Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 72662 times)

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Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #225 on: November 19, 2018, 10:09:15 am »
Hm, why would you think that I didn't get what encryption is for? Actually you seem to repeat more or less what I wrote. Sometimes you wonder...

Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it.   if they are using eFUSEs then they probably have blown the fuse so you cna't read the eFUSE registers either.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #226 on: November 19, 2018, 11:05:00 am »
If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it. 

I find no flaws in that logic, but...  is it the case?

« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 11:22:50 am by Fungus »
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #227 on: November 19, 2018, 12:49:57 pm »
Hm, why would you think that I didn't get what encryption is for? Actually you seem to repeat more or less what I wrote. Sometimes you wonder...

Sorry no offence meant or intended...
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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #228 on: November 19, 2018, 01:55:49 pm »
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

if by "examine" you mean "insert" then yes, I think they would love to be able to do that.
 
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Offline xek

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #229 on: November 20, 2018, 09:20:08 am »
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2018, 09:25:31 am »
I remember someone mentioned active digital probe
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #231 on: November 20, 2018, 09:49:46 am »
I remember someone mentioned active digital probe
It is active - it was warm to the touch.
Probably similar to the other units we've seen like the R&S one - comparators with differential outputs to drive the cable, and a DAC to set the threshold.
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #232 on: November 20, 2018, 10:24:13 am »
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

?
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #233 on: November 20, 2018, 10:35:47 am »
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

?
Have they sold any 7000's yet?
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Online bitseeker

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #234 on: November 20, 2018, 03:03:43 pm »
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...

The general board layouts looked pretty similar. Their technology is related (Rigol's new silicon). Once one of them gets hacked, the other may soon follow.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #235 on: November 20, 2018, 07:03:18 pm »
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

They have sell some first.

Nobody can hack them until they have some to play with.
 

Offline Vtech

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #236 on: November 21, 2018, 01:34:27 am »
Quote
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...
MSO5000 and MSO7000 looks to be nearly identical.
I think they share:
- front end chip (rigol's beta phoenicis theoretically up to 4GHz)
- ADC (MSO5000 8GS/s, MSO7000 10GS/s, MSO8000 10GS/s, most likely same chip)
- signal acquisition chip (rigol's Ankaa)
- acquisition memory 1.25GB (on Dave's teardown photos both 7k and 5k have 5 Micron MT41K128M16JT-125IT:K (code D9PSK) 128Mx16 DDR3, that means 1.25GB of memory with maximum 16GB/s throughput)
- FPGA (Spartan 6 XC6SLX9)
- Zynq7000 FPGA+dual core ARM Cortex A9
- CPU RAM memory 512MB (2x Micorn MT41K128M16JT-125 IT:K 128Mx16 DDR3, same as acquisition memory)
- CPU FLASH 1GB (1GB Micron MT29F8G08ADADAH4-IT:D (code NW225))
- intensity grading memory? (2x NETSOL S7R321882M-EC30 2Mx18 SRAM)
- Ethernet PHY (Micrel KSZ9031RNXCC, supports Gigabit Ethernet)
- USB ULPI phy (2x SMSC USB3340), MSO7000 has additional USB hub chip on the host side (USB2514B USB2.0 high speed 4-port hub)
- settings memory (winbond 25Q128JVSQ 16MB serial NOR flash)
- AWG DACs (2x AD9744 14-bit, 210MS/s DAC)
- PLL chip (2x LMX2582 5.5GHz)

On the software side they have same:
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty
Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee@Jim) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) )

MSO5000 has slightly newer SMP PREEMPT patch (version #43 from July 2018 instead of version #35 from May 2018 that MSO7000 has)

I bet they are running exactly the same software.

On Electronica fairs Rigol showed also MSO8000 series scope. I remember it looks similar to MSO7000 except it is black like MSO5000. It has 10GS/s and 500M memory but I don't remember the bandwidth options. It is probably the same hardware as MSO7000 but for higher bandwidths. Unfortunately I don't have photos of it but I've found one picture on the net:


You can see the new scope in the upper left corner of that image.

From what I saw on the fairs, UI is much more responsive on the 5k, 7k, 8k series than older Rigols. For me, the best thing is that both 5k and 7k have really fast hardware measurements. Measurements on full 500M memory take only about a second. I bet decoders also work a lot better/faster.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #237 on: November 21, 2018, 03:18:07 am »

On Electronica fairs Rigol showed also MSO8000 series scope. I remember it looks similar to MSO7000 except it is black like MSO5000. It has 10GS/s and 500M memory but I don't remember the bandwidth options. It is probably the same hardware as MSO7000 but for higher bandwidths. Unfortunately I don't have photos of it but I've found one picture on the net:

8000 has 1 and 2 GHz bandwidth, also software unlockable.  I'm not sure, but it probably has 2 ADC, so sample rate doesn't drop to less than 5GS/sec per ch. That needs to be verified though.
They also said they are going to release soon new series that will go to 4GHz with 20GS/sec converters.  It seems their chipset is still being refined on a  hardware level.

5000, 7000, 8000 all have IDENTICAL software, trigger, decode and measurement capabilities. They handle measurements very fast, but UI is very laggy at the moment. Dragging things on a screen with a finger is a guessing game.. Although much fancier R&S 3000 series is just a bit faster, but not much, so they are not the only ones with that problem.

Rigol new series hardware seems solid and with plenty raw power. Software platform needs more work, both in optimization of UI speed, and in functions. It has 4 math channels but hey are on the same level of complexity as DS1000Z series.  But as I said, they seem to be in active development of platform, so they will be adding capabilities. They might add advanced math pack later and such.
That remains to be seen.

