CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters

[metrologist]

ive always regarded them as overpriced as there are lots of other cheaper ways to measure rf power,way overrated if you ask me.

Introduced in the 1950's, a quite appropriate and effective measurement solution. Compare to modern day equivalents in fancy mechanical watches like Rolex or less, where accuracy is around 1 sec/day.

[joeqsmith]

Not sure what inline Watts and watches have to do with one another.  Bird is going to set you back a $1000+ with elements.   Looks like a cheap Rolex is around $6000.   

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex/how-much-is-a-rolex

1 second out of 24 hours or 86,400 seconds is much tighter than the Birds +/-5% of full scale.  And that's assuming you purchased slugs that make use of the full scale.    Also, hardly the level of craftsmanship.   I'm sure there was a point.

I've owned a few watches over the years.   First ones were Timex.  Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.  I had a Busherer that spent more time in the shop than on my wrist.  Had a few other higher end watches but I am back to lower end.   I still own one of my old Timex watches from the 70s.  I wonder how accurate it is compared with my current watch.  Both are full mechanical.  None of that battery stuff. 

[metrologist]

I shouldn't have mentioned a specific watch brand, but the point was to differentiate the technology. The Bird meter has a place just like old-school mechanical watches and clocks.

In the 1950's, what would have been better options? Of course today, if timekeeping is the point, a $5 ebay quartz watch is going to keep better time than any mechanical watch, but people still buy mechanical watches for more expense and hassle.

[joeqsmith]

I shouldn't have mentioned a specific watch brand, but the point was to differentiate the technology. The Bird meter has a place just like old-school mechanical watches and clocks.

In the 1950's, what would have been better options? Of course today, if timekeeping is the point, a $5 ebay quartz watch is going to keep better time than any mechanical watch, but people still buy mechanical watches for more expense and hassle.

So if I am following your watch vs Bird meter correctly,  hams and CBers still buy Bird meters for their higher expense and hassle, where they would have got better results with a cheap ebay Watt/SWR meter?   I did try a low cost Chinese Watt meter for the fun of it. 

I believe watches are a dyeing product obsoleted by the cell phone, much how I view ham radio.  The cell phone requires no license to operate and is superior in pretty much every way to the hams with their 2meter blah and their repeaters.     

[joeqsmith]

The comparison was the Bird meter (old tech) vs. modern alternatives. What are they and how do they compare? I think some were mentioned earlier but the thread is long.

And getting longer thanks to your discussion of watches.

What would be the best alternative? I'm sure nothing from the big 3 T&M companies make anything to relate, and cost for such would be Rolex money.

Bird is the gold standard. No other manufacture compares.   

In this thread, you're capping on the Bird meter for its shortcomings, and apparently its price, while mocking the folks using them.

It you took the time to read it,  it's more about the ham and CBers belief that it is the gold standard. 

Now your comparing ham radio vs. modern communication alternatives.

Actually you were comparing watches to Watt meters and I was trying to figure out what the two have in common.

You know the hams will say, when all else fails, ham radio works. 
Get the T: https://www.zazzle.com/when_all_else_fails_ham_radio_works_amateur_radio_t_shirt-256314002567120296 

Here you go, Mr. Cell Phone: https://makezine.com/article/maker-news/the-great-nepali-radio-shake-up/

Hard to roll this in when the streets are all buckled: https://cellsitesolutions.com/products/cell-on-wheels
(I know, there will be air drops, eventually)

The one ham that lived there was too fat and old to get out before the disaster struck.  Along with his Bird meter and antenna, he's buried in the rubble.   Meanwhile everyone else is using their cell phones.   

Anyhow, I think I would like a good Bird meter and a set of slugs, but I settled for some MFJ/Aries and similar gear.

It would be fun to do a shootout with the Bird meter against my home made one.   Then again, a lot of work flipping and swapping those elements and pulling out my calculator.   No thanks...

If I ever fix that cheap Chinese RS-70 meter, I'll make another video comparing the two. 

[metrologist]

Yes, but you're not limited to early 50's technology, and generalizing a population segment is flawed.

Can you help me find which pages you published performance data of your meter? Do you have a specifications sheet? If you commercialize your meter, maybe I'll buy it instead, but it can't be bird money. 

[chriswebb]

I shouldn't have mentioned a specific watch brand, but the point was to differentiate the technology. The Bird meter has a place just like old-school mechanical watches and clocks.

In the 1950's, what would have been better options? Of course today, if timekeeping is the point, a $5 ebay quartz watch is going to keep better time than any mechanical watch, but people still buy mechanical watches for more expense and hassle.

