Magnova oscilloscope

[Sariel]

Does anyone have any clue what these Magnova oscilloscope might be?

(See attached screenshot)

[axantas]

Just got. the invitation as well. How could they hide this from us. No clue. There is one single hit on Google. This thread. 

[Andre77]

It's great that the secrecy surrounding the Magnova worked for so long!

Okay, let's fuel the rumours with some insider information...

Exclusive previews for you, only here on the eevblog:

• Unique: The Magnova breaks new ground. It's not just another oscilloscope, everything has been developed from scratch. Give the Magnova 5 minutes and you will be amazed by its unique concept and new possibilities.
• Precise: 12-bit ADCs, as is now becoming more common in the new oscilloscopes? I can see a 200-microvolt signal sharply and in detail with the components only one microvolt high on the display (yes microvolts, not millivolts)... How is that possible? Are 12-bit ADCs sufficient for this or is something else needed?
• Fast: Over 12 million waveforms per second in history mode with more than 3.8 million waveforms in the history memory? These are just two of the unbeatable specs.
• Silent: Passive cooling with this performance? Is that possible? Perhaps with a full metal housing and all heat sources directly connected to it?
• Display Dimensions: Wondering about the size of the display? Any guesses? ... It's a tad larger. It boasts full HD with 1920x1080 pixels. It also interfaces seamlessly and looks really great with external devices, such as big (touch) monitors or projectors.
• Made in Germany: Development, circuit boards, housing comes from Germany... Okay, the microswitches come from Denmark. Did you know that the Danes are the second happiest country in the world? Some of this happiness will also be passed on to Magnova users... By the way, who actually installs microswitches in an oscilloscope? Don't they always use silicone switching mats?

The price? Not cheap, but fair and affordable for ambitious electronics enthusiasts. Much cheaper than it seems with these specifications.

We will be presenting the Magnova oscilloscopes for the first time at our booth at embedded world! I know, for many readers of the eevblog forum Nuremberg is a bit far... We will of course post further information on our Batronix website starting on Tuesday.

See you on Tuesday!

[axantas]

You know, what I miss these times? "Secrets" and surprises like this. Usually there are a lot of leaks and everyone knows everything about possible rumors and what it will be at the end.
You managed to keep that secret. 

...thinking about to book a ticket to Nuremberg, just out of curiosity. (...not THAT far from Berlin, where I actually stay)

The specs look stunning btw.

[Anthocyanina]

is magnova the name of the company? i haven't been able to find anything on them. i'm intrigued!

i also wanted to see if maybe the silhouette was a darkened but not completely black image, but this was the most detail i could get. looks like it might be touch screen and no knobs? the aspect ratio of the blue rectangle does look like 16:9. funny looking base too!

[SK]

I don't know what is the harder work...

...developing a scope "like this" (...what ever it is  !! ?? ;-)

=> or inventing a name for it which everybody on our planet leads to exactly "HERE" ;-)

BTX => You make my day !!

Unluckily as I am, I only will be able to get to Nürnberg (via the A6 ( and all of its actual construction sites :-) ) on Wednesday

So propably i already read about it during this day…

CU on 10.04.

[Fried Chicken]

It's great that the secrecy surrounding the Magnova worked for so long!

Okay, let's fuel the rumours with some insider information...

Exclusive previews for you, only here on the eevblog:

• Unique: The Magnova breaks new ground. It's not just another oscilloscope, everything has been developed from scratch. Give the Magnova 5 minutes and you will be amazed by its unique concept and new possibilities.
• Precise: 12-bit ADCs, as is now becoming more common in the new oscilloscopes? I can see a 200-microvolt signal sharply and in detail with the components only one microvolt high on the display (yes microvolts, not millivolts)... How is that possible? Are 12-bit ADCs sufficient for this or is something else needed?
• Fast: Over 12 million waveforms per second in history mode with more than 3.8 million waveforms in the history memory? These are just two of the unbeatable specs.
• Silent: Passive cooling with this performance? Is that possible? Perhaps with a full metal housing and all heat sources directly connected to it?
• Display Dimensions: Wondering about the size of the display? Any guesses? ... It's a tad larger. It boasts full HD with 1920x1080 pixels. It also interfaces seamlessly and looks really great with external devices, such as big (touch) monitors or projectors.
• Made in Germany: Development, circuit boards, housing comes from Germany... Okay, the microswitches come from Denmark. Did you know that the Danes are the second happiest country in the world? Some of this happiness will also be passed on to Magnova users... By the way, who actually installs microswitches in an oscilloscope? Don't they always use silicone switching mats?

The price? Not cheap, but fair and affordable for ambitious electronics enthusiasts. Much cheaper than it seems with these specifications.

We will be presenting the Magnova oscilloscopes for the first time at our booth at embedded world! I know, for many readers of the eevblog forum Nuremberg is a bit far... We will of course post further information on our Batronix website starting on Tuesday.

See you on Tuesday!

That is a surprising amount of Candor shown for a marketing email.  Wow.

[EvgenyG]

Perhaps it is great that they haven't started SDS800X sales here in Australia. Another option to consider. I guess we will see other companies introducing entry level 12 bit scopes some time this year. Competition is good for end user

[Fungus]

Perhaps it is great that they haven't started SDS800X sales here in Australia. Another option to consider. I guess we will see other companies introducing entry level 12 bit scopes some time this year. Competition is good for end user

They say "not cheap" so I think you'll be comparing it against the SDS2000X series.

[tautech]

Perhaps it is great that they haven't started SDS800X sales here in Australia. Another option to consider. I guess we will see other companies introducing entry level 12 bit scopes some time this year. Competition is good for end user

They say "not cheap" so I think you'll be comparing it against the SDS2000X series.

Was 8bit.
Replaced with SDS2000X Plus with 8 or 10bit modes
12bit = SDS2000X HD released in 2022.

[EvgenyG]

They say "not cheap" so I think you'll be comparing it against the SDS2000X series.

We will find out today. Anyone attending Embeddedworld in person? Would be great to see some photos of this new mystery scope.

[emerald13]

Well, here you go ;-) https://www.batronix.com/shop/batronix/magnova/index.html

[ebastler]

Well, here you go ;-) https://www.batronix.com/shop/batronix/magnova/index.html

Wow!! I don't know what I find more impressive -- the amount of original solutions, the fact that Batronix as a relatively small company could pull this off, or the fact that they could keep it a secret throughout a multi-year design effort.

I bet the Batronix engineers will be glad that they are finally allowed to leave the secret underground lab bunker again, at least to take a quick break.

[pope]

Has anyone managed to liberate it? haha.

Looking good although personally I'm really not a fan of having the BNCs on the side.

[tggzzz]

In many environments, reflections of room/window lights reduce the visibility of information on the screen. The standard way of reducing that was introduced in the early 80s: high-end workstations had black on white displays, which were much much better than orange/green on black glass TTYs.

So, can the colour scheme be changed to reduce the effect of reflections?

Shame if not; it looks like there are some interesting innovations in that scope.

[Aldo22]

What does that mean?

Sample rate    
Single channel mode: 1 GSa/s
Dual channel mode: 1.6 GSa/s

Isn't that a bit underwhelming for the price, or am I missing something?

Btw.

100MHz Version:
€ 3,568.81  20% discount
€ 2,399.- net (VAT Details)
€ 2,854.81 incl. 19% VAT

200MHz Version:
€ 4,758.81  30% discount
€ 2,799.- net (VAT Details)
€ 3,330.81 incl. 19% VAT

350MHz Version:
€ 5,948.81  30% discount
€ 3,499.- net (VAT Details)
€ 4,163.81 incl. 19% VAT

[ebastler]

In many environments, reflections of room/window lights reduce the visibility of information on the screen. The standard way of reducing that was introduced in the early 80s: high-end workstations had black on white displays, which were much much better than orange/green on black glass TTYs.

So, can the colour scheme be changed to reduce the effect of reflections?

You are showing your age. All the cool kids have gone back to "dark themes" years ago. 

More seriously: I don't think I want a paperwhite background on a scope display. Seems to me that the large areas of light-emitting white will "drown out" the traces, especially weak, rare-event traces.

[Fungus]

Taking over where Micsig left off...?

[ebastler]

What does that mean?

Sample rate    
Single channel mode: 1 GSa/s
Dual channel mode: 1.6 GSa/s

Isn't that a bit underwhelming for the price, or am I missing something?

It's 4 * 1 GSa/s if you use all channels, or 2 * 1.6 GSa/s if you use only two of them, in my understanding. Seems alright for a platform which goes up to 350 MHz bandwidth?

[Aldo22]

It's 4 * 1 GSa/s if you use all channels, or 2 * 1.6 GSa/s if you use only two of them, in my understanding.

OK, but then I would write it more clearly if I were Batronix.
With the Rigol DHO1074 they write:

Sample rate
1 channel with 2 GSa/s
2 channel with each 1 GSa/s
4 channel with each 500 MSa/s

[tggzzz]

In many environments, reflections of room/window lights reduce the visibility of information on the screen. The standard way of reducing that was introduced in the early 80s: high-end workstations had black on white displays, which were much much better than orange/green on black glass TTYs.

So, can the colour scheme be changed to reduce the effect of reflections?

You are showing your age. All the cool kids have gone back to "dark themes" years ago. 

More seriously: I don't think I want a paperwhite background on a scope display. Seems to me that the large areas of light-emitting white will "drown out" the traces, especially weak, rare-event traces.

Yes, the traces are an interesting case, which could go either way. Certainly reflections can be a pain on CRT scopes.

I have two black-on-white scopes.

• Tektronix THS720, for its isolated inputs. The screen is a relatively crude LCD, so generalising the experience to a modern scope is not useful
• A Digilent Analog Discovery. That uses a computer monitor for display, and black-on-white works well

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Let's make new mistakes - that's a good motto for life in general.

(Oh yes, I'm a professional with a job to do, not an effin DJ using tech to pull birds And especially not an influencer paid shill)

[tautech]

And especially not an influencer paid shill

Whom are they, they should be reported !

[Martin72]

Taking over where Micsig left off...?

It looks like this.
I would borrow one if I ever get the chance.

[ebastler]

And especially not an influencer paid shill

Whom are they, they should be reported !

I think you misunderstood. I took that as a humorous reference to the type of people who advocate cool "dark themes".

[tggzzz]

And especially not an influencer paid shill

Whom are they, they should be reported !

Although ebastler's comment is right, in the light of another thread I can't simply can't resist ...

According to the kewl kids, that is fully and unambiguously explained by



Sorry

[tautech]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

[tggzzz]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Ah. The Pollyanna attitude.

The realist attitude is to note that nappy wearers don't understand history and so are doomed to repeat it. That's tolerable iff serious users can avoid their ignorance, e.g. by reconfiguring their kewless so that it is functional.

Let's make new mistakes - that's a good motto for life in general.

[tautech]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Oh and forgot nonreflective toughened glass displays.

[vk6zgo]

They say"Give the Magnova 5 minutes & you will love it!"
30 seconds into the blurb, & I already hated it!

But then, I'm old & nasty! 

[tggzzz]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Oh and forgot nonreflective toughened glass displays.

"Toughened glass display" is nothing new.

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Let's hope the Batronix scope hasn't been made less usable due to avoidable "colour of case" choices.

[tautech]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Oh and forgot nonreflective toughened glass displays.

"Toughened" is nothing new.

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Easier to clean than some tinted plastic overlay on some old POS CRO. 

[tggzzz]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Oh and forgot nonreflective toughened glass displays.

"Toughened" is nothing new.

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Easier to clean than some tinted plastic overlay on some old POS CRO. 

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Usually right in the middle of using it because you have found some interesting fine detail, and want to explore it.

[tautech]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Oh and forgot nonreflective toughened glass displays.

"Toughened" is nothing new.

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Easier to clean than some tinted plastic overlay on some old POS CRO. 

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Usually right in the middle of using it because you have found some interesting fine detail, and want to explore it.

Sonny, you are still in the dark ages using blue plastic tints with green phosphors, modern DSO's offer far better contrast than them things from last century. 

[ebastler]

If anybody has something to say about the new Magnova scope, for a change, feel free to chime in.
Any live streams from Embedded World? 

[tggzzz]

So, wouldn't it be nice if modern scopes/technology avoided problems that older scopes suffered due to hardware technology limitations.

Many do.
Persistence.
Reverse contrast inksaver screenshots.
User definable trace colors. < not normally in entry level instruments.

Oh and forgot nonreflective toughened glass displays.

"Toughened" is nothing new.

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Easier to clean than some tinted plastic overlay on some old POS CRO. 

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Usually right in the middle of using it because you have found some interesting fine detail, and want to explore it.

Sonny, you are still in the dark ages using blue plastic tints with green phosphors, modern DSO's offer far better contrast than them things from last century. 

I'm content to leave others to compare their own experiences of touchscreen tablets with your assertions.

Having been formally trained to assess workplace equipment and working practices w.r.t. safety, I am well aware of the ergonomic problems stemming from interacting with display screens.

Are you suggesting that humans have changed since last century?

[tggzzz]

If anybody has something to say about the new Magnova scope, for a change, feel free to chime in.
Any live streams from Embedded World? 

Precisely.

Both fundamental performance characteristics and ergonomics are of interest.

EDIT: add price

[Antonio90]

It's great that the secrecy surrounding the Magnova worked for so long!

Okay, let's fuel the rumours with some insider information...

Exclusive previews for you, only here on the eevblog:

• Unique: The Magnova breaks new ground. It's not just another oscilloscope, everything has been developed from scratch. Give the Magnova 5 minutes and you will be amazed by its unique concept and new possibilities.
• Precise: 12-bit ADCs, as is now becoming more common in the new oscilloscopes? I can see a 200-microvolt signal sharply and in detail with the components only one microvolt high on the display (yes microvolts, not millivolts)... How is that possible? Are 12-bit ADCs sufficient for this or is something else needed?
• Fast: Over 12 million waveforms per second in history mode with more than 3.8 million waveforms in the history memory? These are just two of the unbeatable specs.
• Silent: Passive cooling with this performance? Is that possible? Perhaps with a full metal housing and all heat sources directly connected to it?
• Display Dimensions: Wondering about the size of the display? Any guesses? ... It's a tad larger. It boasts full HD with 1920x1080 pixels. It also interfaces seamlessly and looks really great with external devices, such as big (touch) monitors or projectors.
• Made in Germany: Development, circuit boards, housing comes from Germany... Okay, the microswitches come from Denmark. Did you know that the Danes are the second happiest country in the world? Some of this happiness will also be passed on to Magnova users... By the way, who actually installs microswitches in an oscilloscope? Don't they always use silicone switching mats?