Regards,
 
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Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #238 on: November 21, 2018, 05:42:56 am »
Hm, if the MSO7054 already costs ~11k€ at 500MHz, I don't dare to ask what the 1GHz MSO8000 will cost. I guess t must be like 15k€ or so at least.
Honestly, who would actually pay this amount of money for a Rigol scope - given their history of not even getting the PLL right, lack of firmware updates, cheapish parts in the power supply, weird support etc. ???
E.g. the LeCroy WS 3104Z is around 12k€ (including VAT) and companies usually pay much less or get free extras (decoders etc.) if they order directly at Lecroy.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #239 on: November 21, 2018, 06:30:25 am »
Hm, if the MSO7054 already costs ~11k€ at 500MHz, I don't dare to ask what the 1GHz MSO8000 will cost. I guess t must be like 15k€ or so at least.
Honestly, who would actually pay this amount of money for a Rigol scope - given their history of not even getting the PLL right, lack of firmware updates, cheapish parts in the power supply, weird support etc. ???
E.g. the LeCroy WS 3104Z is around 12k€ (including VAT) and companies usually pay much less or get free extras (decoders etc.) if they order directly at Lecroy.
Don’t forget the WS3104Z is made by Siglent. Siglent is coming with the SDS5104X in Europe which will cost way less and much better specs than WS3000Z.
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Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #240 on: November 21, 2018, 07:03:40 am »
That's offtopic and was discussed in any possible depth before but it should be obvious for anybody that it's nonsense to think a standalone Siglent would be anyway near the result of the (unequal) cooperation with Lecroy.
Let's wait for that SDS5104X to arrive and see if it finds its niche as low cost 500MHz scope, but that's a totally different story.

The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?

Don’t forget the WS3104Z is made by Siglent. Siglent is coming with the SDS5104X in Europe which will cost way less and much better specs than WS3000Z.
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Online asmi

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #241 on: November 21, 2018, 07:33:42 am »
The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.
 
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #242 on: November 21, 2018, 07:36:17 am »
Fine, I agree with your point about active/current/differential probes. In fact the cost like or more than the oscilloscope we are talking about.
The point is that in recent years the price of oscilloscopes has dropped but not the price of the probes. in fact (for example) Micsig has had a good success with the differential probes, but for high performance and current probes we are still far away. maybe there is more technology in the probes than in the oscilloscopes? we will see what will happen in the coming years and who will be the first manufacturer that will bring true professional probes to the market at a price that is accessible to everyone.
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Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #243 on: November 21, 2018, 07:45:03 am »
The point is that used Tektronix/Agilent/Keysight/Lecroy probes can be found for a fraction of the original price and thus having an according probe connector is worth a lot. There is no market for used Rigol/Siglent active probes though and most probably there won't be one in the next years if ever.
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Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #244 on: November 21, 2018, 07:48:56 am »
That's offtopic and was discussed in any possible depth before but it should be obvious for anybody that it's nonsense to think a standalone Siglent would be anyway near the result of the (unequal) cooperation with Lecroy.
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//

Quote
Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?


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Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #245 on: November 21, 2018, 08:07:07 am »
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.

Quote
So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?
That's partly true for the new or low level stuff, usually not for the older or very expensive probes. Even the newer branded probes tend to have different specs than free market versions. Whatever that means.
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Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #246 on: November 21, 2018, 08:24:12 am »
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.
Yeah, just like it took the A brands some decades to get where they are today and it's taken the B and C brands little more than one decade.

So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?
That's partly true for the new or low level stuff, usually not for the older or very expensive probes. Even the newer branded probes tend to have different specs than free market versions. Whatever that means.
Agreed.
Fan of the old Tek passive current probes myself.....no bloody proprietary connector !
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #247 on: November 21, 2018, 08:26:53 am »
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.

I would argue that quality and reliability is on par with A brands.
They don't have features (math, analysis, PC software that is subpar), and they don't have marketing and what I call deep support (support in solutions and such).
Not even all A brands have ecosystem as developed as Keysight.

And for prices, what's with all the fuss? Prices ar funny animals, they go down easy, and then won't go up even if product is worth it. Once you drop prices and customers see you can work at that price point, they will punish you if you try to rise prices, even if it was fair increase. That is why you come out with a new product with prices that are higher and then you see how well it does, what competition does and adjust it on the fly...

I personally thing new series from Rigol are not finished products, options and function vise. They will probably develop them further, how much and how well remains to be seen.
And also remains to be seen how will prices move. Last time, it was Siglent that forced them to to drop prices for 1000Z and to include all protocols.. And Siglent 5000 series will compete with 7000 and 8000. And games continue..
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #248 on: November 21, 2018, 08:45:52 am »
Rigol = Hackable.  Thats there value proposition.  If they have removed that in the 5000/7000 then  they are no longer interesting and will onto another keysight.
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Online Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #249 on: November 21, 2018, 08:47:00 am »
Actually, Lecroy offers two new Lowcost Models in their portfolio.
Both are from Siglent, they put a LeCroy Sticker on it and double the Price....Class A Brand.. ;)
Today I play around with my SDS-1104XE from Siglent - Enhanced Resolution like the LeCroys, stable PWM visibility and a free adjustable measuring-gate….Big Points, even if you own a LeCroy WS 3000 Series scope.
We own one since 01/2018.
It´s slow, it freezes sometimes and do not have a free adjustable measuring-gate.
A shame for a so called Class-A Brand.
I´m very curious about the 5000 Rigol if this one can beat the tiny Siglent SDS 1104 which impress me much so far.
By the way, many LeCroy Products were/are labelled 3rd Party Brands, like Entry-Level Scopes or Measure Accesoires like Differential Probes.
 


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