Tariffs

[Cyclotron]

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."  --Twain again I believe

[Monkeh]

Did you notice that he pointed out the source that he found for the 120% tariff?

I did, and indeed I've seen the same document, with its lack of detail for the claims. If all you know about the fascinating history of these tariffs is some surface level detail about poultry standards which you dismiss as food elitism, perhaps your degree of research was overestimated.

I nearly fell off the floor when you asked if I knew the forum marked edits. I didn't add arguments, at least none that have a material impact on the subject I'm talking about there. I simply added one word, and it's pretty obvious. But you failed to read even the first post, so I'm sure you don't know what it is.

I did read the post, and I have no memory of it mentioning food elitism, anti-GMO, gluten, and so forth. Now perhaps I was called away before I finished reading it, or perhaps the edit was more extensive than you claim.

Indeed, you appear to have beaten me with experience. God help those you deal with day to day, I hope they're well paid.

[Cyclotron]

Did you notice that he pointed out the source that he found for the 120% tariff?

I did, and indeed I've seen the same document, with its lack of detail for the claims. If all you know about the fascinating history of these tariffs is some surface level detail about poultry standards which you dismiss as food elitism, perhaps your degree of research was overestimated.

I nearly fell off the floor when you asked if I knew the forum marked edits. I didn't add arguments, at least none that have a material impact on the subject I'm talking about there. I simply added one word, and it's pretty obvious. But you failed to read even the first post, so I'm sure you don't know what it is.

I did read the post, and I have no memory of it mentioning food elitism, anti-GMO, gluten, and so forth. Now perhaps I was called away before I finished reading it, or perhaps the edit was more extensive than you claim.

Indeed, you appear to have beaten me with experience. God help those you deal with day to day, I hope they're well paid.

You do know that plainname shortened his quote of me, right?

I mean you know people can do that ,right?

I added one word, ask an admin. You read plain names quote and that’s the root failure on your part and you’re not person enough to admit it and apologize.

It is precisely elitist as there’s no science showing any issues with the food. 

[Someone]

The history of the UK's 125% tariffs on US agricultural products is fascinating.

Perhaps you could clue us up, then. I couldn't find any info on it except from a Whitehouse document (which all other sources seem to quote from). There is no detail. Couldn't find any history.

Only thing I am aware of is that chlorinated chicken has been banned for quite some time (and I am sure it's an absolute ban, not a tariff masquerading as a ban).

Besides tariffs, there are other common trade barriers.
There are bans on certain agricultural products (such as chlorinated chicken) for health reasons.
Japan effectively bans imported rice to protect its rice farmers.
Trump mis-quoted Canada's tariff rate on US dairy:  it is really a negotiated quota, where the large tariff kicks in at a rate of import well above recent history.

What are the “health” reasons? I can only find food elitist reasons.

Pretty much the same health reasons why US bans raw milk:
https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get-eat-delicious-raw-milk-cheese
Different countries draw different lines in the sand, but it's not all one way like the US'ians are trying to make out.

[Cyclotron]

Indeed, you appear to have beaten me with experience. God help those you deal with day to day, I hope they're well paid.

Can I get a new name from your spaghetti monster god?
Oh plz name me and millions of others.

[Cyclotron]

The history of the UK's 125% tariffs on US agricultural products is fascinating.

Perhaps you could clue us up, then. I couldn't find any info on it except from a Whitehouse document (which all other sources seem to quote from). There is no detail. Couldn't find any history.

Only thing I am aware of is that chlorinated chicken has been banned for quite some time (and I am sure it's an absolute ban, not a tariff masquerading as a ban).

Besides tariffs, there are other common trade barriers.
There are bans on certain agricultural products (such as chlorinated chicken) for health reasons.
Japan effectively bans imported rice to protect its rice farmers.
Trump mis-quoted Canada's tariff rate on US dairy:  it is really a negotiated quota, where the large tariff kicks in at a rate of import well above recent history.

What are the “health” reasons? I can only find food elitist reasons.

Pretty much the same health reasons why US bans raw milk:
https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get-eat-delicious-raw-milk-cheese
Different countries draw different lines in the sand, but it's not all one way like the US'ians are trying to make out.

