Author Topic: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)  (Read 106514 times)

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Offline Propretor

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2025, 09:01:30 am »
Why ZOYI did not provide such tables for its product remains a mystery.
Smart people do not so much seek loneliness as avoid the fuss created by fools.  Arthur Schopenhauer.
 

Offline Propretor

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2025, 09:03:10 am »
Martin72 Beat me to it :)
No one has received the new firmware 1.07 yet?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2025, 09:04:55 am by Propretor »
Smart people do not so much seek loneliness as avoid the fuss created by fools.  Arthur Schopenhauer.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2025, 09:08:35 am »
Maybe I haven't understood something fundamental, but I've been wondering the same thing about my ZT-MD1:
If you look at this data, the best accuracy is always at 1kHz. Why should you change the frequency at all?
 
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Offline aiekszzz

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2025, 09:45:47 am »
moreover, all the ratings shown on the schematic diagrams and on the radio components for the frequency of 1kHz
 
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Offline Propretor

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2025, 10:58:09 am »
moreover, all the ratings shown on the schematic diagrams and on the radio components for the frequency of 1kHz
Where did you get that information? I know that premium manufacturers of quality electrolytic capacitors specify ESR at 100kHz in their documentation. Moreover, considering the spectrum of pulse converters, it is the ESR value at 100kHz that is more important than at 1kHz or 10kHz.
Smart people do not so much seek loneliness as avoid the fuss created by fools.  Arthur Schopenhauer.
 

Offline indman

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2025, 11:06:56 am »
Maybe I haven't understood something fundamental, but I've been wondering the same thing about my ZT-MD1:
If you look at this data, the best accuracy is always at 1kHz. Why should you change the frequency at all?
Let's make it easy for the manufacturer and ourselves. They will produce LCR bridge meters with only one 1kHz frequency. That's fine!
Then why would I need a DE-5000 or other similar $70-100$ units? The same basic parameters of LCR I will perfectly measure on a transistor tester for 10$ or with a sound card for 5$ and a computer. And the results, believe me, will not differ much from expensive devices for 1000$. ;)
 
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Offline aiekszzz

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2025, 11:26:03 am »
moreover, all the ratings shown on the schematic diagrams and on the radio components for the frequency of 1kHz
Where did you get that information?
I was referring to the main parameters - capacitance and inductance.
When you buy an inductor, do you ask for 22mH at 100kHz 5A or just say 22mH 5A?
And on the basic electrical diagram, for which frequency are the parameters given?
 

Offline Propretor

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2025, 11:30:33 am »
When you buy an inductor, do you ask for 22mH at 100kHz 5A or just say 22mH 5A?
Based on your response you are telling the seller: “please sell me an inductance of 22mH at 1kHz 5A”.  :-DD
Smart people do not so much seek loneliness as avoid the fuss created by fools.  Arthur Schopenhauer.
 

Offline indman

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2025, 11:41:14 am »
Most recently, I really liked the response of a forum participant respected by many radio amateurs КРАМ
https://radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4713975#p4713975
For Russian-speaking forum participants, this link will be enough, but I do not yet know how to convey its meaning in English. :-DD
 

Offline aiekszzz

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2025, 11:57:13 am »
Yes, I already realized that I was severely blunted. Confused with the reactance  :palm:
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2025, 02:59:35 pm »
I didn't have a 470µF next to me, so here's a 1mF cap measured on a Hioki IM3570 with an L2000 kelvin probe.

You can see the measurements above 1kHz are garbage except ESR. You can't expect a $72 meter to perform magic that professional equipment can't do.

moreover, all the ratings shown on the schematic diagrams and on the radio components for the frequency of 1kHz
Where did you get that information? I know that premium manufacturers of quality electrolytic capacitors specify ESR at 100kHz in their documentation. Moreover, considering the spectrum of pulse converters, it is the ESR value at 100kHz that is more important than at 1kHz or 10kHz.

You need to read datasheets for devices you're testing.

A datasheet might say something is rated at 100kHz for ESR, but the actual capacitance value is +/- 20% at 120Hz.

In this case, that means:
To match datasheet ESR, you test at 100kHz.
To match datasheet CAPACITANCE, you test at 120Hz.
"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it." - Steven Wright
Best Continuity Tester Ever
 
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2025, 03:40:08 pm »
exactly  :-+
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2025, 03:40:20 pm »
Many of these newer LCR Meters, Tweezers, Handhelds or Bench types, employ the Auto-Balance LCR Architecture where the DUT voltage and current are measured and the DUT complex impedance computed from such.

This architecture uses a scaled Transimpedance Amp to measure the DUT Current in a "Virtual Ground" configuration in which DUT current is supplied by the meter source thru a controlled source resistance. The meter must supply the source DUT current as well as sink this current thru the Transimpedance amp, which places demands on the meter circuitry to handle these high currents at higher frequencies for low Z DUT devices.

Low DUT Z requires significant DUT current to produce an acceptable DUT voltage for measurement. If one considers DUT Capacitive Impedance @ 100KHz, this equates to ~1.6uΩ/Farad DUT Z. So a 160uF Cap only has ~10mΩ impedance and with a high test source current of 100ma only produces 1mv DUT voltage. Here a 1KHz measurement makes more sense as the resultant DUT voltage now becomes 100mv and much easier to accurately resolve. Conversely an inductance follows the opposite, for example a 1.6uH inductance has an impedance at 1KHz of 10mΩ and the measurement would benefit from using 100KHz as the impedance increases to 1000mΩ.

