Magnova oscilloscope

[KungFuJosh]

But again, Tesla did not promise nor advertised an early adopter price reduction for a limited time.

Batronix did and put a deadline on it.

So what? At the time the % was accurate based on their plans, and since then they changed their plans...and the price you paid is still less than the new retail pricing. Pricing on technology changes. That's the way it goes. Siglent dropped the price of the SDS2000X HD significantly within I think the first year.

If I were you, I'd be more concerned with making sure Magnova remains a viable and profitable venture for them. If they bankrupt themselves giving free shit away, then you lose future updates and support too.

[tautech]

But again, Tesla did not promise nor advertised an early adopter price reduction for a limited time.

Batronix did and put a deadline on it.

So what? At the time the % was accurate based on their plans, and since then they changed their plans...and the price you paid is still less than the new retail pricing. Pricing on technology changes. That's the way it goes. Siglent dropped the price of the SDS2000X HD significantly within I think the first year.

If I were you, I'd be more concerned with making sure Magnova remains a viable and profitable venture for them. If they bankrupt themselves giving free shit away, then you lose future updates and support too.

That was certainly unfortunate for some but not a result of end market forces.

12bit ADC's were expensive but now the world has gone that way their prices have come down significantly.

[Martin72]

Thats different from Batronix who explicitely announced an exclusive, onetime offer.

Again, that was true at the time.
You paid 30% less than the original price at the time.
Did you seriously expect to pay 30% less than others forever?
Prices can change over time, that's a completely natural thing.
I have to be honest and say that I expected a lower price, given the pond they want to fish in.
And who knows, maybe the prices will be adjusted again in the next months/year and reach the level you paid – would you still be angry about that?
Or to put it another way, what do you expect from Batronix now?
It can't be compensation, as you haven't suffered any damage.

[KungFuJosh]

That was certainly unfortunate for some but not a result of end market forces.

12bit ADC's were expensive but now the world has gone that way their prices have come down significantly.

Sure, but the end result is the same. Some people paid nearly twice as much as others did for the same base model.

[nctnico]

I would also like to see something like that from other manufacturers (cough, cough)...

Keysight increases prices after introduction. The power supply (with a free, high-end handheld DMM included) and a 6.5 digit bench DMM went up in price significantly since I bought these.

In the past I've also been bitten by Siglent's price reduction strategy. Buy a half baked product for a premium price and then it gets a 30% discount

[KungFuJosh]

Keysight increases prices after introduction.

Seems they did that inversely proportional with their reliability...or so I've heard. 😉😉

[ebastler]

The  so called 30% reduction is now something like 7%. Just a few months after introduction.

For that price, I could easily have bought a Siglent 3000HD with is on another level.

I don't follow your logic. How does the price change for the Magnova affect your ability (or decision) to buy a Siglent, at whatever time?

[woody]

The  so called 30% reduction is now something like 7%. Just a few months after introduction.

For that price, I could easily have bought a Siglent 3000HD with is on another level.

I don't follow your logic. How does the price change for the Magnova affect your ability (or decision) to buy a Siglent, at whatever time?

Probably the endowment effect meeting loss aversion 

[Sorama]

Let me be clear: of course prices can change and I have no issue with that.
I do have an issue if one says there is a one time opportunity and for that you have to buy before a certain date.
It is an exclusive offer.

If only a few weeks later it turns out that almost anyone can buy the exact same scope for only 200€ more than the so called One Time Opportunity buy, then it is misleading.

Misleading customers is a crime in consumer law.
Just mentioning.

[Sorama]

The  so called 30% reduction is now something like 7%. Just a few months after introduction.

For that price, I could easily have bought a Siglent 3000HD with is on another level.

I don't follow your logic. How does the price change for the Magnova affect your ability (or decision) to buy a Siglent, at whatever time?

Because it was a so called opportunity with a time constraint.

Now it turns out it was not an opportunity.
It seems the price setting of magnova scopes was not in line with the market, considering the alternatives.

[ebastler]

Because it was a so called opportunity with a time constraint.

Now it turns out it was not an opportunity.
It seems the price setting of magnova scopes was not in line with the market, considering the alternatives.

You bought the Magnova at the time, surely after carefully considering its merits vs. the price you were asked to pay. Batronix has not asked you to pay extra money after the fact, and they have added value to the scope by adding new firmware functionality. So if anything, you actually got a better deal now than what you saw at the time of purchase.