So bull crap reasons.  Thank you for being honest.

Btw, I grew up on a farm and I guess I got raw milk which must be illegal.  Who knew?

[Monkeh]

https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get-eat-delicious-raw-milk-cheese

Fascinating. Why is Europe not tariffing the US heavily for restricting its free trade of raw milk produced cheeses and unfairly disadvantaging companies? (note: I don't know if they are or not. Yes, I know the UK has placed various tariffs and other measures on various products.. no specifics because I haven't bothered to research them, mind, but is it for that reason? We're.. not looking to sell the US chickens, for example. We'd like to keep producing our own, rather than destroy our industries for their benefit, though. Or at least some of us would, Starmer has sold several out.)

Oh, because they have no reasonable expectation of the US adopting their standards for their benefit. Now if only the US would stop expecting that from everyone else.

[tautech]

Btw, I grew up on a farm and I guess I got raw milk which must be illegal.  Who knew?

Which is normal in country life however in NZ it is illegal to sell unpasteurized milk or its products.
Seen several boutique outfits doing it and they all get shut down in short order.

[Cyclotron]

https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get-eat-delicious-raw-milk-cheese

Fascinating. Why is Europe not tariffing the US heavily for restricting its free trade of raw milk produced cheeses and unfairly disadvantaging companies? (note: I don't know if they are or not. Yes, I know the UK has placed various tariffs and other measures on various products.. no specifics because I haven't bothered to research them, mind, but is it for that reason? We're.. not looking to sell the US chickens, for example. We'd like to keep producing our own, rather than destroy our industries for their benefit, though. Or at least some of us would, Starmer has sold several out.)

Oh, because they have no reasonable expectation of the US adopting their standards for their benefit. Now if only the US would stop expecting that from everyone else.

Finally some honesty from the name caller.  You don’t care but only to call names and critique other nations.  The good news is that since the UK has capitulated and signed a trade deal with the devil.  You can now suck down some juicy chicken or be a food elitist.  Well, I don’t know if they will label it.

I did enjoy the irony of you setting expectations for the US to stop setting expectations.  You can’t make this up.

[Someone]

Finally some honesty from the name caller.  You don’t care but only to call names and critique other nations.  The good news is that since the UK has capitulated and signed a trade deal with the devil.  You can now suck down some juicy chicken or be a food elitist.

Juicy is orthogonal to chlorinated, you're the one pushing disingenuous agreements and getting upset when people call it out for what it is.

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

[Cyclotron]

Btw, I grew up on a farm and I guess I got raw milk which must be illegal.  Who knew?

Which is normal in country life however in NZ it is illegal to sell unpasteurized milk or its products.
Seen several boutique outfits doing it and they all get shut down in short order.

My brother retired from the air force and purchased a farm back home. He raises chickens and sells the eggs.  You can still buy unwashed eggs and milk at farmers markets. But, due to liability and lawsuits lots of standards are applied to commercial agricultural products.  It could even be big pharma making it more difficult for small farms. 

I know you can leave unwashed chicken eggs unwashed out on the table for days. But the commercial ones will stay fresh for a couple months in the fridge.

I feel conflicted about food products being overly sanitized. The need to feed the worlds population is real and the poor can’t afford boutique food.

[Cyclotron]

Finally some honesty from the name caller.  You don’t care but only to call names and critique other nations.  The good news is that since the UK has capitulated and signed a trade deal with the devil.  You can now suck down some juicy chicken or be a food elitist.

Juicy is orthogonal to chlorinated, you're the one pushing disingenuous agreements and getting upset when people call it out for what it is.

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

Awe, you really do care. It’s ok, you got me in the feels but I didn’t get upset. The point was made that lots of countries make ridiculous reasons to hinder trade. The current administration ran on a platform of trade reform and the voters expect that reform to be in the US’s favor. As surprised as I am over a politician doing what they said they would do in their campaign, that’s pretty much what is happening in the US on tariffs.

What’s up with tariffs in the UK?

[Cyclotron]

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

Since you are claiming something that isn’t a fact and following the science show it is perfectly safe it is either ignorant fear or elitist.