The price? Not cheap, but fair and affordable for ambitious electronics enthusiasts. Much cheaper than it seems with these specifications.

We will be presenting the Magnova oscilloscopes for the first time at our booth at embedded world! I know, for many readers of the eevblog forum Nuremberg is a bit far... We will of course post further information on our Batronix website starting on Tuesday.

See you on Tuesday!

When will we have a video in use? And a proper review?
Do you intend to release some kind of PC-based software for interfacing?
Sample memory for arbitrary waveforms? EDIT: I assumed it's an AWG, that is not mentioned anywhere.
I see some kind of active probe interface. Is it an existing connector or are you rolling your own?

EDIT2: I'm aware this is largely irrelevant, as the result is what matters, but recent forum discussions got me curious.
What is yhe underlying software base? Linux, Android, Windows, BSD?
Are you using a custom ASIC? Or is it an x86/ARM processor?

Thanks!

[tggzzz]

When will we have a video in use? And a proper review?
Do you intend to release some kind of PC-based software for interfacing?
Sample memory for arbitrary waveforms? EDIT: I assumed it's an AWG, that is not mentioned anywhere.
I see some kind of active probe interface. Is it an existing connector or are you rolling your own?

Sensible questions.

I'll emphasise the active probe interface, and that the "proper review" should be more than "unboxing and I see a trace".

[Antonio90]

Indeed, although a basic video fumbling around is better than nothing (general UI idea, reponsiveness, etc) it is largely irrelevant for making a purchase decision.

[egonotto]

Hello,

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

Best regards
egonotto

[Antonio90]

Hello,

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

Best regards
egonotto

Hello egonotto,

Is your weakness getting any better? 

[Antonio90]

Hello,

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

Best regards
egonotto

That's partly why I was asking about the underlying software and hardware. The kings so far were Keysight and R&S MXO series, and they both roll a custom ASIC AFAIK.

[egonotto]

Hello,

I assume and hope that I am on the right track. I can resist the Magnova.
But ASICs are very expensive and probably only pay off if you sell a lot of devices. Maybe 12,000,000 wfms/s history mode is a misprint.

Best regards
egonotto

[Aldo22]

EDIT: add price

I have listed the prices here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/magnova-oscilloscope/msg5439656/#msg5439656

[Antonio90]

Hello,

I assume and hope that I am on the right track. I can resist the Magnova.
But ASICs are very expensive and probably only pay off if you sell a lot of devices. Maybe 12,000,000 wfms/s history mode is a misprint.

Best regards
egonotto

Maybe, but I find it unlikely. They wrote it on a post here, and it is in the PDF brochure and both Batronix's pages.

[xrunner]

Is this it?

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Batronix-Magnova-BMO100.html

[joeqsmith]

Is this it?

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Batronix-Magnova-BMO100.html

I've been thinking to get a new scope for some time.  Looks like this one is out:

Please note: Due to pending product certifications, the sale of this item is currently not available in the United States and Canada.

[Antonio90]

Is this it?

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Batronix-Magnova-BMO100.html

I've been thinking to get a new scope for some time.  Looks like this one is out:

Please note: Due to pending product certifications, the sale of this item is currently not available in the United States and Canada.

It's listed as not available for 60-90 days yet. Might be certified by the time it's in stock.

[shapirus]

Functionality looks quite impressive.

But ditching proper dedicated controls for: a) cursors; b) vertical scale and offset; c) timebase and offset; d) trigger level in favor of multipurpose controls is not innovation. It has been done before, and even to a greater extent: there are already tablet-like scopes with no physical controls whatsoever.

I wonder how much of a drawback the lack of dedicated controls will be in practice. Buttons may be more or less fine to remove and replace with touch screen widgets. But rotary encoders? I doubt that. I can see how annoying it can be that the same control in the same location for which you have already developed muscle memory (and can use without looking) will change its function. The UI solution(s) used to overcome this inconvenience have to be really brilliant to keep the normal workflow unimpeded. Let's wait for some good reviews to see how it really works.

[joeqsmith]

Maybe we could work a deal where they ship one over for a review and if I like it, it stays (of course I would pay for it at that point). 

The large display for my aging eyes would be a plus.

[egonotto]

The large display for my aging eyes would be a plus.

Hello,

then perhaps a Micsig MHO3 with 14 inch, 1920*1200 screen would be interesting.

Best regards
egonotto

[joeqsmith]

• We use high-quality ELMA-E33 encoders with a life expectancy of 1 million
revolutions and knobs with metal collets.
• High-quality MEC micro switches are used instead of silicone keypads.
• There are no tantalum or electrolytic capacitors installed on the Magnova
mainboard and frontend, as well as in the generator and logic analyser
modules.
• We use high-quality displays with LOCA “Full Liquid Bonding”. Although
this is more expensive, it’s worth every penny.

I was going to say, if they used encoders, they better work. 

They provide a LAN connection but they provide no details.   My old scope uses 100 which is pretty slow if you use the PC to post process the data.  Would expect a new product would be at least 1 if not 10G.   

They never talk about any sort of a software interface spec.  Maybe they don't consider using it with a PC?

[joeqsmith]

The large display for my aging eyes would be a plus.

Hello,

then perhaps a Micsig MHO3 with 14 inch, 1920*1200 screen would be interesting.

Best regards
egonotto

I've not looked to see what is out there, but am certainly open to suggestions.  I'll put some sort of criteria together.

***
As promised, this is basically what I am after. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-a-replacement-general-purpose-oscilloscope-for-home-use/

[DaneLaw]

• We use high-quality displays with LOCA “Full Liquid Bonding”. Although
this is more expensive, it’s worth every penny.

LOCA is simply liquid optical clear adhesive, like any relative cheap mobile or tablet, nowadays.
It's that liquid bonding that makes it a pain to change the cracked front glass on your mobile, - and it can lift or tone over time from fx temp & humidity.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006011158561.html

[Fried Chicken]

What exactly is all this about anyway?  New oscilloscope?  Made in Germany?

[shapirus]

What exactly is all this about anyway?  New oscilloscope?  Made in Germany?

Yeah, all of a sudden. And apparently quite a good one. With questionable controls, but that remains to be tested in practice.

[Fried Chicken]

What exactly is all this about anyway?  New oscilloscope?  Made in Germany?

Yeah, all of a sudden. And apparently quite a good one. With questionable controls, but that remains to be tested in practice.

From a new company or...?  All German with extraordinary claims?  Germans generally don't make claims without delivering, so maybe it's extraordinary?  And no videos or hands on?  Is this something to get excited about?

[Martin72]

Just take a look for yourself on the website...

[ebastler]

From a new company or...?

Batronix -- they have been around for 25 years, but this is a new dimension for them. They started out as a small engineering company, developing programmers for EPROMs and microcontrollers. They have added distribution of Rohde & Schwarz, Siglent, Rigol, Pico... over the years, hence have comprehensive T&M expertise. But this is a major step up in their own development capabilities. Definitely a surprise, and an impressive feat.

[Fried Chicken]

Just take a look for yourself on the website...

That doesn't tell me jack shit.  ebastler is actually helpful.

[KungFuJosh]

No need to be rude about it.

[Martin72]

There are people like that, Josh.

I've now taken a closer look at the scope, as it's not really comparable to using a smartphone at work.
Yes...not bad at all.
Maybe there will be a proper data sheet, the brochure provided is just a brochure that I couldn't make any decisions based on.
15.6" Full HD is a word, there's no other way to put it.
A 5-year warranty and microswitches, as well as an ELMA encoder, that's pretty solid.
So about the first impression:
+ 15.6" full hd display
+ 8Mpt FFT
+ Full AWG option with 20Vpp
+ build factor
+ Measured by the wfms/s probably fast hardware
+ comes with Testec probes
- High-quality ELMA encoders, but the buttons look cheap and clunky.
- Hopefully some functions can be switched off, the screen looks very crowded, too much info.

ebastler has already said something about the rather meager sample rate, but for the maximum bandwidth this is probably okay, most of the time.
Otherwise a good impression for the money - NOW.
But don't forget that this is an introductory offer.
After that, the 350Mhz model will cost €7078 (incl. VAT).
This means that it already competes with the 6000 from Siglent, as well as various "real" entry-level models from renowned brands such as Lecroy and Tektronix.

[Fungus]

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Really? How often do you clean the screen on your phone?

[Antonio90]

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Really? How often do you clean the screen on your phone?

Almost never. When it gets greasier than the fingers it becomes self cleaning.
But jokes aside, even though smartphone screens don't get cleaned often, fingerprints really bother me on bigger screens. I do clean my Ipad's screen from time to time.

[tggzzz]

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Really? How often do you clean the screen on your phone?

I never touch it, so it doesn't need cleaning.

[tautech]

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Really? How often do you clean the screen on your phone?

I never touch it, so it doesn't need cleaning.

Yep, shoe phones don't use touch displays.
Who'd want one these days ? 

[DaneLaw]

The brochure/datasheet finally gives a hit.
https://www.batronix.com/files/Batronix/Magnova/Magnova-Brochure-EN.pdf/img

[Martin72]

For me, this is just a brochure, the data in it is somewhat sparse.

[tggzzz]

You forgot glass display made fuzzy/reflective by smeared fingerprints.

Good - because it will need to be frequently cleaned

Really? How often do you clean the screen on your phone?

I never touch it, so it doesn't need cleaning.

Yep, shoe phones don't use touch displays.
Who'd want one these days ? 

What's a shoe phone?

Nobody has ever demonstrated I could hear a smartphone, so there's no point in my having one.

[DaneLaw]

For me, this is just a brochure, the data in it is somewhat sparse.

I don't get your point?.. brochure / datasheet..
Are we flyhumping words in lack of better now datasheet/brochure??. 

[Andre77]

We have just spent the first day of the trade fair with the premiere of the Magnova and would now like to respond briefly to your questions here in the forum. The basic data is already available, but the final data sheet is still in progress.

We would like to answer your questions shortly:
- In addition to the black UI color scheme, there is also a light color scheme.
- The sampling rate is 1 GSa/s per channel or 1.6 GSa/s if only the first two channels are used.
- The 16 digital channels sample at up to 1.6 GSa/s.
- The channel colors and further color schemes are adjustable (intensity, inverted intensity, 7/5/2-color gradient)
- Persistence is supported from 100 ms to 200s (and infinite)
- The operating system is Linux
- The system design is based on an Ultrascale+ MPSoC from Xilinx
- We currently support probe sensing. There are no special probes available for the probe interface yet.
- The 12 million waveforms/s are achieved in history mode if the signal is correspondingly fast and the timescale is correspondingly short. In normal mode it is over 300,000 waveforms/s.
- Certification for the USA and Canada is not yet in progress.
- LAN interface speed is 1 Gbit/s
- The PC software and SCPI control are under development and will be finalized in the coming weeks.

Pricing (plus local taxes, depending on your country):

100 MHz version:
€ 2,999.- net
€ 2,399.- net (Introductionary until 30th September)

200 MHz Version:
€ 3,999.- net
€ 2,799.- net (Introductionary until 30th September)

350 MHz Version:
€ 4,999.- net
€ 3,499.- net (Introductionary until 30th September)

Professional videos, datasheet and manual will follow. We expect the series devices to be available in about 8 weeks.

[Demon Xanth]

What's a shoe phone?

Nobody has ever demonstrated I could hear a smartphone, so there's no point in my having one.

[Fungus]

Nobody has ever demonstrated I could hear a smartphone, so there's no point in my having one.

You don't know about messaging apps?

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

I think that still qualifies as a (Maxwell) SMART  Phone
From the discussion The Magnova Scope appears to be a fine device. I guess if I needed a new scope,I would consider it.. Now we have to wait till a few folks try it out.

[Caliaxy]

2x1.6 GSa/s sampling rate (while being capable of sampling at 4x1 GSa/s) seems like an unusual choice. Any idea why they would do that?

Maybe they thought that 1.6 GSa/s is enough for the given bandwidth and longer captures (by under-sampling in the same amount of available memory) are more beneficial?

[Martin72]

Sample rate is one of the most powerful selling points of all, and they will certainly not have voluntarily given up "more".
I don't know the architecture, but there may have been no other way.
More sample rate is "better", even if the bandwidth is not so high, keyword fast signals and their correct display.

[Fungus]

2x1.6 GSa/s sampling rate (while being capable of sampling at 4x1 GSa/s) seems like an unusual choice. Any idea why they would do that?

Maybe less crosstalk between channels at the slightly reduced rate...

[tggzzz]

Nobody has ever demonstrated I could hear a smartphone, so there's no point in my having one.

You don't know about messaging apps?

Not a phone call. Requires the other person to have access to the right app.

Good luck calling for an ambulance , or similar.The

Won't fit in trouser pocket alongside keys (for more than 5mins).

My phone has survived being dropped off a roof onto concrete. Daughter's can't survive someone gently sitting on it.

[tggzzz]

Sample rate is one of the most powerful selling points of all, and they will certainly not have voluntarily given up "more".
I don't know the architecture, but there may have been no other way.
More sample rate is "better", even if the bandwidth is not so high, keyword fast signals and their correct display.

Bandwidth is king. Samples/s beyond the minimum necessary is marketing wank.

Good to see this device has a light mode GUI.

[nctnico]

I think that still qualifies as a (Maxwell) SMART  Phone
From the discussion The Magnova Scope appears to be a fine device. I guess if I needed a new scope,I would consider it.. Now we have to wait till a few folks try it out.

It all depends on how well everything works when introduced. The specs can be great on paper but it needs to work for real. Too much vapourware is being put out nowadays and promises made features will be added after buying the product. Given the specs the development effort (and thus costs) to bring a product like this on the market is huge. You can easely sink a 7 digit euros figure into developing an oscilloscope like this due to the sheer amount of development time needed. It is a brave thing to bring out a product like this in a very competitive market but also very risky.