The only thing you have lost is that feeling of superiority -- "I was smarter than most guys and got a much better price".

[Sorama]

again, it is not about that.
And certainly not about "superiority ".

It's about saying that there is an exclusivity in price if you buy before a certain date while a few weeks later it turns out it was not an exclusivity.

That is, in consumer law, misleading and not allowed.

[ebastler]

It's about saying that there is an exclusivity in price if you buy before a certain date while a few weeks later it turns out it was not an exclusivity.

That is, in consumer law, misleading and not allowed.

I don't think that is the case under EU consumer laws. Vendors cannot claim that they are giving a discount vs. a prior, more expensive price if that prior price is not real. But I am not aware of any obligations or limitations on future pricing.

[Tomki]

Hello and Happy New Year to everyone !
I have got a suggestion on the subject of triggers:
The, let's say "very thin" Magnova manual does not give any explanation for the use of triggers - just a list. So I looked at the manuals of other oscilloscope manufacturers and also at Dave's videos on the EEVblog and came across video #685 (https://youtu.be/y5aAjd9YPok).
Not that I have often missed these trigger options so far, but if they are standard elsewhere (even on cheaper devices), I wonder whether it would not be useful or desirable for the Magnova as well.
1. Triggers can usually be coupled AC or DC, although AC coupling is the usual option. This is apparently not possible with the Magnova. The trigger coupling is always "DC", i.e. a selected voltage value. This means that the trigger is lost if I switch between signals with different DC offsets.
2. There is no "alternate" or "OR" trigger (the latter only via pattern trigger). This means that you cannot trigger signals with a runtime difference that would allow the signals to be compared at the same trigger position.
3. Would an alternate timebase be desirable?
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
Regards Thomas

Gents
Besides the discussion about the price (which also applies to myself), does anybody have an opinion on the trigger issues?
Regards Thomas

[Martin72]

Hello Thomas,
I will comment on this when I take the Magnova back home with me.
Basically, I assume that the last word has not yet been spoken by Batronix in some equipment matters.
They have repeatedly emphasized that features that are currently missing will be added later.
This will also be the case with the trigger types, IMHO.
The scope is not yet "finished" in this respect. 
Manual:
I had told batronix early on that the "manual" is more of a quickstart guide format, so they should have that on screen.

[Tomki]

Hello Martin
You're right - Magnova will continue to grow in terms of functionality!
I exchanged emails with Batronix about the poorly implemented math channels - and that I think that this should be prioritized. Batronix says that priority will be given to the number of user requests e.g. in "forums" among other things - and that there aren't that many in regard to the math channels. That's why I'm soliciting votes here, so to speak. But if there's little interest otherwise, then that's just the way it is.
Regards Thomas

[nctnico]

Hello and Happy New Year to everyone !
I have got a suggestion on the subject of triggers:
The, let's say "very thin" Magnova manual does not give any explanation for the use of triggers - just a list. So I looked at the manuals of other oscilloscope manufacturers and also at Dave's videos on the EEVblog and came across video #685 (https://youtu.be/y5aAjd9YPok).
Not that I have often missed these trigger options so far, but if they are standard elsewhere (even on cheaper devices), I wonder whether it would not be useful or desirable for the Magnova as well.
1. Triggers can usually be coupled AC or DC, although AC coupling is the usual option. This is apparently not possible with the Magnova. The trigger coupling is always "DC", i.e. a selected voltage value. This means that the trigger is lost if I switch between signals with different DC offsets.
2. There is no "alternate" or "OR" trigger (the latter only via pattern trigger). This means that you cannot trigger signals with a runtime difference that would allow the signals to be compared at the same trigger position.
3. Would an alternate timebase be desirable?
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
Regards Thomas

Gents
Besides the discussion about the price (which also applies to myself), does anybody have an opinion on the trigger issues?
Regards Thomas

Alternate trigger can be useful every now and then. One of the reasons I keep my GW Instek scope around. It is a rare feature though. One of the downsides is that the traces are not related as they are acquired one by one instead of simultaneously. An interesting option would be to be able to split the screen and have two (or more) grids each with their own time base and trigger source.

About trigger levels: A feature I like on the R&S RTM3004 is that pushing the trigger level knob executes an auto-level for the trigger.

[2N3055]

About trigger levels: A feature I like on the R&S RTM3004 is that pushing the trigger level knob executes an auto-level for the trigger.