Consider having an LCR meter capable of delivering higher source (and sink) currents at higher (and lower) frequencies if Low Z DUTs are involved, and comes as no surprise that Tweezers, Handhelds and lower cost Bench Meters where battery and or cost become major factors, have limited frequency and DUT impedance ranges.

Anyway, hopefully this illustrates the importance of knowing how these meters operate, the limitations, and how the DUT characteristics must be considered when making quality measurements.

In all cases KTI (Know Thy Instrument) is a requirement for better measurements :-+

Best
« Last Edit: May 13, 2025, 04:04:50 pm by mawyatt »
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online Martin72

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2025, 04:46:15 pm »
Wise words, as always from Mike. :-+
It should also be noted that with the tiny voltages mentioned, there is a risk that some of them will be “lost” in the circuit's inherent noise and lead to falsified measurement results—this is particularly noticeable with inexpensive LCRs, sometimes even at frequencies as low as 10 kHz.
Because it's important to remember that all the parameters that are available and can be displayed are calculated values based on the measured impedance.
And if that's already questionable at higher frequencies, everything else is questionable too.
In addition, there are components that cannot be measured accurately, even with more expensive equipment, because the currents/voltages are too low.
At work, when we measure/adjust filter chokes, we use a device we built ourselves that can provide currents of up to 200A in pulses.
This allows us to reach the range where the choke in the device operates.
Of course, this won't happen to everyone, but it was just an example to show that even very expensive devices can reach their limits.
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2025, 05:10:29 pm »
Yeah, noise is always an issue as is accuracy (seems to decrease as the DUT impedance drops), which is also an issue with proper filtering fixturing which is another separate topic.

200A, that's certainly well beyond any LCR meter we're aware of!!

Best
« Last Edit: May 13, 2025, 05:12:14 pm by mawyatt »
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2025, 05:36:53 pm »
One of the interesting things about these handheld LCR meters is the use of the slotted H and L openings for leaded component use. This provides a direct really nice means for 4 wire Kelvin measurements where the DUT leads make the Kelvin Connections between Force and Sense. Bench type LCR meters require a special Fixture to translate the 4 BNCs to the slotted capability of the handhelds.

Low Z SMD DUTs pose a difficult measurement for both handhelds and bench types and why we developed the "Split-Kelvin" fixtures shown here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/different-type-lcr-smd-fixture/

These improve low Z SMD results, and folks with bench type LCR meters should consider this technique. Note we even developed a version for Bench DMMs, which also works quite well :-+

Best,
« Last Edit: May 13, 2025, 05:39:09 pm by mawyatt »
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online Martin72

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2025, 07:12:05 pm »
200A, that's certainly well beyond any LCR meter we're aware of!!

Here is an example measurement, albeit with “only” approx. 22A...
That was in the preliminary stage; the device can measure/calculate/display the values itself.

To get back to the topic, here are two pictures of the inner workings of LCRs.
Even though the packing density is getting higher and higher, you can see at first glance that one of them was designed to be much more complex and should “work better,” but that comes at a price. ;)



Online KungFuJosh

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #167 on: May 13, 2025, 07:57:31 pm »
You're missing a PCB in that Hioki photo that costs more than the ET meter. 😉
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Offline Propretor

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #168 on: May 13, 2025, 08:34:17 pm »
Quote
In this case, that means:
To match datasheet ESR, you test at 100kHz.
To match datasheet CAPACITANCE, you test at 120Hz.
Your words don't contradict what I wrote earlier. In fact, I agree with them. It's just that you supplemented my words with information about capacitance measurement. I just limited myself to mentioning ESR.
Smart people do not so much seek loneliness as avoid the fuss created by fools.  Arthur Schopenhauer.
 
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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #169 on: May 13, 2025, 08:55:56 pm »
Quote
In this case, that means:
To match datasheet ESR, you test at 100kHz.
To match datasheet CAPACITANCE, you test at 120Hz.
Your words don't contradict what I wrote earlier. In fact, I agree with them. It's just that you supplemented my words with information about capacitance measurement. I just limited myself to mentioning ESR.

I simply added clarity for people who can't extrapolate the rest of the information from your statement. 😉
"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it." - Steven Wright
Best Continuity Tester Ever
 
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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2025, 09:06:37 pm »
The tariff got a little better. The totally price is now lower than the tariff was, but it's still too high.
"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it." - Steven Wright
Best Continuity Tester Ever
 

Online Martin72

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #171 on: May 13, 2025, 09:28:41 pm »
In this case, that means:
To match datasheet ESR, you test at 100kHz.
To match datasheet CAPACITANCE, you test at 120Hz.


The meter will display an ESR value, with the capacity measured in the calculation at 100 kHz.
However, if the meter is unable to measure accurately at 100 kHz due to its low-cost design, the ESR value displayed at 100 kHz will also be inaccurate.
You can compare the measured values at 120 Hz to see if the values at 100 kHz are “correct.”
It is best to test the meter with a component that has been thoroughly documented.

Offline andre3d

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2025, 02:05:20 am »
 
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: New LCR meters, Zoyi ZT-DQ01 and ZT-DQ02 (March 2025)
« Reply #173 on: May 14, 2025, 02:16:38 am »
remove the dot  TXT extension

« Last Edit: May 14, 2025, 03:11:06 am by coromonadalix »
 
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