What would be interesting is whether this scope can bridge the gap between typical signal analysis oscilloscopes and oscilloscopes which are more suitable for doing embedded work. That would be a major achievement.

[tooki]

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

300K is not even close to “beats everything”. Keysight 3000-series and up all do 1 million, and R&S MXO 4 and MXO 5 do 4.5 million.

[joeqsmith]

We have just spent the first day of the trade fair with the premiere of the Magnova and would now like to respond briefly to your questions here in the forum. The basic data is already available, but the final data sheet is still in progress.
...

Professional videos, datasheet and manual will follow. We expect the series devices to be available in about 8 weeks.

Thanks for the update.  If you're interested in working something out, drop me a message.  I have no problem working with new products and am certainly willing to help iron out any problems.   I'm not too concerned about certification. 

[egonotto]

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

300K is not even close to “beats everything”. Keysight 3000-series and up all do 1 million, and R&S MXO 4 and MXO 5 do 4.5 million.

Hello,

I mean the 12,000,000 wfms/s history mode.

Best regards
egonotto

[DaneLaw]

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

300K is not even close to “beats everything”. Keysight 3000-series and up all do 1 million, and R&S MXO 4 and MXO 5 do 4.5 million.

His own current MHO3 scope is likely quite close to that 300.000 peak with 360mpts in auto mem mode
If I recall the MHO3 unit got 230.000wfps/360mpts on paper, and Micsig had a tendency to undersell their ratings, which in practice were quite a bit higher.
but Keysight 3000 series, got what 4mpts?
Same with the 1000 series that got 2Mpts and on paper will do 200.000.. but one thing is specifications..
I remember Dave comparing Tek's new MSO2 series with an appalling slow update rate to Keysight DSOX1204G that peaked at around 50k to 55k..even though 200k on paper, but it's a long time ago so very likely something I missed.
But 300.000 with 320mpts in normal mode on Magnova is definitely a good start.
-

[egonotto]

Hello,

the high wfms/s can only be achieved with small memory. With 3 Gpts/s, 36 kpts already require 12 us. The maximum wfms/s that can be achieved here is less than 84 kwfms/s. With larger memories than about 12 kpts, the specified 230000 wfms/s will not be achieved.

Best regards
egonotto

[DaneLaw]

Hello,

the high wfms/s can only be achieved with small memory. With 3 Gpts/s, 36 kpts already require 12 us. The maximum wfms/s that can be achieved here is less than 84 kwfms/s. With larger memories than 12 kpts, the specified 230000 wfms/s will not be achieved.

Best regards
egonotto

What are the highest waveforms you can encounter, is it 230k? the fact that it's highly timebase dependent is what it is, and the same across the scene,
but to make it somewhat apples to apples...Your highest peaked waveform update rate in normal/auto mode.
Did you try to follow the video from the MHO3 thread?? What waveform peak value did you get with that approach?? also at 50ns it peak'ed at?

To put Magnovas 300k in normal mode into perspective. the Tek2 series that resamples it a little and around the same base price.. the highest waveform update rate Dave could muster with it was around 18k with just 250 mem-points, and obviously also in a fast timebase mode like 10ns or 50ns, but 18k is pretty dang slow with 10mpts (per ch)... that is even slower than DHOxxx series (that according to Daves video) peaks at around 27k in normal mode.

The add-ons for the Magnova seem like a mixed bag, but mainly down to the fact that BW-SW update pricing reflect MSRP & not the current introductionary pricelevel.
=
LA 200€       [1*Set of digital logic probes 8 channel + 2 ground -8v /+8v  1600MSa/s]
AWG 400€    [Waveform Gen hardware module.. Arbitrary & isolated Wav gen with 1 channel & 90 MHz bw (sine) sampling rate of 400 MSa/s].
BW upgr. 100 to 200MHz  1000€
BW upgr. 200 to 350Mhz  1000€
BW upgr. 100 to 350Mhz  2000€
[+ VAT]

[egonotto]

Hello,

as I have written in the Micsig thread:
"
it is 8.1 Hz with 360 MS
and 40 Hz with 10 ns/div and 1.8 kS
50 kHz with segmented memory 1 ns/div and 1.8 kS and 10000 segments.
But the intervals between individual trigger points are sometimes only about 1.1 us.
"
It looks like there are still errors. I also cannot change the brightness of the waveform.

Best regards
egonotto

[emerald13]

Here a short video just taken at our booth at embedded world 2024. Showcasing some example setups for our new Batronix Magnova BMO series.

https://youtu.be/GuHaMUE857w

[emerald13]

and another one...


https://youtu.be/9nBShoROJb0

[Martin72]

I would also like to have the direct display of the wfms/s....

[ebastler]

I would also like to have the direct display of the wfms/s....

Yes, that caught my eye too. Whether one is just curious about scope performance, or wants to optimize the settings to search for rare events, it's convenient to have that information without the need for a counter on Trigger Out. Oh, and I guess bragging rights are yet another application for that display. 

[joeqsmith]

Guy turning the adjustment knob on the one video didn't seem to sure they wouldn't damage it.   

I'm curious how fast they can update the screen.  Also what techniques do they offer to look at deeper memory and how responsive is it.   

[Anthocyanina]

the signal acquisition rate of 300,000 wfms/s (12,000,000 wfms/s history mode) beats everything I know so far by light years.

300K is not even close to “beats everything”. Keysight 3000-series and up all do 1 million, and R&S MXO 4 and MXO 5 do 4.5 million.

His own current MHO3 scope is likely quite close to that 300.000 peak with 360mpts in auto mem mode
If I recall the MHO3 unit got 230.000wfps/360mpts on paper, and Micsig had a tendency to undersell their ratings, which in practice were quite a bit higher.
but Keysight 3000 series, got what 4mpts?
Same with the 1000 series that got 2Mpts and on paper will do 200.000.. but one thing is specifications..
I remember Dave comparing Tek's new MSO2 series with an appalling slow update rate to Keysight DSOX1204G that peaked at around 50k to 55k..even though 200k on paper, but it's a long time ago so very likely something I missed.
But 300.000 with 320mpts in normal mode on Magnova is definitely a good start.
-

the 200k waveforms per second on the keysight 1200x was after a firmware update. Dave said he didn't have the latest firmware on it and so it was limited to the original ~50k wfms/s

[Fried Chicken]

Here a short video just taken at our booth at embedded world 2024. Showcasing some example setups for our new Batronix Magnova BMO series.

https://youtu.be/GuHaMUE857w

oooooooooooooooooooooo

[Sariel]

What is the noise floor for different V/div settings?

[hpw]

What is the noise floor for different V/div settings?

Not only this:

- ENOB as most Siglent HD still at 8..9?

- ERES supported or as only full BW?

- Jitter of the reference clock see LeCroy figures for HD series 

- external clock connection?

- Custom Probe attenuation, Siglent 1E6...-1E6

- Custom color settings for trace and text ?

just my 2 cents, while those are not really cheap. IMHO. so real specifications to provide and not only to attract turtles / rubias.

[vk6zgo]

and another one...


https://youtu.be/9nBShoROJb0

Why do people love this weird way of displaying a waveform?
It seems to be the default amongst YouTubers but in my experience, is not really something which is used in practice.

The signal input is conventional AM as is shown on the signal generator display & the normal way to display it on a 'scope would be triggered by the modulation, showing several cycles of the RF envelope at the modulation frequency.

Such a display allows a rough measurement of modulation percentage & linearity, which are things which would be important to someone using AM.

The display which is commonly used in YouTube videos is triggered at carrier rate, showing several cycles at that frequency, with the waveform amplitude variation shown as in the above video, which may disclose some information, but just seems to be used for a "pretty" display.

Magnova are at least using it to obtain the time interval between zero crossings, although my old HP22s calculator disagrees a bit as to frequency for that time interval, but why not just use a CW carrier?

On reflection, the weird display may be useful for obtaining a very approximate measure for Incidental Carrier Phase Modulation,
The only time I have ever tested for ICPM was with an analog TV transmitter, & that was just because NEC showed how to do it in their handbook.

[joeqsmith]

Guy turning the adjustment knob on the one video didn't seem to sure they wouldn't damage it.   

I'm curious how fast they can update the screen.  Also what techniques do they offer to look at deeper memory and how responsive is it.   

I wonder from a review standpoint, if using some of the X-Y analog scope, musical demos would be any benefit.  Obviously the idea is not to start the debate  of analog vs digital that we see repeating in the forums, but rather to get some feel as how they update the screen. 

[Antonio90]

¿Could we have a working example of the Bode/FRA feature?
What's the maximum frequency? Is it the 90MHz of the AWG?

[KungFuJosh]

I wonder from a review standpoint, if using some of the X-Y analog scope, musical demos would be any benefit.  Obviously the idea is not to start the debate  of analog vs digital that we see repeating in the forums, but rather to get some feel as how they update the screen.

With very little effort, and lowered memory depth, I was able to get a very responsive musical demo on my digital scope. I posted it in the SDS2000X Plus thread.

[joeqsmith]

I wonder from a review standpoint, if using some of the X-Y analog scope, musical demos would be any benefit.  Obviously the idea is not to start the debate  of analog vs digital that we see repeating in the forums, but rather to get some feel as how they update the screen.

With very little effort, and lowered memory depth, I was able to get a very responsive musical demo on my digital scope. I posted it in the SDS2000X Plus thread.

Thank you very much.  I don't normally follow the scope threads and would never have seen it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5424095/#msg5424095

Could you please post the audio track you used along with any information about the setup.   Basically, I would like to attempt to replicate your setup using my scopes and see how they compare.

[KungFuJosh]

Could you please post the audio track you used along with any information about the setup.   Basically, I would like to attempt to replicate your setup using my scopes and see how they compare.

I first saw this guy's stuff, which includes some links in the description:
https://youtu.be/jQjJZbgMw7E?feature=shared

The files shared I got from his youtube are here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1UHvGC6-TDywFri7am8YJl5G6svK33qhC

The main things to remember setting up a scope is that:
1. If the orientation is incorrect, your channels (inputs) need to be reversed.
2. Lower memory depth = faster performance. I think I had mine at 10kpts. The higher up you go, the slower the response time, and more messed up the images get.

And since we're in the Magnova thread, maybe they can post a demo song. 😉

[Anthocyanina]

I wonder from a review standpoint, if using some of the X-Y analog scope, musical demos would be any benefit.  Obviously the idea is not to start the debate  of analog vs digital that we see repeating in the forums, but rather to get some feel as how they update the screen.

With very little effort, and lowered memory depth, I was able to get a very responsive musical demo on my digital scope. I posted it in the SDS2000X Plus thread.

Thank you very much.  I don't normally follow the scope threads and would never have seen it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5424095/#msg5424095

Could you please post the audio track you used along with any information about the setup.   Basically, I would like to attempt to replicate your setup using my scopes and see how they compare.

the latest Chris Allen has released is this one



as Josh said, he shares the .wav file in the description

i played it on the analog discovery 2, which has a surprisingly good XY display



i'm also interested in how all the new scopes do in XY mode so i would also like to see the magnova playing oscilloscope music

[nctnico]

Guy turning the adjustment knob on the one video didn't seem to sure they wouldn't damage it.   

I'm curious how fast they can update the screen.  Also what techniques do they offer to look at deeper memory and how responsive is it.   

I wonder from a review standpoint, if using some of the X-Y analog scope, musical demos would be any benefit.  Obviously the idea is not to start the debate  of analog vs digital that we see repeating in the forums, but rather to get some feel as how they update the screen.

Musical demos have next to no benefit where it comes to showing X/Y mode. For X/Y mode on a digital oscilloscope you either need some persistence OR an entire cycle needs to fit into the acquisition memory. For my practical use (looking at small phase variances) XY mode on any DSO has been good enough so far.

[KungFuJosh]

Musical demos have next to no benefit where it comes to showing X/Y mode. For X/Y mode on a digital oscilloscope you either need some persistence OR an entire cycle needs to fit into the acquisition memory. For my practical use (looking at small phase variances) XY mode on any DSO has been good enough so far.

Practical shmactical. Music is cool. 😉😉

[joeqsmith]

They are downloading now.   

I guess it wasn't clear but my goal wasn't to evaluate the X-Y mode of a DSO.  Rather I am trying to get a feel for how they update their screen.  Granted, its about as revealing as using an AM broadcast band radio to determine how much noise is on your supply rail.   Still, I suspect it would tell me something...  Maybe not..

[markone]

It's me or maybe the prices of the Magnova DSO line are a bit of a gamble for a product that will not be, warranty wise, covered by a solid brand present worldwide ?

I'm not saying that the product is not worth the price, but coming from a small company, based only in Germany, that mainly works as a reseller, 3000-5000 euros are a lot.

I am exaggerating ?

[Martin72]

Everyone started small, even the better-known brands.

[OneGeekGuy]

I was able to saw it in the EW, and looked good, still not 100% sure of not having buttons, but definitively the bigger screen is worth it.

I did not ask, but I am curious, if they just subcontracted a company to develop the Oscilloscope of if part of it was done internally in Batronix. Also, curious regarding accessories because the inputs they have pins for power? Communication?....

For the price (Pre order price) vs specs right now putting aside the fact is new, there are not many references and so on, might be a good option....

Lets see I am really curious since I think this year would like to get a new osci to retire my DS1054Z.

[Martin72]

The large screen with the high resolution is something that fascinates me most about the new Scope.
I'm still not sure if I like the almost no buttons design.
I'd like to borrow one to get to know it.
When the launch promo is over, the current largest model (350Mhz) will cost over 7000€, so expectations are high.

[markone]

Everyone started small, even the better-known brands.

This was true many years ago during the electronic gold era, now the market requires huge starting investments for a company to qualify itself as a trusted source of certain type of goods / services.

If you look at their Team page you understand that they have not an R&D department, they are not structured as a company that design and develop complex electronic instruments, I guess they committed the job to a third party.

It would be interesting to understand who he is ...