That is not that unusual. Keysight and Siglent does that too.

[Martin72]

But if there's little interest otherwise, then that's just the way it is.

How many of those who write here own a Magnova...
Or say to themselves, if this feature is added now, I'll buy one.
If I were Batronix, I wouldn't want to make a decision based on a vote among a handful of people as to whether and which feature will be implemented, but rather base it on the standard for this price range, plus, as an “inducement”, perhaps one or two more features that would be rather unusual for the class.

[Sorama]

As Batronix is new in the game, they do have to offer more functionality , or better implementation for equal or less price setting.
Otherwise there is no reason to buy something from a manufacturer which zero experience in scope development and production.

They will have somehow to proof their product is much better than the competition which consists of many brands with a good track record.
Being just cheaper won’t do it.
Hell, they are even more expensive 😬

[Martin72]

More expensive than what/who?
You can get a Magnova for just under €3000.
If we ignore the low bandwidth of 100Mhz, then you get outstanding workmanship, a large 15” full hd display, a very low-noise frontend with active probe support and 12-bit converters for the money.
In addition, it is very fast in terms of basic performance.
The software left out because still expandable, there are few models that are on par with it at this price, actually none.
Micsig maybe, but I don't know them and it's doubtful that their workmanship is on par.
Not to mention the support.
The price is fine with me.
But I also asked early on in this thread which target group the scope was intended to appeal to.
And I think I've found an answer to that in the meantime.
I took the Magnova to work and left it to my colleagues in development.
And they like it so much that they are seriously considering ordering two or three of them.
The scope is dead quiet, doesn't take up much desk space despite the large screen, and the side ports, which I don't like at all, are very practical for them.
Testing a circuit on the desk in the office, without having to go to the lab...
And additionally the Sense Peek probes... Perfect.
Batronix could win over this type of customer, who do not prioritize the highest possible bandwidth for their money.
In my case, I would see the Magnova as an addition to my SDS3104X HD, which admittedly is more of a luxury problem.
If you were faced with a direct choice, either or, you would have to know your needs exactly to be able to make a decision.
Regardless of everything, however, I have to admit that the display of signals on a screen with 1920x1080 pixels is in a completely different league to 1024x600.

[egonotto]

.... a very low-noise frontend ....

Hello,

how does the noise of the Magnova compare to the SDS3000X HD?

Best regards
egonotto

[Sorama]

More expensive than what/who?
You can get a Magnova for just under €3000.
If we ignore the low bandwidth of 100Mhz, then you get outstanding workmanship, a large 15” full hd display, a very low-noise frontend with active probe support and 12-bit converters for the money.
In addition, it is very fast in terms of basic performance.
The software left out because still expandable, there are few models that are on par with it at this price, actually none.
Micsig maybe, but I don't know them and it's doubtful that their workmanship is on par.
Not to mention the support.
The price is fine with me.
But I also asked early on in this thread which target group the scope was intended to appeal to.
And I think I've found an answer to that in the meantime.
I took the Magnova to work and left it to my colleagues in development.
And they like it so much that they are seriously considering ordering two or three of them.
The scope is dead quiet, doesn't take up much desk space despite the large screen, and the side ports, which I don't like at all, are very practical for them.
Testing a circuit on the desk in the office, without having to go to the lab...
And additionally the Sense Peek probes... Perfect.
Batronix could win over this type of customer, who do not prioritize the highest possible bandwidth for their money.
In my case, I would see the Magnova as an addition to my SDS3104X HD, which admittedly is more of a luxury problem.
If you were faced with a direct choice, either or, you would have to know your needs exactly to be able to make a decision.
Regardless of everything, however, I have to admit that the display of signals on a screen with 1920x1080 pixels is in a completely different league to 1024x600.

People here tend to compare with the Siglent 2000hd
Sds2204x HD: 200MHz for 2713€
Bmo200: 200MHz for  4461€

[Sorama]

Auto trigger level does exist on the Magnova:
You press the button and it triggers somewhere half the amplitude.

[Tomki]

Auto trigger level does exist on the Magnova:
You press the button and it triggers somewhere half the amplitude.

Correct! But that's where the only disadvantage of the Magnova's user interface comes into play. if you want to press the this button you have to "activate" the trigger function first because there is no dedicated function button for it. Then select the channel again to manipulate the vertical scaling...
An AC trigger would be handy ...