the person who sold you this Mantis Elite.
There was clearly a fraud.
Your problem is with this guy, not with Vision Engineering.
It is not a guy, it is an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. It is a company from São Paulo. -
http://www.visioneng.com.br/
I get the feeling, I'm only hearing one side of the story here.
I will point this thread to the Vision Engineering UK contact, so that they can express their side if they want.
That is a good idea. I get worried when only one side, talks about things. They can sometimes miss out important details. -
Quote
t is not a guy, it is an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. It is a company from São Paulo.
They where.
If it is a company, it is more easy to win a lawsuit ....consumers are very well defended in Brazil....Quote"I agree with all the issues you have listed, however these must be addressed to SELLER_NAME or to local authorities, as VE has no involvement in any of these issues. I appreciate that it is a frustrating experience for you, however I am not sure that I understand what you are expecting from Vision Engineering."
Yes, that's right.
-
http://www.visioneng.com.br/
I get the feeling, I'm only hearing one side of the story here.
I will point this thread to the Vision Engineering UK contact, so that they can express their side if they want.
That is a good idea. I get worried when only one side, talks about things. They can sometimes miss out important details.
Yes, of course. I just sent an email to the Vision Engineering UK contact and put a link to this thread in case they want to post here. -
Quote
t is not a guy, it is an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. It is a company from São Paulo.
They where.
If it is a company, it is more easy to win a lawsuit ....consumers are very well defended in Brazil....
My purchase was about 6 months ago and in that ocasion they were an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. -
http://www.visioneng.com.br/
I get the feeling, I'm only hearing one side of the story here.
I will point this thread to the Vision Engineering UK contact, so that they can express their side if they want.
That is a good idea. I get worried when only one side, talks about things. They can sometimes miss out important details.
Yes, of course. I just sent an email to the Vision Engineering UK contact and put a link to this thread in case they want to post here.
http://www.visioneng.com/contact/finding-a-distributor
Interestingly, it seems to say that they treat these distributors, seriously.QuoteVision Engineering has over 120 stock holding distributors around the World to be sure you are able to access our patented Stereo Microscopes, optical measuring systems and our expanding range of inspection products.
They are fully trained, so you can expect professional and knowledgeable representatives in your area to discuss your technical inspection or measurement requirement. Our partners are always being evaluated to enable us to provide you with the best service we can offer.
So they should at least, be taking at least some of the (moral) responsibility. Since they seem to be at least recommending the distributors, and claiming they are maintaining the quality of them, via checks or something. (I.e. The evaluated bit bolded in above quote) -
How old was this Mantis Elite ?
This kind of problem can't happen in short time.
Where is it coming from ? From Manaus of some equatorial region ?
This is NOT a demo Mantis Elite, it is an used one.
Have you some guarantee ?
You have sufficient consumer protection laws in Brazil, you have to take a lawyer and initiate a judiciary action against the person who sold you this Mantis Elite.
There was clearly a fraud.
Your problem is with this guy, not with Vision Engineering.
Complementing my answer for your questions:
How old was this Mantis Elite ?
I don't know, I received it already in this condition and reported the problem in the same day it arrived.
Where is it coming from ? From Manaus of some equatorial region ?
They sent it from São Paulo, where the company is located.
Have you some guarantee ?
They advertised a 12 months warranty.
-
I was under the assumption you bought it like this. If mould is now a problem after 6 months, could it but be something with the environment you're in?Quotet is not a guy, it is an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. It is a company from São Paulo.
They where.
If it is a company, it is more easy to win a lawsuit ....consumers are very well defended in Brazil....
My purchase was about 6 months ago and in that ocasion they were an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. -
You do not seem to want to understand.
Let's take the example of an authorized seller of a car brand that sells you a used (demo = used) car of that brand that they described as being "like new".
You buy it and you realize that the engine is worn out and the car is unusable.
In which you must claim?
In the car manufacturer?
No, there was fraud and dishonesty of the authorized dealer, and he alone, is responsible for his fraudulent acts.
The manufacturer has not participated in this fraud, he is not complicit, on the contrary, it is also a victim because his name is messed publicly.