[Aldo22]

If you look at their Team page you understand that they have not an R&D department, they are not structured as a company that design and develop complex electronic instruments, I guess they committed the job to a third party.

It would be interesting to understand who he is ...

Batronix writes:

5-year warranty. You get a full 5-year warranty and our commitment to support you.

The design and manufacture of the Magnova takes place at our HQ in Preetz, a small town in Germany north of Hamburg. The case is manufactured by a renowned metalworking company near Stuttgart, while the PCB assembly is done in Magdeburg.

Only high-quality components are used to produce the Magnova. These include ELMA rotary encoders, rotary knobs with metal collets from Switzerland and micro switches from Denmark. The probes supplied with the Magnova are from Testec, based in Dreieich near Frankfurt am Main.

[markone]

If you look at their Team page you understand that they have not an R&D department, they are not structured as a company that design and develop complex electronic instruments, I guess they committed the job to a third party.

It would be interesting to understand who he is ...

Batronix writes:

5-year warranty. You get a full 5-year warranty and our commitment to support you.

The design and manufacture of the Magnova takes place at our HQ in Preetz, a small town in Germany north of Hamburg. The case is manufactured by a renowned metalworking company near Stuttgart, while the PCB assembly is done in Magdeburg.

Only high-quality components are used to produce the Magnova. These include ELMA rotary encoders, rotary knobs with metal collets from Switzerland and micro switches from Denmark. The probes supplied with the Magnova are from Testec, based in Dreieich near Frankfurt am Main.

So it's their own project ?

Under the "Development" section of "The Batronix Team" page i read :

"In the development department, Martin, Sebastian, Lars and Florian are responsible for the constant development of the programming devices, our online shop and the in-house ERP software.The proximity between development and sales allows us to react flexibly to change requests."

Design a certified and maintainable commercial instrument like this is a task quite different (and larger) from what i can read above, it also will need a significant sum of money, easily around something like one milion of euros, otherwise it would be an "amatorial" device that will need years to be fine-tuned to the level of a high-end instrument ... at the expense of initial customers 

[XiMMiX]

Everyone started small, even the better-known brands.

This was true many years ago during the electronic gold era, now the market requires huge starting investments for a company to qualify itself as a trusted source of certain type of goods / services.

If you look at their Team page you understand that they have not an R&D department, they are not structured as a company that design and develop complex electronic instruments, I guess they committed the job to a third party.

It would be interesting to understand who he is ...

Afaik they started out making/selling their own kits and only later started reselling test equipment. I think it is now over 20 years ago that I bought an eeprom programmer kit from them.
Sure a €3000+ oscilloscope is quite different from a programmer kit, but they do have experience creating and supporting their own products. According to their site they still have their own range of programmers.

[markone]

Afaik they started out making/selling their own kits and only later started reselling test equipment. I think it is now over 20 years ago that I bought an eeprom programmer kit from them.
Sure a €3000+ oscilloscope is quite different from a programmer kit, but they do have experience creating and supporting their own products. According to their site they still have their own range of programmers.

I would say it's a complete different game that needs a total different level of skills and effort, especially for a commercial product in mid-high range segment of the market, where customers are used to a certain level of quality and support.

If those skills are not in house, it would require a quite expensive external consultancy.

[ebastler]

Under the "Development" section of "The Batronix Team" page i read :

"In the development department, Martin, Sebastian, Lars and Florian are responsible for the constant development of the programming devices, our online shop and the in-house ERP software.The proximity between development and sales allows us to react flexibly to change requests."

Design a certified and maintainable commercial instrument like this is a task quite different (and larger) from what i can read above, it also will need a significant sum of money, easily around something like one milion of euros, otherwise it would be an "amatorial" device that will need years to be fine-tuned to the level of a high-end instrument ... at the expense of initial customers 

Batronix have developed, manufactured and maintained (admittedly simpler) "certified products" for more than 20 years. I am surprised and impressed that they are brave enough to take such a big step forward, but don't see why they should not be capable of pulling this off -- most likely with some additional R&D bandwidth, i.e. additional permanent staff and/or contractors.

You might have noticed that they did not announce the product development ahead of time, but preferred to reveal it with a splash at Embedded World. I think they would have been ill-advised to announce that their development team is working on this, or that they have hired new staff and/or contractors for a secret oscilloscope development project...

I think this is a good time for you to stop speculating. Maybe Batronix will comment on the composition of the development team, maybe they won't, because it's really none of our business.

[mk_]

Afaik they started out making/selling their own kits and only later started reselling test equipment. I think it is now over 20 years ago that I bought an eeprom programmer kit from them.
Sure a €3000+ oscilloscope is quite different from a programmer kit, but they do have experience creating and supporting their own products. According to their site they still have their own range of programmers.

I would say it's a complete different game that needs a total different level of skills and effort, especially for a commercial product in mid-high range segment of the market, where customers are used to a certain level of quality and support.

If those skills are not in house, it would require a quite expensive external consultancy.

you are repeating your scepticism again and again.
As long as "the others" get paid...who cares if batronix designed that stuff with support from others?   
So - what`s your point?

[markone]

-snip

I think this is a good time for you to stop speculating. Maybe Batronix will comment on the composition of the development team, maybe they won't, because it's really none of our business.

I sounds, at least,  as "a strong suggestion" 

Ahead the launch of a new instrument it is all speculation, especially in this forum, but I could understand that here the german public could be more sensitive to certain arguments.

I stop here with this topic, not because you ordered that, but because I understand that it does not lead anywhere, at least at current time.

So, who will be the first one who dare the purchase ?

[markone]

Afaik they started out making/selling their own kits and only later started reselling test equipment. I think it is now over 20 years ago that I bought an eeprom programmer kit from them.
Sure a €3000+ oscilloscope is quite different from a programmer kit, but they do have experience creating and supporting their own products. According to their site they still have their own range of programmers.

I would say it's a complete different game that needs a total different level of skills and effort, especially for a commercial product in mid-high range segment of the market, where customers are used to a certain level of quality and support.

If those skills are not in house, it would require a quite expensive external consultancy.

you are repeating your scepticism again and again.
As long as "the others" get paid...who cares if batronix designed that stuff with support from others?   
So - what`s your point?

Again, is it forbidden?

I can count tons of scepticism under EEVblog forums in all directions, it's called "free thought".

[DaneLaw]

Under the "Development" section of "The Batronix Team" page i read :

"In the development department, Martin, Sebastian, Lars and Florian are responsible for the constant development of the programming devices, our online shop and the in-house ERP software.The proximity between development and sales allows us to react flexibly to change requests."

Design a certified and maintainable commercial instrument like this is a task quite different (and larger) from what i can read above, it also will need a significant sum of money, easily around something like one milion of euros, otherwise it would be an "amatorial" device that will need years to be fine-tuned to the level of a high-end instrument ... at the expense of initial customers 

Batronix have developed, manufactured and maintained (admittedly simpler) "certified products" for more than 20 years. I am surprised and impressed that they are brave enough to take such a big step forward, but don't see why they should not be capable of pulling this off -- most likely with some additional R&D bandwidth, i.e. additional permanent staff and/or contractors.

You might have noticed that they did not announce the product development ahead of time, but preferred to reveal it with a splash at Embedded World. I think they would have been ill-advised to announce that their development team is working on this, or that they have hired new staff and/or contractors for a secret oscilloscope development project...

I think this is a good time for you to stop speculating. Maybe Batronix will comment on the composition of the development team, maybe they won't, because it's really none of our business.

Nobody is claiming they are obliged to inform - but to debate and analyze a new product on the market and how it is made by this German product supplier Batronix and the components it holds and the fundamentals and how it came to life and what areas perhaps were outsourced, is certainly "our business".. if the user markone wanna speculate, speculate away ..nobody saying you have to agree.
Sofar I think the UI certainly seems to have a vibe of its own, so kudos for that to Batronix/Magnova but also very early days, the info & feedback is extremely sparse..

[ebastler]

I can count tons of scepticism under EEVblog forums in all directions, it's called "free thought".

But once you have posted the same thing for the 5th time in a row, it's called an "obsession". 

[markone]

Under the "Development" section of "The Batronix Team" page i read :

"In the development department, Martin, Sebastian, Lars and Florian are responsible for the constant development of the programming devices, our online shop and the in-house ERP software.The proximity between development and sales allows us to react flexibly to change requests."

Design a certified and maintainable commercial instrument like this is a task quite different (and larger) from what i can read above, it also will need a significant sum of money, easily around something like one milion of euros, otherwise it would be an "amatorial" device that will need years to be fine-tuned to the level of a high-end instrument ... at the expense of initial customers 

Batronix have developed, manufactured and maintained (admittedly simpler) "certified products" for more than 20 years. I am surprised and impressed that they are brave enough to take such a big step forward, but don't see why they should not be capable of pulling this off -- most likely with some additional R&D bandwidth, i.e. additional permanent staff and/or contractors.

You might have noticed that they did not announce the product development ahead of time, but preferred to reveal it with a splash at Embedded World. I think they would have been ill-advised to announce that their development team is working on this, or that they have hired new staff and/or contractors for a secret oscilloscope development project...

I think this is a good time for you to stop speculating. Maybe Batronix will comment on the composition of the development team, maybe they won't, because it's really none of our business.

Nobody is claiming they are obliged to inform - but to debate and analyze a new product on the market and how it is made by this German product supplier Batronix and the components it holds and the fundamentals and how it came to life and what areas perhaps were outsourced, is certainly "our business".. if the user markone wanna speculate, speculate away ..nobody saying you have to agree.
Sofar I think the UI certainly got a vibe of its own, so kudos for that to Magnova/Batronix.

I agree to every single word, you have got exactly my point.

[mk_]

Again, is it forbidden?

No, it is of course not forbidden.

but it is kinda boring

[markone]

I can count tons of scepticism under EEVblog forums in all directions, it's called "free thought".

But once you have posted the same thing for the 5th time in a row, it's called an "obsession". 

Reply to other thread participants is called discussion, obsession would be to burst 5 contiguous posts in a row, this is not the case, at least in my book.

Anyway, I have already said that I consider it a closed topic.

I repeat my question :

is there anyone serious about buying this product ?

[nctnico]

Buying not directly but I would like to give it a thourough test to see how it holds when pushed to the limits.

[vk6zgo]

The situation rather reminds me of the German made Hilberling PT-8000A ham radio transceiver.

It was much touted in the late "2000s" as being something of a "super radio", with really good specs & the pictures of the construction looked like the inside of a high level RF test instrument.

The projected price level was somewhat higher than the top line models from established brands, but it looked so good that some were tempted.
Suddenly in 2008 came the announcement that due to "difficulties in meeting EU standards" production would cease.

That would have seemed to be that, however it popped up again in 2014, & again in 2017, but it seems to be "crickets" since then.
Obviously, the ham radio market is smaller than that for test equipment, but  the Hilberling saga is something of an object lesson about trying to enter a market which is already well served, particularly with a premium product.

The Hilberling company itself is well established in other fields, so didn't "go down the gurgler" as  some have done over the years.

[ebastler]

The situation rather reminds me of the German made Hilberling PT-8000A ham radio transceiver.
[...] Suddenly in 2008 came the announcement that due to "difficulties in meeting EU standards" production would cease.
[...] it popped up again in 2014, & again in 2017, but it seems to be "crickets" since then.
[...] the Hilberling saga is something of an object lesson about trying to enter a market which is already well served, particularly with a premium product.

I can't quite see what Hilberling's technical challenges in making the product stable (or compliant, if that was indeed the hurdle) have to do with entering a "well-served market". If anything, they have announced the product too early, and hence missed the opportunity to actually sell units while the excitement and visibility level was high.

Given that Batronix have announced actual shipments of the Magnova scopes within a few months, I trust that they have done their homework before announcing it.

The Hilberling PT-8000A seems alive and well, by the way. The company still offers it on their website, for the painfully high price of 14,500 Euro. (Which, to my mind, is the real challenge of this product: Given that it is specifically designed as an amateur radio transceiver, it is just way outside the price range of the vast majority of potential users.)

[Antonio90]

I understand how the conversation can be seen as a waste of time. The anouncement was made at Embedded World, which has only just ended.

But it is also true that the 'scope is offered for sale, with no info worthy of a purchase decision whatsoever. We really don't know anything, general menu structure, active probe interface, bode plot workings, AWG memory, really, not even a datasheet.

The questions about how it has been developed are also relevant in light of the premium support and warranty promised.
I would wait at least another week, indeed, but a 3K-7K hardware which is already orderable, needs a datasheet at the very least.

[markone]

Buying not directly but I would like to give it a thourough test to see how it holds when pushed to the limits.

I imagine everyone here, including me, surely would happily play with the toy at no charge 

One aspect that would interest me a lot is the use via USB / LAN interfaces, being also an happy Picoscope user I'm starting to want a DSO with screen and capabilities similar to the devices of the british company, in one package.

It's a pity that most capable screen DSOs fall miserably when it's matter to transfer captured data to an host PC with a decent level of performance.

[ebastler]

[...] a 3K-7K hardware which is already orderable, needs a datasheet at the very least.

Batronix agrees:

Professional videos, datasheet and manual will follow. We expect the series devices to be available in about 8 weeks.

[44kgk1lkf6u]

I see some kind of active probe interface. Is it an existing connector or are you rolling your own?

It looks like they plan to make probes in the future.

- We currently support probe sensing. There are no special probes available for the probe interface yet.

It makes me wonder why they decided to use their own interface if they don't have the effort to make their own probes.  Surely the patents for the serious brands' interfaces have expired.  (Except for the newest one from Tektronix.)  They could even skip reverse engineering the EEPROM format and allow users to use the probes without readout for the first version of the firmware.

[ebastler]

It makes me wonder why they decided to use their own interface if they don't have the effort to make their own probes.  Surely the patents for the serious brands' interfaces have expired.  (Except for the newest one from Tektronix.)  They could even skip reverse engineering the EEPROM format and allow users to use the probes without readout for the first version of the firmware.

I'd assume that there is money to be made by selling accessories.

Once you have convinced customers of your basic product and have locked them in, they have less choice where to buy accessories, so there is less competition on price. If the scopes use a unique probe interface, users will have to buy Batronix probes... Given that Batronix will ship Testec passive probes with the new scope, maybe custom active probes from Testec are forthcoming?