So if I am following your watch vs Bird meter correctly,  hams and CBers still buy Bird meters for their higher expense and hassle, where they would have got better results with a cheap ebay Watt/SWR meter?   I did try a low cost Chinese Watt meter for the fun of it. 

I believe watches are a dyeing product obsoleted by the cell phone, much how I view ham radio.  The cell phone requires no license to operate and is superior in pretty much every way to the hams with their 2meter blah and their repeaters.   

It's OK not to understand a hobby, but no need to be condescending with your ignorance.

[joeqsmith]

Yes, but you're not limited to early 50's technology, and generalizing a population segment is flawed.

Can you help me find which pages you published performance data of your meter? Do you have a specifications sheet? If you commercialize your meter, maybe I'll buy it instead, but it can't be bird money. 

No problem, I'm used to spoon feeding the hams.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/cb-and-ham-radio-techs-love-their-bird-wattmeters/msg4338097/#msg4338097

There's a video of it in operation.  There is no spec sheet or written documentation outside of what was posted here.  I've never thought about selling any products. 

[joeqsmith]

It's OK not to understand a hobby, but no need to be condescending with your ignorance.

Hams are saving the world!  It's not just a hobby, its a way of life!

[metrologist]

No problem, I'm used to spoon feeding the hams.

  Some of them need a little help now and then. They are, after all, amateurs.

You should edit your first post to add links to some of the important posts.

[joeqsmith]

You should edit your first post to add links to some of the important posts.

I've done that with the thread I started for the NanoVNA software and my multi-meter testing.  This thread, being mostly humor, I'm not sure what would be important.   Maybe BD139's talks of bar fights over Bird Watts and floozies.

At least for my own Wattmeter construction, there really isn't anything worth linking.   It's a couple of Analog Devices Log detectors and some software.   Mathwise, the most complex thing I am doing is a 5th order polynomial fit for my simulated Bird graphics.   The only real meat on the bone was my home made directional coupler.  The coupler is the heart of the Watt/VSWR meter and where I spend all the time.  Video shows some of the data. 
 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/cb-and-ham-radio-techs-love-their-bird-wattmeters/msg4258117/#msg4258117

[xrunner]

Got side-tracked again with a repair of an rf power sensor. Here's the thread if you're interested -

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/boonton-41-4b-power-sensor-repair-advice/

Now I'm back to this project. I'm turning to the rear panel now. I need to have holes for two SO-239 panel connectors, a reset switch, and an opening to the back of the Due board for power and USB. Otherwise it's the same basic panel I've already printed.

[xrunner]

Rear panel initial prototype design to test print tomorrow. Holes for rf in & out, reset, and rear connections for Due.

Included some venting in case the ham tries to pump 1 kW through it. 

[A.Z.]

are the ventings there  to allow the "magic smoke" to exit ?

[p.larner]

these are the snap on spanners in the rf world=american,look nice  and work but hugely over rated and cost 6x what goes into them.

[joeqsmith]

these are the snap on spanners in the rf world=american,look nice  and work but hugely over rated and cost 6x what goes into them.

I have a few friends who are professional mechanics who have told me that they are easier on their hands, smoother operation, better quality. 

With the hams and CBers, I would think they want to know VSWR as well as power.  The Bird, requiring the various slug, having to flip them, calculate by hand and your still only +/-5% of full scale.   I don't see how one would compare with Snap-on tools.   

[joeqsmith]

Rear panel initial prototype design to test print tomorrow. Holes for rf in & out, reset, and rear connections for Due.

Included some venting in case the ham tries to pump 1 kW through it. 

Any concerns with the printed part cracking when the half inch thick cables are attached, tightened and then being moved?

[xrunner]

are the ventings there  to allow the "magic smoke" to exit ?

Yes. My purpose was to see if you were thinking about this, to see if you could understand some basic design principles. You're getting better, but not quite there yet.

You see, I posted that rear panel picture, but left off an important design aspect to see if you would realize it. The rf input connectors need to have a reinforced area around them for strength. Who knows what coax cable the hams might use, and the area at that point would be a little too thin for the force of cables pulling on the connector. Now, you can see in the new picture, I have the area around where the connectors are a thicker dimension. You clearly missed commenting on that, which shows that you are a little too impatient with your observations. The actual rear faceplate pic is attached.

I think the best path forward for you is to keep following what Joe and I are doing here, and take in as much knowledge as you possibly can. We have much to give, and we have great hopes for your future capabilities. I'm sure you won't disappoint us. 