[TimFox]

Finally some honesty from the name caller.  You don’t care but only to call names and critique other nations.  The good news is that since the UK has capitulated and signed a trade deal with the devil.  You can now suck down some juicy chicken or be a food elitist.

Juicy is orthogonal to chlorinated, you're the one pushing disingenuous agreements and getting upset when people call it out for what it is.

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

Awe, you really do care. It’s ok, you got me in the feels but I didn’t get upset. The point was made that lots of countries make ridiculous reasons to hinder trade. The current administration ran on a platform of trade reform and the voters expect that reform to be in the US’s favor. As surprised as I am over a politician doing what they said they would do in their campaign, that’s pretty much what is happening in the US on tariffs.

What’s up with tariffs in the UK?

See my reply 1845 above.

[Monkeh]

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

Indeed. In this specific example, we (the UK, the EU, and probably many others) consider keeping chickens in such poor conditions that they're virtually guaranteed to harbour significant harmful bacterial infections and then relying on a proven to be only partially effective chlorine washing process is an unacceptable alternative to effective vaccination and clean conditions. And somehow, chicken continues to be widely available and a staple, and average monthly food spends comparable if not lower..

E: Oh, and the estimate in the US is one in six people get food poisoning every year. In the UK, the estimate is one in twelve. There are of course likely to be differences in how those are estimated. Another number of course is fatalities caused by foodborne illness, in the US, around 3000 per year. In the UK, around 180. The population of the US is approximately 5 times that of the UK, so, carry the one.. three times the fatality rate. We must be doing something right? Maybe we just cook more thoroughly (he says, enjoying his steak on the rare side).

[Cyclotron]

Finally some honesty from the name caller.  You don’t care but only to call names and critique other nations.  The good news is that since the UK has capitulated and signed a trade deal with the devil.  You can now suck down some juicy chicken or be a food elitist.

Juicy is orthogonal to chlorinated, you're the one pushing disingenuous agreements and getting upset when people call it out for what it is.

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

Awe, you really do care. It’s ok, you got me in the feels but I didn’t get upset. The point was made that lots of countries make ridiculous reasons to hinder trade. The current administration ran on a platform of trade reform and the voters expect that reform to be in the US’s favor. As surprised as I am over a politician doing what they said they would do in their campaign, that’s pretty much what is happening in the US on tariffs.

What’s up with tariffs in the UK?

See my reply 1845 above.

I did bookmark that for when I’m back on the ground with more bandwidth. It refused to open for me a while ago.

I likely won’t get time until maybe later in the weekend.  I want to check out a local hamfest tomorrow and I’m itching to get back on a couple of projects on my bench.

[Cyclotron]

Wanting food that is handled safely is not elitist, different people draw different lines as what they consider acceptable.

Indeed. In this specific example, we (the UK, the EU, and probably many others) consider keeping chickens in such poor conditions that they're virtually guaranteed to harbour significant harmful bacterial infections and then relying on a proven to be only partially effective chlorine washing process is an unacceptable alternative to effective vaccination and clean conditions. And somehow, chicken continues to be widely available and a staple, and average monthly food spends comparable if not lower..

Look at who’s been reading. I bet all those vaccines taste yummy. Still, so anti-science of you lot.

Adding, do you space out your corn too?  No gmo in that corn right? Plants have feels.

[vk6zgo]

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."  --Twain again I believe

"A clever ignoramus is still an ignoramus"----me, I believe!

[Cyclotron]

https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/08/08/who-got-the-best-trade-deal-with-the-us-the-eu-or-uk

I suppose google is listening. Popped up in my feed.  Looks like the EU is bragging about getting a better deal with the devil than the UK did.

[Zero999]

Vaccines are good and have saved countless lives, but some have stronger evidence behind them than others. Vaccination policy varies from country to country and over time, depending on the cost and risk vs benefit ratio. For example, in the UK, children used to be routinely vaccinated against tuberculosis, but it was stopped back in 2003, because there are so few cases of TB the cost and risk of adverse events of the vaccine didn't justify it.

Lack of genetic diversity, intensive monoculture are issues with plants, not just animals, but don't pose the same issues to human health, because plant pathogens can't jump to humans.