[switchabl]

Aside from spending resources so someone else can make money off your product, it still seems risky. Imagine you want to offer a current probe later, so you go to Hioki and ask them to make one with your reverse engineered Lecroy interface? Pretty good chance they just say no.

[KungFuJosh]

Aside from spending resources so someone else can make money off your product, it still seems risky. Imagine you want to offer a current probe later, so you go to Hioki and ask them to make one with your reverse engineered Lecroy interface? Pretty good chance they just say no.

lol, Hioki would say no. But mostly because many of Hioki's best probes are often rebadged from other manufacturers.

One thing you don't need to worry about is finding somebody that wants to get paid to make shit for somebody else. It's a silly argument.

[Andre77]

We had some great days at the embedded world show and I see that a several questions about Magnova have come up here. I would like to try to answer them briefly (exact details will follow with the data sheet):

- Noise Floor (measured values at the prototypes)
at 50 Ohm inputs, 350 MHz analog bandwidth, 5 ms/div (= 70 60 ms/screen)
   1 mV/div: < 700 µVpp, < 60 µVrms
   10 mV/div: < 850 µVpp, < 75 µVrms
   100 mV/div: < 6 mVpp, < 550 µVrms
   1 V/div: < 55 mVpp, < 5 mVrms
   
at 1 MOhm inputs, 350 MHz analog bandwidth, 5 ms/div (= 70 60 ms/screen)
   1 mV/div: < 850 µVpp, < 70 µVrms
   10 mV/div: < 950 µVpp, < 85 µVrms
   100 mV/div: < 6 mVpp, < 550 µVrms
   1 V/div: < 55 mVpp, < 5 mVrms





- ENOB: We use the TI ADC12QJ1600. According to the data sheet, its ENOB is between 9 and 9.3 bits in the frequency range used. The ENOB of the overall system will be slightly lower (around 8.x bits as expected).

- ERES: In addition to the normal 12-bit acquisition, the Magnova can also perform continuous averaging over 16, 1024, or 4096 measured values. This naturally limits the bandwidth but also achieves an extremely high noise suppression, particularly with the higher values. In addition to ERES, the software filters and the average function also benefit from the 16-bit system architecture.

- On the backside are two BNC connectors, one for 10 MHz Ref-Clock in and one for AUX-out (Trigger-Out, Mask test, Ref-Out).

- Custom probe attenuation is also supported.

- Custom color settings for traces are supported. The trace text color follows the trace color.

- The Bode/FRA works up to the AWG frequency (90 MHz).

- X/Y videos will follow. I am sure that at least one of my colleagues will love to run the audio X/Y test. ;-)

Sorry, our team page on batronix.com is unfortunately already longer out of date; we haven't had it in view recently. We will hire a photographer in the near future bring it up to date.

I understand that some may be skeptical about how such a large project was possible with a limited number of hardware, software, and VHDL developers.

However, the features and performance specified are not just ideas for the future; they have already been completely implemented.

We realize that a lot of information is still missing. Nobody buys an oscilloscope in this price range based solely on speculation. Complete datasheets and videos will follow in the coming weeks. The full release will occur in about 8 weeks when the series hardware becomes available.

[Antonio90]

Thanks Andre! Keep us updated 

[nctnico]

Just a quick note: Vrms includes DC offset. The standard deviation would be a more appropriate measurement for noise floor.

Bode plot / FRA up to 90MHz is nice as this would also allow to do power distribution network (PDN) analysis. Bonus points if the FRA magnitude can be used as a source for math; this way you can plot impedance using a relatively simple formula.

[egonotto]

........
- Noise Floor (measured values at the prototypes)
at 50 Ohm inputs, 350 MHz analog bandwidth, 5 ms/div (= 70 ms/screen)
......

Hello,

I assume it is 60 ms/screen.

How much memory would you have at 10 ms/div?
80 Mpts surprises me a little.
Would you then have 666,666 Mpts/s sample rate?

Best regards
egonotto

[Andre77]

Hello egonotto,

I assume it is 60 ms/screen.

Yes, that's right of course, my typo.

How much memory would you have at 10 ms/div?
80 Mpts surprises me a little.
Would you then have 666,666 Mpts/s sample rate?

If the memory is no longer sufficient for the entire recording time at the highest sampling rate, the next lower rate is used. At 10 ms/div (120 ms/screen) and 4 channels, this would be 500 MSa/s. The memory remains at 60 Mpts per channel.

Best regards,
Andre

[Ulrich.G]

When the launch promo is over, the current largest model (350Mhz) will cost over 7000€, so expectations are high.

There are certainly some interesting new ideas in this scope, but before starting such a project from scratch - how does such a small company come up with the idea that there is a need for a completely new design in this small, highly specialized market, in a price segment that is far from enthusiastic hobbyists?

[ebastler]

There are certainly some interesting new ideas in this scope, but before starting such a project from scratch - how does such a small company come up with the idea that there is a need for a completely new design in this small, highly specialized market, in a price segment that is far from enthusiastic hobbyists?

I'd assume it comes from selling several major scope brands for years and feeling that all of them are missing big opportunities to "get it right", especially in the UI department. Based on customer feedback and observations of the in-house application/support team.

Large screens have been reserved for high-end scopes, and have been used as leverage for the very high-end prices in that segment -- totally disconnected from the cost of goods for these screens. And having such a large screen opens up some new possibilities for the UI design and the balance of knobs vs. touch screen.

So I can understand that Batronix saw an opportunity to show the "big guys" how it's done. Will it be a commercial success? I don't know, but I wish them best of luck. Certainly a brave move!

[nctnico]

When the launch promo is over, the current largest model (350Mhz) will cost over 7000€, so expectations are high.

There are certainly some interesting new ideas in this scope, but before starting such a project from scratch - how does such a small company come up with the idea that there is a need for a completely new design in this small, highly specialized market, in a price segment that is far from enthusiastic hobbyists?

It is perfectly possible some people who have experience with developing DSOs (either open source or at various manufacturers) are involved. Germany has a long history with developing all kinds of equipment (even at small scale companies) so it is not like the knowledge isn't there. Getting a project like this off the ground is mostly a matter of funding. And it is not like you can go out and buy a truly versatile oscilloscope nowadays. All the ones on the market so far have strong / weak points so you either compromise or buy multiple oscilloscopes. For example: I have 4 oscilloscopes; each with unique features the others don't have.

[moerm]

Hello all,

I'm "new" here, "new" as in "lurking a couple of years but registered only now". And that has a reason: this thread.

Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope and I'll structure my post upside down, explaining first why I will not buy the Magnovia scope.

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, but if I found an exceptionally attractive candidate I'd also consider a 350 MHz one (Having access to a 2 GHz monster allows for some leeway ...).

350 MHz and anything less than 2.5 GS/s is not acceptable. Simple as that (Don't ask me why I have that rule yet. Chances are you'll sooner or later get more of my thoughts in that regard than you'll like *g).
I did/do see the positive sides of the Batronix Magnova and I'm quite lenient wrt. not being a heavyweight (yet? After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight). And I'm a European which also means that I'm very much pi__ed off by having next to no scopes being built here in Europe. So, a european company designing and producing a (non-toy) scope is most welcome by me.

But from a european company I expect, just like one from across the ocean, serious stuff that is scopes in the 250 to 1000 MHz range. An upper end of 350 MHz might be OK or even impressive for some halfway professional far-east company (like e.g. Micsig) but from a german (or brit or french) company I expect better, especially with a price tag close to or even north of €5000.

So, simply put, that Batronix thingy is not a serious contender in my eyes.

Sure, > 1.5 GS/a scopes usually use ASICS and it may feel unfair to expect a small or midsize company to shell out a couple of Mio $ to have their own ASIC. But the way I see it the question must also be asked in reverse: is it fair to ask $3000 to $6000 for a scope with 1.6 GS/s max? I don't think so.

As for the umpteen Mega WUR (but only in certain conditions): GFY!
The 300k WUR is OK though in my books. Nothing to write home about but neither to complain about.

Re. the super-duper-premium high-end wow!-large screen, thanks no. Even pigs don't eat where they sh_t. Showing something is the very raison d'etre of a scope, so I do not want it to be glossy, LOCA, touchy. I want it easy-to-clean, easy to see, and no space wasted for gadgets! For me no dynamic button labels and other BS like that, thank you.
Plus, 15.6" isn't that large, it's about the size of my notebook screen. More importantly, if someone wants/needs a large screen, how about 24", or even 30"? Or, in other words, just give a plug to connect a real full size monitor to!

Also, but for the sake of fairness, that's a subjective thing, I very much dislike "la mode" walking into electronics - and that's exactly what the current trend to make everything dark or, worst case, black is. It's "la mode". Thanks but thanks, no, I was and am very happy with "bland light grey" equipment - preferably with innards dictated by engineers and not by marketing kretins.

What I do like with that Magnova thingy is that it seems to be somewhat modular, at least in concept. I also like the 400 MHz (I guess) LA (extension/option) - and quite cheap at that if I got that correctly (about €200 or so, probably +VAT). If I would look more closely I'd quite likely find some more features I like - but I don't look closer because I'm absolutely, positively not interested, at all, in a 1.6 GSa/s scope for €3000 to €6000.

I'll close with a prognosis: I guess that sooner rather than later we'll see Siglent and/or Micsig upping their game and, e.g. also offer LA options with 1.5 or 2 GSa/s that is, taking the good points of the Magnova and implementing them.

For the time being I'll order a 3000 HD from Siglent, I guess.

P.S. a word to Batronix: I get it, designing and producing in Germany (or across the ocean) is way more costly than in China. I really get it. But guess what? If a company is at a serious disadvantage and has to demand significantly higher prices than others then I don't buy from them, simple as that. The quality of Yogogawa scopes, for example, would be a reason for me to accept somewhat higher prices - but definitely not the exorbitant prices they demand, no matter whether it's them or their country that's responsible.
P.S 2: Sorry, but if a not-tier1 player offers hardly more or, in fact even less than Siglent but asks +50% of Siglent they are on the wrong road, a road that certainly doesn't lead to major success.
That said, I admire your ball size and wish you the best.

[ebastler]

Various strong opinions aside, you are in the market for a 500 MHz scope, don't care much about the screen size and explicitly do not want to touch the screen. So the Magnova is not for you; understood. You might be posting in the wrong thread then? 

The Siglent 3000X HD is, no doubt, a pretty powerful scope. I wish I could justify to get one for my hobby use! But be aware that it violates your acceptance criterion of 2.5 GSa/s when used with more than two channels, and that you will have to touch the screen...

[pdenisowski]

After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight

We've been designing and manufacturing test and measurement instruments since day one (90 years ago) - that's how we started as a company

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/about/magazine/tradition-of-innovation/tradition-of-innovation_256967.html

With regards to scopes, we did have some relationship with Tektronix (not sure about the details - before my time at R&S), but we've been designing and manufacturing our own scopes for well over a decade now. 

But I won't argue with the word "heavyweight"

[joeqsmith]

...
Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope ...

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, ....

Welcome.  I didn't make it past that second statement.   

[moerm]

You might be posting in the wrong thread then?

Pardon me then, I didn't know that only praise for the Magnova is allowed.

The Siglent 3000X HD is, no doubt, a pretty powerful scope. I wish I could justify to get one for my hobby use! But be aware that it violates your acceptance criterion of 2.5 GSa/s when used with more than two channels

OK, let's play your funny "focus on and pick what serves your view" game. I didn't say that I require min. 2.5 GS/s on all 4 channels.

I got it, it was evident enough in your posts in this thread, that you are a fan of Batronix and/or their scope. And I did not in any way attack you. I can live well with others having differing views. You might want to try that too.

And btw I also didn't bash Batronix, I merely provided a potential customers feedback.

After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight

We've been designing and manufacturing test and measurement instruments since day one (90 years ago) - that's how we started as a company

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

With regards to scopes, ... we've been designing and manufacturing our own scopes for well over a decade now. 

I know and in fact I've been a fan of R&S TME for quite some time - until an Afug test of your RTM scope woke me up. The results were shocking and that's putting it mildly. Since then, as far as I'm concerned I like (and I mean really like) the HAMEG HMO scopes, including even the early ones with a R&S label that is, Hameg scopes without R&S firmware.

...
Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope ...

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, ....

Welcome.  I didn't make it past that second statement.   

Come on, you are not stupid enough to mean that seriously. And I think I have at least a vague idea of your intellectual capability as I've seen - and enjoyed - many videos from you as well as many posts from you.

Look, 350 MHz is the best they offer and talking about their scope it made sense to say that I could be a potential customer. Plus, I explained why the 500 MHz are not really critical for me.

[ebastler]

I got it, it was evident enough in your posts in this thread, that you are a fan of Batronix and/or their scope. And I did not in any way attack you. I can live well with others having differing views. You might want to try that too.

And btw I also didn't bash Batronix, I merely provided a potential customers feedback.

I did not attack you either. Although I must say that I found your first post a bit too long, too opinionated, and too ripe with strong language.

But you are clearly not a "potential customer" and have made that very clear through the requirements and preferences you stated. That's what I wanted to point out.

[vk6zgo]

You might be posting in the wrong thread then?

Pardon me then, I didn't know that only praise for the Magnova is allowed.

The Siglent 3000X HD is, no doubt, a pretty powerful scope. I wish I could justify to get one for my hobby use! But be aware that it violates your acceptance criterion of 2.5 GSa/s when used with more than two channels

OK, let's play your funny "focus on and pick what serves your view" game. I didn't say that I require min. 2.5 GS/s on all 4 channels.

I got it, it was evident enough in your posts in this thread, that you are a fan of Batronix and/or their scope. And I did not in any way attack you. I can live well with others having differing views. You might want to try that too.

And btw I also didn't bash Batronix, I merely provided a potential customers feedback.

After all, R&S who started as "just a dealer" has evolved into a heavyweight

We've been designing and manufacturing test and measurement instruments since day one (90 years ago) - that's how we started as a company

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

With regards to scopes, ... we've been designing and manufacturing our own scopes for well over a decade now. 