Any concerns with the printed part cracking when the half inch thick cables are attached, tightened and then being moved?

Funny story - new ham around here a few years ago didn't know much about coax. He asked what kind he should use to go from his garage to his antenna. Everybody told him to get the best coax he could afford with the lowest loss. So what did he order? LMR-600. He didn't consider the difficulty of running that garden hose because he didn't look at the size of it. For you who don't know it's 0.6 inches in dia. sorta like a garden hose. But he didn't return it. He actually busted his a$$ and ran the stuff because he didn't want to be embarrassed telling us he made a mistake. It was a job he said he'd never forget. 

But yea, of course I have concerns about handing it over to most of the hams I know for any number of reasons. Let me get one into the field and see how long it lasts. If they bust the rear panel I can use that as a data point for further design enhancements. 

[Mark19960]

No problem, I'm used to spoon feeding the hams.

Spoon feeding the hams is a lot easier than spoon feeding the CBers.
If you do not heap praise on the Bird 43 the CBers lose their minds...
At least with hams, a lot more of the understand that the truth is what the facts are, where CBers... feeling matters more than facts.

[xrunner]

Thinking more about local hams getting hold of my meter is freaking me out right now. I went back and added even more reinforcing on the back panel! 

[joeqsmith]

No problem, I'm used to spoon feeding the hams.

Spoon feeding the hams is a lot easier than spoon feeding the CBers.

That has not been my experience.  I don't think I have ran into a CBer ever asking anything technical, or anything at all.  Certainly some CB operators play with electronics and construct RF projects but it may be a very small segment.  We just don't seem to cross paths.  Guessing with the hams being required to memorize ohms law long enough to pass their exam, it increases the chances.   

If you do not heap praise on the Bird 43 the CBers lose their minds...
At least with hams, a lot more of the understand that the truth is what the facts are, where CBers... feeling matters more than facts.

Hard to say. Certainly there are a few examples in this thread of hams posting their feelings on the matter.   IMO, the manual is pretty clear and I imagine if someone knows what thay are doing, will get numbers within the publish specs.  It's that cheap Chinese meter I looked at that doesn't even come close to meeting their published spec.   One day I'll do something with it. 

[joeqsmith]

Thinking more about local hams getting hold of my meter is freaking me out right now. I went back and added even more reinforcing on the back panel! 

    If it's just for you, I wouldn't worry too much.

When I was a ham I was using RG8U.  I have some RG393 which has similar loss but a lot less flexible.  Same 0.4" diameter.    I think if you were to attach this stuff to a printed plastic case, it would be very easy to crack it. 

https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG393-U.pdf

That Chinese Nissei meter has some sort of cast metal case with threaded connectors which are in-line.  Guessing the idea was to reduce the bends in the cable and have enough strength to support some RG8U.     

One thing about that meter, note their use of a somewhat air dielectric.  If they make a decent N to mate this rather than my cheap Amazon adapters, it may be interesting to see if these perform better than the standard UHF connectors I have on-hand.  Maybe you could find a source for panel mount ones that would work for your meter.

[xrunner]

  If it's just for you, I wouldn't worry too much.

I'm good at worrying, it's one of my specialties. 

When I was a ham I was using RG8U.  I have some RG393 which has similar loss but a lot less flexible.  Same 0.4" diameter.    I think if you were to attach this stuff to a printed plastic case, it would be very easy to crack it. 

The main issue with large diameter coax isn't so much it will break the rear panel or connectors. It's the fact that it won't allow you to simply place a small light meter on a desk and have it stay in place. Heck even a small mobile transceiver won't easily just sit there right where you want it. I have LMR-400 connected to my VHF/UHF FTM-100D and I had to strap the coax onto the leg of the table and get the bend just right for the radio to sit where I wanted it. I had a Daiwa SWR meter in-line at one time and it was a bear to get the coax to connect in a way that didn't pull the little meter to one side or the other. You have to strap the coax down and when you do that, there isn't really a lot of stress on a little metal box.

Now think of LMR-600 ... that ham I told you about must have C clamps holding it in place wherever he has his radio

[joeqsmith]

Once the cable starts pulling all the equipment off the table, there's some stress.   

[xrunner]

Once the cable starts pulling all the equipment off the table, there's some stress.    /watch?v=JgMVYEoA1Zc[/url]

Oops! Maybe I should ship you my meter for durability tests. 

Rear panel finished. The extra horizontal rib really makes it strong. Not to say a gorilla can't rip the connectors out of there, but the strength ain't bad for plastic. That should conclude all of the 3D printed design I need to do, but if need be I can do more.