There's nothing wrong with raw milk, as long as the milk and cattle are routinely tested for nasty diseases such as TB and it's clearly labelled so the consumer knows what it is. Ideally it should have a lable warning "Not to be consumed by pregnant woman, unless cooked.". People should have the choice.

Where I live all eggs are unwashed. I get mine from a local farm shop. They keep for weeks in my kitchen cupboard. There's nothing wrong with washed eggs, but unwashed are more environmentally friendly, as less energy is required to process and store them.

[tggzzz]

There's nothing wrong with raw milk, as long as the milk and cattle are routinely tested for nasty diseases such as TB and it's clearly labelled so the consumer knows what it is.

If only it was that simple.

One of my distant relatives on the Isle of Wight (a prison governor, so not stupid) narrowly escaped having large parts of his body removed. He had a mystery illness for a year and was about to have his lymph nodes removed but fortunately his wife (a nurse) asked "I didn't know there there any lymph involvement?" Cue an embarrassed "no".

Eventually it was traced to brucellosis from green top (i.e. unpasteurised) milk, the standard on that isolated island.

[Zero999]

There's nothing wrong with raw milk, as long as the milk and cattle are routinely tested for nasty diseases such as TB and it's clearly labelled so the consumer knows what it is.

If only it was that simple.

One of my distant relatives on the Isle of Wight (a prison governor, so not stupid) narrowly escaped having large parts of his body removed. He had a mystery illness for a year and was about to have his lymph nodes removed but fortunately his wife (a nurse) asked "I didn't know there there any lymph involvement?" Cue an embarrassed "no".

Eventually it was traced to brucellosis from green top (i.e. unpasteurised) milk, the standard on that isolated island.

A person has died from eating an E. coli contaminated salad.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1xl518w8do

Then there's the fact that cigarettes and alcohol have taken far more many lives.

There's also a difference between having raw milk as standard and permitting it, along with appropriate labelling and warnings.

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

[PlainName]

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

'adult' != 'polymath'

There is a reason why ingredients lists use safe-sounding names instead of well-known ones. And that's after manufacturers were forced to list ingredients so that 'adults' better knew what they were eating.

You need to be particularly anal to go through the supermarket's chicken shelves and figure out the potential for how the chickens were raised, if they've been treated with antibiotics just to get them to live long enough to die for the plate, etc. The labeling, if it even gives a clue, aims not to make it easy.

And that's discounting the straight out lying, for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

[Zero999]

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

'adult' != 'polymath'

There is a reason why ingredients lists use safe-sounding names instead of well-known ones. And that's after manufacturers were forced to list ingredients so that 'adults' better knew what they were eating.

You need to be particularly anal to go through the supermarket's chicken shelves and figure out the potential for how the chickens were raised, if they've been treated with antibiotics just to get them to live long enough to die for the plate, etc. The labeling, if it even gives a clue, aims not to make it easy.

And that's discounting the straight out lying, for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

What's that got to do with permitting small quantities of raw milk being sold? I'm not talking about small print, but proper labelling on the front of the bottle.

[tggzzz]

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

'adult' != 'polymath'

There is a reason why ingredients lists use safe-sounding names instead of well-known ones. And that's after manufacturers were forced to list ingredients so that 'adults' better knew what they were eating.

You need to be particularly anal to go through the supermarket's chicken shelves and figure out the potential for how the chickens were raised, if they've been treated with antibiotics just to get them to live long enough to die for the plate, etc. The labeling, if it even gives a clue, aims not to make it easy.

And that's discounting the straight out lying, for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

What's that got to do with permitting small quantities of raw milk being sold? I'm not talking about small print, but proper labelling on the front of the bottle.

So, you want to be able to choose between food stuffs known to be dangerous and equivalent food stuffs known to be safe? Why stop there? Why don't you want go back a century, when milk was regularly adulterated and was one of the more dangerous foods you could buy? (FFI see how/why "flowers of sulphur" were used)

Most people live in ignorance - you included - and prefer not to have to worry about that, leaving them to spend their lives more productively.

If the front panel labelling says "chicken bacteria partially washed off with a WW1 poison gas", then you might have a point. Of course the MSFM would never put it like that. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, the UK regulations permit foreign meats to be sold as British if they were last processed in this country.