I know and in fact I've been a fan of R&S TME for quite some time - until an Afug test of your RTM scope woke me up. The results were shocking and that's putting it mildly. Since then, as far as I'm concerned I like (and I mean really like) the HAMEG HMO scopes, including even the early ones with a R&S label that is, Hameg scopes without R&S firmware.

...
Actually I'm in the market for a 350 MHz scope ...

The reasons start with me actually looking for a 500 MHz scope, ....

Welcome.  I didn't make it past that second statement.   

Come on, you are not stupid enough to mean that seriously. And I think I have at least a vague idea of your intellectual capability as I've seen - and enjoyed - many videos from you as well as many posts from you.

Look, 350 MHz is the best they offer and talking about their scope it made sense to say that I could be a potential customer. Plus, I explained why the 500 MHz are not really critical for me.

R&S were founded 90 odd years ago, & have been making test equipment from the beginning.
 
They have been heavily involved in high level radio comms & broadcast/TV equipment & TE for both fields for 70 plus years.

Far from "some kind of", their equipment has been always regarded as "top-tier" (and with a price to match!).

They weren't makers of Oscilloscopes till relatively recently (although even that is now a decade plus).

[moerm]

R&S were founded 90 odd years ago, & have been making test equipment from the beginning.
 
They have been heavily involved in high level radio comms & broadcast/TV equipment & TE for both fields for 70 plus years.

Far from "some kind of", their equipment has been always regarded as "top-tier" (and with a price to match!).

They weren't makers of Oscilloscopes till relatively recently (although even that is now a decade plus).

My point wasn't to bash R&S. I know that they are considered as among the best in RF. But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company. Whatever, this thread is about a scope, so that, R&S scopes, is what I focused on. And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck. Also, as an add on, I consider a company building scopes with a glossy screen as insane and evidently not guided by engineering and rationality. It seems though that their higher end scopes don't have glossy screens. Maybe they just assumed that those who buy their lower end scopes would be attracted by something glossy; if so they'd certainly not be alone in that.

I did not attack you either. Although I must say that I found your first post a bit too long, too opinionated, and too ripe with strong language.

But you are clearly not a "potential customer" and have made that very clear through the requirements and preferences you stated. That's what I wanted to point out.

Well, that's your perception and interpretation and I accept it as such.

- Yes, you are right, I'm not a potential customer and I explained why. Unlike how some (wink wink nudge nudge) paint it, I did however bash neither Batronix nor their scope. I simply and frankly stated my position. Which, in fact is a service to them. I'll say it in the words of a restaurant owner with whom I later became friends: "(constructively) criticizing us is very important for us. There is nothing worse for us than what many unsatisfied customer do; they smile politely, leave, and never return. With criticism we at least learn what customers don't like and can change, adapt, improve".
And I sincerely tried to be fair and to mention the positive as well.

That said, I admit that I'm probably a "difficult" customer, because I try to be properly informed, to know what I want/need and what not and in which order of priority. Plus, I'm seriously allergic to marketing blabla. In other words, it takes a lot for me to like a scope, SA, multimeter or whatever, let alone a brand.

Friendly greetings

[KungFuJosh]

My point wasn't to bash

So far, you've done little else than to bash the scope this thread is about (with no experience of it) and you bashed most of the people that responded to you.

I am a fan of Batronix, I've seen nothing but a nice supportive company, who btw does have experience with development of TE, including their fantastic scope demo board.

You may not be aware of this, but it's poor etiquette to do what you did. For example, I personally and absolutely hate Rigol. This is based on my experience with my first scope having been a popular (and terrible IMO) Rigol scope. Despite my hate for that brand and the weird choices they make, I don't go posting in every Rigol thread why I won't be purchasing that specific Rigol scope. It's pointless, and many people enjoy those products. To each their own.

[nctnico]

My point wasn't to bash R&S. I know that they are considered as among the best in RF. But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company. Whatever, this thread is about a scope, so that, R&S scopes, is what I focused on. And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

You may get that idea from the Afug testing but A) there is a lot to question about what Afug found and some of their tests show lack of understanding how a DSO actually works. Take their triggering video for example which completely misses the mark. B) A lot of testing was done with very early firmware which should not have been released if you'd ask me. All in all the RTM3004 videos made by Afug do not represent the current state of this oscilloscope.

And where it comes to the glossy screen: it really isn't a problem. Lots of people think it is a problem to use an oscilloscope with a glossy screen but I have two DSOs ( including an RTM3004) with a glossy screen and it just isn't a problem. The reason is that our eyes focus on what is on screen which automatically undoes anything that may reflect. In the past I've worked with displays which project two images at the same time but at a different perceived depth in order to save space in an instrument cluster. By focussing your eyes differently you can select between the two images. Pretty nifty stuff; it is an interesting optical effect.

[ebastler]

I simply and frankly stated my position. Which, in fact is a service to them. I'll say it in the words of a restaurant owner with whom I later became friends: "(constructively) criticizing us is very important for us. There is nothing worse for us than what many unsatisfied customer do; they smile politely, leave, and never return. With criticism we at least learn what customers don't like and can change, adapt, improve".

But in the present case, you are explaining to the owner of an Italian restaurant why you prefer Vietnamese, right? Or lecturing potential patrons who are browsing the Italian place's menu on why you consider Italien cuisine to be rather pointless and why Vietnamese cooking is so much better. 

[KungFuJosh]

And where it comes to the glossy screen

I never understand this. If somebody doesn't like a glossy screen, they can get a matte screen protector to cover it with. 🤷

[pdenisowski]

But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company.

I've been with the company for > 16 years and I have never heard of us ever relabeling anything from a Japanese company.  Could you provide a product or company name?

During my time with the company, I don't recall us ever relabeling T&M products from another company*.  We have acquired some companies (most notably, Hameg), but I'm not aware of a single case where we took an outside company's product and just stuck our label on (and I work on the product management team and cover all of our T&M products).  Again, might have been before my time, so examples would be helpful.

And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay )

Also, as an add on, I consider a company building scopes with a glossy screen as insane and evidently not guided by engineering and rationality. It seems though that their higher end scopes don't have glossy screens. Maybe they just assumed that those who buy their lower end scopes would be attracted by something glossy; if so they'd certainly not be alone in that.

Believe it or not, some people actually liked the screen. But in all honesty, I'm 99% sure we didn't choose those screens because lower end scope users are "attracted by something glossy"


*I should probably say that I'm talking about instruments, not about accessories like probes, fixtures, etc., some of which are sourced from other companies and sold with the R&S name on them.

[tggzzz]

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

Are you confusing R&S with RS?

RS certainly does relabel equipment (and components)

[nctnico]

But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company.

I've been with the company for > 16 years and I have never heard of us ever relabeling anything from a Japanese company.  Could you provide a product or company name?

That might be Advantest. I don't know whether R&S sold equipment from Advantest branded as R&S but IIRC there has been some form of a collaboration between R&S and Advantest.

There has been some debate about this collaboration on this forum as well: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/realationship-between-rs-and-advantest/

[pdenisowski]

That might be Advantest. I don't know whether R&S sold equipment from Advantest branded as R&S but IIRC there has been some form of a collaboration between R&S and Advantest.

Maybe that was it - it seems there was a reseller agreement many years ago, but I'm pretty sure no rebranding took place.

We do now have our own subsidiary in Japan (R&S Japan).  In fact, they just posted a translation of my video on oscilloscope tips and tricks earlier today

[egonotto]

....

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay )
....

Hello,

a few years ago there were some videos about the RTM3004 from the Afug-Info channel on YouTube. There was a discussion on https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278?page=single
A few strange characters took part in this discussion. Later there was something similar here on the EEVblog.

Best regards
egonotto

[ebastler]

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay )

a few years ago there were some videos about the RTM3004 from the Afug-Info channel on YouTube.

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

[egonotto]

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

Hello,

yes.
The discussion in the microcontroller forum is interesting.

Best regards
egonotto

[moerm]

My point wasn't to bash

So far, you've done little else than to bash the scope this thread is about (with no experience of it) and you bashed most of the people that responded to you.

Nope, I did neither. For instance, I also mentioned - favourably - their fast LA option and its low price.
And I bashed nobody here. Trust me, it would be perfectly clear if bashing was my intention.

I am a fan of Batronix, I've seen nothing but a nice supportive company, who btw does have experience with development of TE, including their fantastic scope demo board.

Now I'm even more glad that I did not bash them. And I'd in fact have no reason to do do because I have no experience with them so far. All I knew about them is that they produce programmers, and good ones it seems.

You may not be aware of this, but it's poor etiquette to do what you did.

Should I from now on be worried about being nicely dressed before logging in here?

For example, I personally and absolutely hate Rigol. This is based on my experience with my first scope having been a popular (and terrible IMO) Rigol scope. Despite my hate for that brand and the weird choices they make, I don't go posting in every Rigol thread why I won't be purchasing that specific Rigol scope. It's pointless, and many people enjoy those products. To each their own.

Neither would I out of the blue bash a Rigol scope - although I'd wholeheartedly sign "I absolutely detest Rigol". Nor would I enter a Rigol thread to bash them. But then the problem rather is the contrary: Rigol fans mercilessly recommending Rigol stuff, prettey much no matter what the question was.

My point wasn't to bash R&S. I know that they are considered as among the best in RF. But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company. Whatever, this thread is about a scope, so that, R&S scopes, is what I focused on. And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

very early firmware which should not have been released if you'd ask me.

I took the liberty to cut the quote down to the relevant part. "which should not have been released" - but it was.

And where it comes to the glossy screen: it really isn't a problem. Lots of people think it is a problem to use an oscilloscope with a glossy screen but I have two DSOs ( including an RTM3004) with a glossy screen and it just isn't a problem. The reason is that our eyes focus on what is on screen which automatically undoes anything that may reflect. In the past I've worked with displays which project two images at the same time but at a different perceived depth in order to save space in an instrument cluster. By focussing your eyes differently you can select between the two images. Pretty nifty stuff; it is an interesting optical effect.

Doesn't change my opinion. At all. But well, that's my opinion, and I don't have the slightest problem with you seeing it differently. May you enjoy your RTM

I simply and frankly stated my position. Which, in fact is a service to them. I'll say it in the words of a restaurant owner with whom I later became friends: "(constructively) criticizing us is very important for us. There is nothing worse for us than what many unsatisfied customer do; they smile politely, leave, and never return. With criticism we at least learn what customers don't like and can change, adapt, improve".

But in the present case, you are explaining to the owner of an Italian restaurant why you prefer Vietnamese, right? Or lecturing potential patrons who are browsing the Italian place's menu on why you consider Italien cuisine to be rather pointless and why Vietnamese cooking is so much better. 

Simply NO. I'm lecturing nobody. I simply say what I think.

And where it comes to the glossy screen

I never understand this. If somebody doesn't like a glossy screen, they can get a matte screen protector to cover it with. 🤷

If - and only if - a glossy screen was the only contra of "my perfect scope" I'd likely choose that option. 'IF'.

But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company.

I've been with the company for > 16 years and I have never heard of us ever relabeling anything from a Japanese company.  Could you provide a product or company name?

Sorry, no. That was quite some time ago and I don't remember the model anymore. I seem remember though that it was a spectrum Analyzer and I do remember that I scratched my head when pretty much at the same time I saw exactly the same instrument from, I think, it was Advantest. I hope this helps.

And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay )

Just search for "afug rtm" on youtube and you'll find a whole series of videos.
As for nitpicking remarks wrt that review, I can't vouch for that ladies detailed competence but I like her videos and have always found her to be knowledegable and fair. And I have absolutely no reason to believe that she doesn't know how DSOs work.

*I should probably say that I'm talking about instruments, not about accessories like probes, fixtures, etc., some of which are sourced from other companies and sold with the R&S name on them.

No problem, I'm absolutely not out to hunt R&S down or bash them. It was a full instrument, no some accessory.
Maybe R&S had a deal with that japanese company to e.g. exclusively distribute their products in some region and possibly even to sell those instruments under the R&S brand.

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

Are you confusing R&S with RS?

RS certainly does relabel equipment (and components)

.

Nope. As a former R&S fan (and not exactly newbie in electronics) I'd never confuse RS and R&S.

Friendly regards

[pdenisowski]

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

Those must be it.  It'll take me some time (even at 2X) to watch all 15 videos

Ironically, the first video compares the RTM to an analog Hameg HM407-2 ... I just happen to have exactly that same oscilloscope here in my office

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video

[moerm]

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

Hello,

yes.
The discussion in the microcontroller forum is interesting.

Best regards
egonotto

Could you, although you seem to not at all like me, please provide a link to that discussion? After all, you described it as interesting.

[pdenisowski]

Could you, although you seem to not at all like me, please provide a link to that discussion? After all, you described it as interesting.

https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278

A really interesting discussion (in German), although it also contains a lot of very strongly held opinions in addition to quite a bit of factually incorrect information

[moerm]

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video

Which proves what?

P.S. I seem to remember that said instrument from a japanese company was quite old.

[pdenisowski]

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video

Which proves what?

Either (a) the "deficiencies" of the RTM roll mode implementation are not that serious or (b) Afug only has a single oscilloscope to make videos with. 

P.S. I seem to remember that said instrument from a japanese company was quite old.

I think this thread has already ventured much too far from the Magnova oscilloscope (which I am also very interested in).  Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread if you'd like to discuss this topic further?

[moerm]

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video

Which proves what?

Either (a) the "deficiencies" of the RTM roll mode implementation are not that serious or (b) Afug only has a single oscilloscope to make videos with. 

... or c) she for some reason chose the RTM from among different scopes. But: even if she has only one scope, so what?

P.S. I seem to remember that said instrument from a japanese company was quite old.

I think this thread has already ventured much too far from the Magnova oscilloscope (which I am also very interested in).  Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread if you'd like to discuss this topic further?
[/quote]

My aim wasn't to further discuss that point but to help you. I remembered that that instrument seems to have been an old one with a CRT and told you to help you. Simple as that.

[mubes]

My word, in the absence of much useful signal yet the AGC certainly has amplified a lot of noise in here.

