Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 72184 times)

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Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #250 on: November 21, 2018, 09:19:33 am »


I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.

I would argue that quality and reliability is on par with A brands.

With all the reports of faulty memory on the current range of Keysight scopes.  I would argue that Rigols are actually more reliable!
 

Online bd139

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #251 on: November 21, 2018, 09:33:51 am »
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #252 on: November 21, 2018, 09:38:28 am »
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.
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Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #253 on: November 21, 2018, 09:57:16 am »
The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 09:59:25 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online bd139

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #254 on: November 21, 2018, 10:06:38 am »
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.

That is exactly it. One of the joys with Keysight is being able to just phone up Keysight, at least here in the UK and have someone helpful instantly. The three times I've had to call them they have been perfect. Can't say that for any other vendors.

Also if you rely on the kit, work on the basis that it will fail the day after the warranty expires and any time it lasts after that is a financial blessing :)
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #255 on: November 21, 2018, 07:16:04 pm »
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.

Siglent were very responsive sending out little bags of capacitors to customers after they forgot to to put them inside the 'scopes.

 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #256 on: November 22, 2018, 03:56:37 am »
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

The logic probe head almost always includes something like a differential line receiver for each signal to drive the low impedance cable back to the oscilloscope.  In older ones, this was commonly an FET buffer followed by a comparator.

The only real trick with this is that high input impedance comparators are a contradiction so full integration is difficult or impossible so separate buffering and comparator stages are required for a high impedance input.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #257 on: November 22, 2018, 04:07:58 am »
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

AES encryption is a publiclly available algorithm, so, not sure how export restrictions stop anything.   The Xilinx chipset that is running the CPU is made in Taiwan.    The NSA last time i looked did'nt have much power in taiwan.

The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #258 on: November 22, 2018, 04:46:52 am »
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.
 

Online lukier

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #259 on: November 22, 2018, 04:53:48 am »
The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.

I'm not 100% sure, but it is probably not only US DoC, Wassenaar Arrangement also puts some constraints on cypto and it was ratified by much more countries than just the US.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #260 on: November 22, 2018, 05:32:21 am »
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

Short answer: no.

It's much more than wires in the little add-on box, they're full of comparators, controller chips, voltage references, etc.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #261 on: November 22, 2018, 06:14:51 am »
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.
Then you never have handled a good tool. Like I wrote: I got burned a few times already. The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real. The B-brands only work for 90%. Great if you only need 90% but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #262 on: November 22, 2018, 08:44:44 am »
but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.
Nope, I will find a way to make do with the tools I have. I pay for that stuff with my own money, and not a single cent from my wallet will ever go to "A" brands until they change their pricing policy. And no, I don't buy used stuff as a matter of principle.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #263 on: November 22, 2018, 08:56:45 am »
Quote
The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?


If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).

Otherwise, a Lecroy WavePro scope has an deviation (timebase)of 1ppm/year, the "biggest" "Class-B" Scopes reaching 25ppm....seems really worse against the WavePro - but it´s always a matter of what You really need in the case.
As a hobbyist…
Professionals do not mind the budget.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #264 on: November 22, 2018, 09:08:19 am »
Quote
The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?

If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).
Well there are B-brand generators out there which can't do that despite having such a setting. My specific purpose is to simulate 10MHz and 1 PPS signal like it comes from a time reference.

@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 09:36:27 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jCandlish

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #265 on: November 22, 2018, 06:36:22 pm »
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Recovering a hidden private key is more fun than spending time in the legal system.

.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #266 on: November 22, 2018, 07:59:52 pm »
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Depends where that info is hosted.
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #267 on: November 22, 2018, 08:17:31 pm »
Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.
 

Online bd139

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #268 on: November 22, 2018, 08:24:38 pm »
Someone will just keep posting it on pastebin or something anyway. Good luck killing that :-//

DMCA is mostly only useful for search delisting. And you can look at the recorded DMCA complaints on the bottom of the Google page, open them up and see the listed URLs anyway.  :palm:
 

Offline jCandlish

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #269 on: November 22, 2018, 09:24:26 pm »
Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.

In spite of making life a living hell for many they chose to prosecute.



 

Offline asmi

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #270 on: November 23, 2018, 02:14:22 am »
@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason? ;D
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 04:36:12 am by asmi »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #271 on: November 23, 2018, 06:19:43 am »
@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason? ;D
No, just interested in what is coming up next and warn people not to get overly excited about the price on the sticker for something which looks cheaper on paper but turns out to be a dud. However at some point the B-brands have to catch up. That is taking longer than expected and it seems that competing on price isn't going to happen anyway (look at Rigol's MSO7000 pricing). It takes a lot of engineering to create a decent piece of equipment and sales volumes aren't very high.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 06:21:49 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #272 on: November 26, 2018, 09:08:02 am »
Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.
I´m very curious about some abilities of the Rigol 5000..
Can they display a PWM pulse stable (Rigol 1054Z doesn´t), do they have a free adjustable measure-gate, are the serial decoding functions hardware-based, will a Hi-Res/Enhanced Resolution Mode via firmware update come soon or ever, can they display the math function only ( even really old LeCroy models can do it)....
If they fulfill this requirements, I won´t care of the Mickey Mouse Design....(yes it is).
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #273 on: November 26, 2018, 03:17:50 pm »
how is the hacking effort going?  Im going to pick one up in the USA in Jan.  I've not done any reverse engineering like this before, but i suspect this is going to be signifincatly harder than the earlier models.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline supercilious

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #274 on: November 26, 2018, 08:26:55 pm »
Does anyone have any information about the ethernet or USB connectivity speed? How fast is the scope at transferring the 100M samples to a PC via SCPI or some other interface? This has been a huge bottleneck for Rigol instruments in the past.
 


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