Batronix should be judged by their actions, not whatever prejudices any of us choose to hold. Let's wait and see what they tip up with.  Personally I'm excited to see a new entrant into the market trying to stir things up...with the background and experience across a whole range of existing products to know what works and what doesn't. Given where they're positioning this there's a decent chance they might actually listen to people and add in features that the big players simply don't have....I already messaged them privately about one such feature I'd love to see - I'd even help them implement it!

It could be crock, it could be fantastic. Based on my interactions with the company in the past I've hopeful it's the latter, but none of us can know until the dammed thing turns up.

[axantas]

...Batronix should be judged by their actions ...
...Given where they're positioning this there's a decent chance they might actually listen to people and add in features that the big players simply don't have....

These are exactly my thoughts regarding Batronix, based on my contacts with Batronix. They are accessible and do listen.

Rigol releases a new scope with non working Video triggers and other stupid errors, some customers complain - reaction zero...
Timeframe for an update - oscillogod knows...  eternety?

[Martin72]

It could be crock, it could be fantastic. Based on my interactions with the company in the past I've hopeful it's the latter, but none of us can know until the dammed thing turns up.

I also think that we should wait and see, as there is hardly any information on this so far.
You can also get a 350Mhz 12 bit scope for 3400€ (SDS2354X HD), I can't imagine that you would launch your own scope at twice the price without being sure that it can compete with it.
And that a larger screen alone is not enough.

[KungFuJosh]

You can also get a 350Mhz 12 bit scope for 3400€ (SDS2354X HD)

Are the Euro prices higher now? In the US, the SDS3034X HD for $3,690.00 and the SDS2354X HD is $2,999.00.

[Martin72]

Including 19% Tax...

https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2354X-hd.html

[KungFuJosh]

Including 19% Tax...

https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2354X-hd.html

Oh yeahhhh. Forgot about that ridiculous VAT thing. Yikes.

[moerm]

You can also get a 350Mhz 12 bit scope for 3400€ (SDS2354X HD), I can't imagine that you would launch your own scope at twice the price without being sure that it can compete with it.
And that a larger screen alone is not enough.

(emphasis mine)

I think that pretty much nails it.

Whatever. A new player in the scope market certainly is welcome news to many (incl. myself).

I'm glad to see this thread active again and I probably (and unfortunately) did derail it somewhat but I had no ill intentions whatsoever. In fact, while feeling innocent (in terms of intentions) I recognize that my merely telling what I think and after that simply responding to others seems to have had a negative effect. And for that I sincerely apologize. I certainly wish no harm whatsoever to Batronix.

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video

Talking about Afug I went to youtube and watched a relatively recent video about a Benning current clamp.
And lo and behold! - what did I see there? A Micsig scope!

As you seem to be keen to interpret her/them using this or that scope for this or that purpose, let's look at what that newer video tells us. Maybe, shock and awe, it means that the RTM was, matching the findings of their review/test video series, found to be unsatisfactory and replaced by a Micsig scope?

In other words: I get it, you work at and for R&S, and not surprisingly tend to defend them. That's OK and normal.

BUT: Never ever smear or belittle a benevolent reviewer (not payed, serving "the community")!
Maybe politely hint at a (e.g. procedural) error such a reviewer might make, that's OK, nobody expects a company to hold still when someone erroneously "puts them in a bad light". But do not do what you did - such "irony" is bound to turn against you in the long run.

Friendly regards

[egonotto]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.


Best regards
egonotto

[nctnico]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.

AFAIK that one either doesn't have 12 bit or digital channels. And IIRC only two channels if it is the 12 bit model. All in all what the Magnova offers (be it on paper so far) is way more versatile & complete.

[Martin72]

It should, even if it (later) costs almost twice as much.

[egonotto]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.

AFAIK that one either doesn't have 12 bit or digital channels. And IIRC only two channels if it is the 12 bit model. All in all what the Magnova offers (be it on paper so far) is way more versatile & complete.

Hallo,

the Micsig MHO3-3504 has 12 bits and 4 channels.
But no function generator and no digital channels.

It all depends on what you need.

Best regards
egonotto

[Aldo22]

the Micsig MHO3-3504 has 12 bits and 4 channels.
But no function generator and no digital channels.

As far as I can see, the Magnova does not "have" an AWG, you have to buy it separately.

Optional Waveform Generator hardware module for the Magnova BMO series. Arbitrary and isolated Waveform Generator with 1 channel and 90 MHz bandwith (sine) and a sampling rate of 400 MSa/s.
€ 398.- net

That's about 470€ VAT included for a 1-channel AWG "module"? You probably can't even sell it individually or keep it if you sell the scope.

The same for the "logic probes"

Set of digital logic probes (8 channel + 2 ground) for the Magnova BMO series.
€ 199.- net

[Martin72]

Perhaps batronix should ask Rigol/Siglent if they can control their generators via USB/LAN.
At 470€ I add a little more and get a 2-channel, "liberated" to 120Mhz.

[egonotto]

Hello,

for 5111,05 € you get a Magnova BMO350 with 16 digital channels (1600 Mpts/s) and an isolated function generator (90 MHz).
I don't understand the 320 Mpts thing, because with four active channels you only have 60 Mpts and 4 * 60 Mpts = 240 Mpts.

Best regards
egonotto

[Vitold]

So far, you've done little else than to bash the scope this thread is about (with no experience of it) and you bashed most of the people that responded to you.

I am a fan of Batronix, I've seen nothing but a nice supportive company, who btw does have experience with development of TE, including their fantastic scope demo board.

You may not be aware of this, but it's poor etiquette to do what you did.

I have bought scopes from Batronix in the past and it was always a very good experience and very technical people. I think an oscilloscope from Batronix will be very good too.

Too bad Batronix did not yet make lower-price scope like the new Siglent. Maybe someday?

And maybe scope is also hackable like Siglent too ... 

[DaneLaw]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.

AFAIK that one either doesn't have 12 bit or digital channels. And IIRC only two channels if it is the 12 bit model. All in all what the Magnova offers (be it on paper so far) is way more versatile & complete.

Where do you get that MHO are not 12 bit and only 2-ch for 12-bit?

All Micsig's big screen models 14" 500MHz are 4ch with actively powered sockets to run their peripherals through their proprietary MicOpi interface for their line of MicOpi compatible products
with auto cal on the fly, fx SigOfit [optical isolated fiber probes] and various current probes & coils.

MicOpi units.
MHO 12-bit (4ch, 250, 350, 500Mhz, 3GSa, 360Mpts, 230wfms, variable pr ch. filtering 30Hz to bw)
MDO 8-bit (4ch, 250, 350, 500Mhz, 3GSa, 360Mpts, 230wfms, variable pr ch. filtering 30Hz to bw)
ETO 8-bit (battery 4ch, 350, 500Mhz, 3GSa, 360Mpts, 230wfms, variable pr ch. filtering 30Hz to bw)

All of these are also Full HD like Magnova but in a prefered 16:10 ratio so 1200p or FHD+ versus the more common 1080p (vertical) so the 1200p screen is more square, with added vertical depth than the normal movie-aspect ratio of 16:9 (1920x1080)
Vertical screen depth is something I prioritize, not least on a scope with a high vertical resolution, but the Magnova screen is so big (15.6") for a scope that the 16:9 ain't a con, and you will likely have around the same vertical depth as fx a 14" or at least very close to it..

One of the biggest gains on the Magnova is that it seems to be a western vendor backland that hopefully gives a rats azz about their customers and maybe will listen to their user's feedback..
- something that leaves a lot to be desired on some Chinese vendors, not least Micsig.



MHO

[nctnico]

Micsig makes nice products which work as advertised from day 1 (kudos to Micsig for that), they use bigger screens compared to the competition but they diversify too much between models. Like having an 8 bit MDO with digital channels and 12 bit HDO without digital channels. I want 12 bits AND the digital channels so neither models interest me.

[egonotto]

Micsig makes nice products which work as advertised from day 1 (kudos to Micsig for that), they use bigger screens compared to the competition but they diversify too much between models. Like having an 8 bit MDO with digital channels and 12 bit HDO without digital channels. I want 12 bits AND the digital channels so neither models interest me.

Hello,

the MHO3 is very new and still has teething problems. But Micsig is very helpful.
For example, my MHO3 only had a maximum waveform capture rate of 40 instead of 230,000 wfms/s. Micsig has released a new update in a few days and I can now achieve 35000 wfms/s, in burst.
But the MDO has no digital channels either.

Best regards
egonotto

[DaneLaw]

Micsig makes nice products which work as advertised from day 1 (kudos to Micsig for that), they use bigger screens compared to the competition but they diversify too much between models. Like having an 8 bit MDO with digital channels and 12 bit HDO without digital channels. I want 12 bits AND the digital channels so neither models interest me.

No, the saying should be, Micsig "undermines" good working products by making OTA-attacks that do fifth-column work on an otherwise good product, and when highlighting it..you realize how little they care.
And "NO" Micsig doesn't implement dedicated LA in any of their scopes., if you want more than 4 channels for logic.. look at a PC-based solution or another scope, seems to be the conclusion from Micsig.. that's fair enough, but the lack of any frequency response analyzing tools for Micsigs higher end models, ain't ideal.

Even the scopes they are selling today, from some of the biggest retailers in the Western world and likely clearing inventory... It looks like they are closing down the servers for apps.. App market, OTA updates etc....as Im getting an error when trying to connect.. could be just at my end, but this ain't a Micisg thread, so will highlight it another relevant thread.. someday.

Same with their rep here on EEVblog, that gone MIA (hiding) after all his yearlong swansong, with numerous indications/promises after seeking input from a lot of EEVblog owners.
Think twice before you jump into bed with a Micsig scope, not least in the bench category where there are a lot of alternatives..

[moerm]

Set of digital logic probes (8 channel + 2 ground) for the Magnova BMO series.
€ 199.- net[/i]

For the sake of fairness, that's a really low price especially when considering that it samples at 1.6 GHz which suggests it's good enough for 400 MHz. For many other scopes you can't even get logic sampling > 1 GSa/s, no matter the price.

[Martin72]

I read through the data again because I was wondering what could distinguish the scope from others and why it is not exactly inexpensive.
1GSa/s for all channels and max. 350Mhz bandwidth, I can already get that from other manufacturers and at a lower price.
So there must be other things, the most noticeable being the screen size and resolution.
Then the workmanship and the materials used.
Metal housing, made in Germany.
Printed circuit boards assembled in Germany, final assembly in Germany.
Then the rotary encoders from Switzerland, the microswitches from Denmark, but that is a qualitatively different house number, without question.
The workmanship is state of the art and that costs money.
OK, what else...
Of the properties listed, the FFT function catches my eye.
8Mpts, 4 traces, that's an announcement that you usually find in the higher price range.
If you believe the data regarding wfms/s in normal operation and mask test, the scope seems to have a generally high speed.
Then there's the fanless design, something quite unique.
But, it might be worth its future price once the promo period is over.
The question remains as to which target group you want to address.

[xrunner]

I read through the data again because I was wondering what could distinguish the scope from others and why it is not exactly inexpensive ...

They say it "in your face" style -

Damn Good Software

 

https://www.batronix.com/shop/batronix/magnova/index.html

[Sariel]

I hope Batronix will have good experience with this scope release, that will encourage them to continue and develop more test equipment devices.

Maybe a German made, high quality with many features handheld multimeter.

[moerm]

"German made", "German made", "German made" (+ "swiss made" + "from Denmark").

Yes that scope seems to have some attractive points, and yes, "made in Germany" is one of them - but, pardon me, certainly not one of high value. I mean, it's not like Germany is the or at least one noteworthy scope-country.

What "German made" actually, realistically means boils down not to high-end know-how, but rather to "good quality" as in "well built" meaning "not carelessly slapped together but rather built in proper facilities and by (usually) well trained technicians and workers.

But wrt design and/or high-tech it says very little. Germans would built (as in "production") even a technically crappy scope with care and well that is, it might be crappy as scope but it would be sturdy and likely survive decades in a useful state.

BUT: That's very similar in quite a few other european countries, Switzerland being but one example.

At the end of the day build quality is just one factor. With a scope one should also ask/look at whether it's better than average in its class or maybe even exceptional and whether it offers, at a minimum, what's considered "normal" in its class or, ideally, even everything a potential buyer (or ideally even most potential buyers) want, need, expect.

And please, pretty please, don't bring up screen size again and again. That was, many years ago, when scopes usually/often wouldn't come with a VGA, DVI, [whatever] external monitor connector or with LAN port + http server or somesuch.
Nowadays, again kudos to Siglent (and a few others), I hardly care a about screen size because, if I really need a large screen occasionally '12" vs only 8"' isn't a good solution, 19" or even larger vs 8" is. Screen size nowadays largely is an everyday comfort question, not anymore a major factor. Meaning: I'd buy a really good and attractive scope with a "crappy" 6.5" screen (and a VGA connector) without hesitation, but I'd seriously hesitate to buy a scope that leaves me wanting but has a - wow! - 15.6" screen.

Reminds me of the now trendy DMM with a 4.x" display, touchy of course and loads of so, so (not) useful GUI stuff. Yes, sometimes it's useful, indeed, to see a "trend" plot (which I tend to call "snail scope view"), sure, but at the end of the day, just like the screen size trend, it's mainly one thing: a playground for marketing, or in other words, a way to create "needs" (which actually just are wants) in "the market" (translation: the buyer herd whose raison d'etre is to be milked).

So, sorry, in the lower end market segment max. 1.6 GS/s may be acceptable (and I fully agree. 100 or 200 MHz bandwidth is plenty or even more than enough for 90% of typical hobbyist use) - but the price is way to high.

So, let's ask the other relevant question: what do you expect for that quite high price tag? Is "made in Germany" really important enough to you to shell out that amount of money? Really? Or maybe "large screen size"?

I personally - and I accept and respect if your view is very different - think it's not attractive. For the 1 - 2 GS/s segment it's far too expensive and for the segment of its price class it's, pardon me, nice (as in "it looks nice") but far below what I expect for that kind of money.

What's the current price for a low-end R&S scope? I don't think it's higher than that of the Magnova - and it gives you "a german scope!" and a (kind of) large screen too.

Earth to Magnova fans "care to return to earth, feet on solid ground?"

A nice weekend to everyone

[DaneLaw]

And please, pretty please, don't bring up screen size again and again. That was, many years ago, when scopes usually/often wouldn't come with a VGA, DVI, [whatever] external monitor connector or with LAN port + http server or somesuch.
Nowadays, again kudos to Siglent (and a few others), I hardly care a about screen size because, if I really need a large screen occasionally '12" vs only 8"' isn't a good solution, 19" or even larger vs 8" is. Screen size nowadays largely is an everyday comfort question, not anymore a major factor. Meaning: I'd buy a really good and attractive scope with a "crappy" 6.5" screen (and a VGA connector) without hesitation, but I'd seriously hesitate to buy a scope that leaves me wanting but has a - wow! - 15.6" screen.

Reminds me of the now trendy DMM with a 4.x" display, touchy of course and loads of so, so (not) useful GUI stuff. Yes, sometimes it's useful, indeed, to see a "trend" plot (which I tend to call "snail scope view"), sure, but at the end of the day, just like the screen size trend, it's mainly one thing: a playground for marketing, or in other words, a way to create "needs" (which actually just are wants) in "the market" (translation: the buyer herd whose raison d'etre is to be milked).

You are one precarious fellow.. you talk like your literally think you're the center of the conversation, you ain't, the Magnova scope is.. you just arrived.
What people wanna bring up, depending on what they value.. you don't decide.

[Martin72]

Earth to Magnova fans

If there are already "fans", then it happened pretty quickly.
And "Made in Germany" is a cost factor that you have to take into account if you want to get to the bottom of the price instead of dismissing it as "far too expensive".
It's quite possible that nobody will want to pay for it later and you'll have to switch to cheaper production.
Only time will tell.
I also can't imagine that it was a bunch of fools who developed the Scope, in other words, they must have had something in mind when doing it this way and not otherwise.
So there will also be a reason why the sample rate is not soaring to breathtaking heights, but is rather at the bottom with (usually) still sufficient reserve for the maximum bandwidth.
Let's just wait until more information is available instead of talking about "fans" and far too expensive right now.

[DaneLaw]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.



The modulated intensity grading seems okay with good separation, at least in regards to what I have seen from other vendors, like Rigol's current DHO-lineup, which left a lot to be desired on its intensity grading on modulated signals, even though it on paper certainly got the levels.

Magnova 256 levels?


// Source
https://images.batronix.com/magnova/Screenshot-4CH-Dig-Waterfall-FFT-Peaks-1920.jpg
https://images.batronix.com/magnova/Screenshot-4CH-AM-Zoom.jpg

[Martin72]

It would almost be too much of a good thing for me, but you would have to try it out in practice.

[KungFuJosh]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.

I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but the arrow in the top right corner might hide the FFT side menu.

[DaneLaw]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.

I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but the arrow in the top right corner might hide the FFT side menu.

Could be' or maybe it simply toggles between various features.. FFTx, Zoom, Cursors, Markers, Generator etc.
I do like their passive cooling approach.

[KungFuJosh]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.

I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but the arrow in the top right corner might hide the FFT side menu.

Could be' or maybe it simply toggles between various features.. FFTx, Zoom, Cursors, Markers, Generator etc.
I do like their passive cooling approach.

Nice, two speculation posts, now maybe they'll chime in and tell us. 🤣

[core]

As user Andre77 already told us the ADC it's a TI ADC12QJ1600.

In the datasheet I've found  :

Sample rate (max) (Msps) : 1600
Resolution (Bits) : 12, Number of input channels : 4
SNR (dB) : 57.4 (100MHz), ENOB (bit): 9.1 (100MHz), SFDR (dB) : 64 (100MHz)

Power consumption (1 GSPS):
Quad Channel: 477 mW / channel
Dual channel: 700 mW / channel
Single channel: 1000 mW
Total power dissipation (4x1.6GSPS, High Performance Mode) : 3.22W

So ADC can do 4 x 1.6GSPS. 1GSPS can be a power dissipation limitation or a limited processing power of FPGA (Ultrascale+ MPSoC from Xilinx)
We don't know exactly the FPGA model, probably an EG with GPU included.

More hardware details from Andre77 will be very useful until we'll see a teardown.

Very interesting, in the brochure I've fond the following :
"There are no tantalum or electrolytic capacitors installed on the Magnova mainboard and frontend, as well as in the generator and logic analyser modules".
I don't like at all to see (wet) electrolytic capacitors on sensitive devices. So it'a a very good news.


Interesting, Siglent SDS1000X HD include the following :
2 x ADC12D1000 (each of 2x ADC at max 1.6 GSPS in dual mode), power dissipation about 3.6W/chip.
SNR (dB) : 60.2, ENOB (bit): 9.6, SFDR (dB) :71
FPGS is an  XCZU2CG UltraScale+ (no GPU included)


All in all, I like what the Magnova promise us. I like the display, the passive heat dissipation, the included FFT implementation and Bode option.
For me it's an optimal mix between SDS3000X HD and Misg MHO3.

Let't hope it's not a vaporware.

[moerm]

You are one precarious fellow.. you talk like your literally think you're the center of the conversation, you ain't, the Magnova scope is.. you just arrived.
What people wanna bring up, depending on what they value.. you don't decide.

Wrong, provably.
Let me help you out with a relevant quote:

I personally - and I accept and respect if your view is very different - think it's (... whatever)

Actually, it rather seems that you, and quite a few of your "thankers", simply don't like my way of thinking and/or talking, and/or "disturbing" the way of discussing you're used to and like.

But whatever, as you, for an exception, correctly stated, this thread is not about me but rather about the Magnova - which unlike your post, actually was the topic of my post.

So, no offense taken from an empty shell, have a nice week

Earth to Magnova fans

If there are already "fans", then it happened pretty quickly.
And "Made in Germany" is a cost factor that you have to take into account if you want to get to the bottom of the price instead of dismissing it as "far too expensive".
It's quite possible that nobody will want to pay for it later and you'll have to switch to cheaper production.
Only time will tell.
I also can't imagine that it was a bunch of fools who developed the Scope, in other words, they must have had something in mind when doing it this way and not otherwise.
So there will also be a reason why the sample rate is not soaring to breathtaking heights, but is rather at the bottom with (usually) still sufficient reserve for the maximum bandwidth.
Let's just wait until more information is available instead of talking about "fans" and far too expensive right now.

Sounds quite reasonable. I largely agree.
And yes, I admit it, my "earth to Magnova fans" sentence was but a, easily mistaken it seems, attempt to lead/invite back to reality, feet on the ground.

As user Andre77 already told us the ADC it's a TI ADC12QJ1600.

In the datasheet I've found  :

...
SNR (dB) : 57.4 (100MHz), ENOB (bit): 9.1 (100MHz)

A miracle, look mom, a miracle! (probably another failing attempt of me trying to put it in a funny way)

So ADC can do 4 x 1.6GSPS. 1GSPS can be a power dissipation limitation or a limited processing power of FPGA (Ultrascale+ MPSoC from Xilinx)

... or, my benevolent positive guess, Batronix engineers wanting to stay reasonably honest and not go below 8.5 bits ENOB ...

All in all, I like what the Magnova promise us. I like the display, the passive heat dissipation, the included FFT implementation and Bode option.
For me it's an optimal mix between SDS3000X HD and Misg MHO3.

Let't hope it's not a vaporware.

So, there seem to be some potential customers for Batronix (which pleases me).

"vaporware" seems to be too harsh a word to use, I don't think that Batronix is basically spreading lies or making empty wet-dream promises. My guess is that they still have a bit ironing to do to make the bride as beautiful as possible. Plus, I guess, they are still doing quite some testing, gathering production or at least early pre-production unit data and nailing down final public specs, etc, well, the usual.

vaporware or similar, I'm willing to bet, is not to be expected from Batronix.

[ebastler]

In those long years where you have only been reading the forum and were not registered to post yet, a lot of words have been penned up. It must be a relief to finally let them go.

[core]

@moerm
I'm sure you're a fun conversationalist in real life 

[moerm]

Friendly reminder: The topic of this thread is the new Magnova

[core]

As for the powerhorse, we know that the Rigol DHO1000/4000 uses Artix-7 XC7A100T and Rockchip RK3399, but Rigol usually wastes resources.
The Siglent SDS1000X HD uses only a Zynq UltraScale+ XCZU2CG, which is somewhat similar to the XC7A100T, but manages to offer a lot more features than the DHO. We know that Siglent uses the resources provided by the hardware very efficiently. We still have no information about the components used in the SDS3000X HD.

Magnova, which can simultaneously process 4-channel FFT spectrum analysis with up to 8 million data points each and display the results on a 1920 x 1080 pixel resolution screen, should have a significantly faster FPGA than the SDS1000.

[Sariel]

An advertisal article published on the Magnova.
Maybe more information can be squeezed from it.

https://www.elektronikpraxis.de/batronix-praesentiert-magnova-selbst-entwickeltes-oszilloskop-a-2d5ab023879cf33f27b763001ead47be/?cmp=beleg-mail&pt=662218d0bd964

[DaneLaw]

The quite common Xilinx Ultrascale+ MPSoC
https://docs.amd.com/v/u/en-US/zynq-ultrascale-plus-product-selection-guide

Any info on how it's powered and if it relies on a separate AC to DC power brick with modern powering protocols?

_From the event vid, it looks like it's AC with AC to DC in-house..
The standard IEC-power connector with a case-inserted handle in the center.

[Darkover]

Maybe more information can be squeezed from it.

They claim a very good usability with the encoder on the right side and connecting the probes on the right side.
So it is only made for right handed people? I am 101% left handed and can not imagine to use
this scope because my arm will hide the text at the encoder and the probe cable is to short when it is
connected to right side.

Olaf

[Ranayna]

Maybe more information can be squeezed from it.

They claim a very good usability with the encoder on the right side and connecting the probes on the right side.
So it is only made for right handed people? I am 101% left handed and can not imagine to use
this scope because my arm will hide the text at the encoder and the probe cable is to short when it is
connected to right side.

Olaf

Since the scope does not have any other buttons, it should not be too difficult to enable simple screen rotation. At worst the channel numbering is then upside down, but i would think you should be able to re-order them in software as well.

[Antonio90]

Maybe more information can be squeezed from it.

They claim a very good usability with the encoder on the right side and connecting the probes on the right side.
So it is only made for right handed people? I am 101% left handed and can not imagine to use
this scope because my arm will hide the text at the encoder and the probe cable is to short when it is
connected to right side.

Olaf

Since the scope does not have any other buttons, it should not be too difficult to enable simple screen rotation. At worst the channel numbering is then upside down, but i would think you should be able to re-order them in software as well.

The probes on the right side can indeed be a problem for left handed people. Right handed too, if you have to move them to the left to measure something. I'm not a fan TBH, and I don't think BNCs are on the bottom for nothing, it's actually better for usability, and what we find on Magnova, some Micsigs, and all(?) handhelds is a compromise of the form factor. (For bench use)

As for the encoder and touch, I'm not sure. I have test equipment on the left side of my bench which I often use with the left hand without problem. Pushing buttons/screens or rotating encoders is not really hard work for the offhand IMO.

Rotating the screen would mean removing and reattaching the stand. We don't know if that is supported, and I doubt it. For starters, the handle is integrated in the case and would likely block the procedure. Cooling is passive too, and convection does play a fundamental role, as opposed to forced ventilation. I don't know if putting it upside-down would affect the thermal design, though.

[Njk]

Rotating the screen would mean removing and reattaching the stand. We don't know if that is supported, and I doubt it. For starters, the handle is integrated in the case and would likely block the procedure. Cooling is passive too, and convection does play a fundamental role, as opposed to forced ventilation. I don't know if putting it upside-down would affect the thermal design, though.

So they're experimenting with unusual exterior forms, where the input connectors are located at the side of the instrument. That disposition can be handy in certain use cases. But it will not be unusual for a user to find that the side is wrong and the other side would be better, and the solution is to rotate the scope by 180 degrees. So obvious. Any provision for that?

[Ranayna]

You have good points... The integrated handle and convection cooling make rotating the scope awkward at best, and impossible at worst.
It looks a lot like a tablet scope, but it isn't one after all.

Both things would not be impossible to account for, but way too late now for the first revision.

[KungFuJosh]

Both things would not be impossible to account for, but way too late now for the first revision.

Unless they already accounted for it, but we don't know since we're all just speculating. 🤷

[joeqsmith]

Interesting idea to rotate the scope.  Personally, having the connections all on one side, left or right, I can't see causing a problem outside burning up more width on the desk.  My current scope has the USB and Ethernet ports on the side.  The cooling fans are also on both sides.  So this area isn't usable anyway. 

I normally would be working right in front of the scope.  One concern I would have is not paying attention and putting any tension on cables.   Now we have a tight 90 degree bend rather than straight. 

[Antonio90]

Mi concern was more about partialy obstructing the screen view when crossing the probes over. But maybe it isn't a problem.

[vk6zgo]

Mi concern was more about partialy obstructing the screen view when crossing the probes over. But maybe it isn't a problem.

Why not place the 'scope to the left of the DUT?
That would mean the leads wouldn't obstruct the screen.

The downside is that if you want to use your left hand to adjust the DUT, you will have to swing your head back & forth, or have a swivel chair.
A number of analog 'scopes have the coax sockets on one side, & the controls on all CROs vary, but at least on the more compact ones, area mostly on the left side, & people of both "handedness" used both styles without problems.

Most left or right handed people can quite effectively use the other hand to do things, otherwise, we would all be pretty much disabled.

[nctnico]

Yokogawa has / had a whole bunch of scopes which have the input & controls under the screen. So the casing is narrow & high.



Since the Magnova is basically a tablet with 4 encoders and 2 push-buttons, allowing to use a rotated screen (0 - 90 - 180 degrees) is only a matter of supporting this in software. From the description is sounds like there is a fan inside so use in a rotated position shouldn't pose a problem cooling wise.

[Antonio90]

They said it is passively cooled.
Rotating it 180 probably isn't a problem, 90° probably is.

In any case, the stand doesn't look reversible. Maybe with a VESA mount, if available.