Magnova oscilloscope

[kaspich]

please, stop this BS.

A square wave was applied to the scope. If this is not a bug (without any additional monologs), then, please...

Read what others have written that clearly identifies what you're seeing:

What he shows could be two same pulses with different phases, untriggered, overlapped.

Yes, exactly. The scope shows the intensity graded result of many acquisitions when running or when manually set to stop while in run mode. In this case untriggered, and therefore the waveforms overlap incoherently. He would get his proper square waveform that he seems to be expecting by pressing Single instead of just Stop.

And no, this is not a bug, this is again basic digital scope operation.

Seriously?

This is a real circus here.
Josh, may I ask - your definition, what is a bug?
What is an oscilloscope? (let's start without ''modern digital'')

And, finally, please explain why all possible/remaining scopes I have act differently? Their Normal mode/trigger work similarly (I would say - as ''industry standard''). They have an adequate refresh rate. No, they are not showing overlapped traces, etc.
So, maybe they all have bugs? Or are they not digital devices? Or, maybe, are they not oscilloscopes?

[rf-messkopf]

please explain

It should be clear at this point that this has little chance of success. Also, the entertainment value is wearing thin.

[john74]

just let's go back to the actual topic of this thread
@kaspich, maybe you can open another thread to discuss the behavior of different oscilloscope brands.

[john74]

today we are releasing Magnova firmware version 1.8.1, introducing counter and DVM functionality, along with many other useful enhancements.

ok, now I think there is actually a real bug, in the new version :-)

when you change the y-offset of one of the analog channels (when the measurement is stopped)
sometimes the analog channels are not visible anymore.

happens with mouse and touch....the knob works fine for me.
(even the screenshot is empty)

[KungFuJosh]

ok, now I think there is actually a real bug, in the new version :-)

when you change the y-offset of one of the analog channels (when the measurement is stopped)
sometimes the analog channels are not visible anymore.

happens with mouse and touch....the knob works fine for me.

Yup, same here. But if you move it again it reappears. Doesn't seem to happen at all with the knobs.

[Andre77]

today we are releasing Magnova firmware version 1.8.1, introducing counter and DVM functionality, along with many other useful enhancements.

ok, now I think there is actually a real bug, in the new version :-)
when you change the y-offset of one of the analog channels (when the measurement is stopped)
sometimes the analog channels are not visible anymore.
happens with mouse and touch....the knob works fine for me.
(even the screenshot is empty)

Thanks a lot for your report!

We were able to reproduce the issue you described. Adjusting the Y-offset while the measurement is stopped can cause the analog channels to disappear, just as you observed.

Sorry for the trouble this caused!

We’re already looking into it and working on a fix. We’ll also make sure this case is properly covered in our testing going forward.

[kaspich]

This post is dedicated to the people who are still making their descision to purchase Magnova or not.

First, you should keep in mind – Batronix uses this forum as a free-of-charge advertisement platform. My point of view – it’s not ethical. I’ll explain why.
Before purchasing Magnova, I checked the internet for some additional information. This/Dave forum appeared to be the one and only trustworthy source. In contrast to some Chinese brands, I noticed that the CEO/CTO of this company, as well as a few other tech guys, are here (and I believe in companies ruled by their CTOs). This was a fundamental difference from Chinese brands that typically don’t respond to your emails/questions/requests. I saw that people here are talking about minor things (size of fonts, color of traces), which gave me confidence that major bugs are fixed. What could be better than a correctly working tool and instant support from developers?
The real situation is ‘’a bit’’ different. Yes, for simple things like disappearing traces or 3X output level of generator (bugs that are clear for each kid) are confirmed, and the dev team says sorry countless times (totally unnecessary to me because I trust they are working hard and mistakes could happen to everyone).
Unfortunately, the situation with more complicated things dramatically differs. There are some guys, related to this company (probably working as outsourced staff), who very aggressively ‘’protect’’ this product. Every single issue (which is a bug in a classic situation) is ‘’feature’’, scope ‘’works as it should’’, everything is perfect.
After some time, the dev team kindly asked to contact them privately because ‘’such more complicated aspects could frustrate less advanced users’’ (almost 1:1 citation from their post here). Great. Unfortunately, the situation remains the same. Square wave was applied to the input, but on screen – mess (when the status = stopped)? It’s a feature! All remaining (more or less reputable) scopes act correctly (differently)? That’s not an argument!
Honestly, I don’t know, which situation is better – Chinese brands that don’t respond, but (more or less) fix these ‘’features’’ after some time, or this case, when guys learn how to use their scope ‘’properly’’ or support team place videos where aliasing issues are revealed with a message – hi, you, newbe, learn this! The argument – guys, it’s a 200..500 EUR price range, scopes within 2K+ price range are working correctly, it's not an argument. Magnova is perfect from the beginning.
Magnova is sexy, good-looking, and some features are great (for example, the last upgrade – CNT and DVM). Yes, a lot of things need to be added to make these features really usable (zoom/scrolling/manual setting options for axis, for example), but the first steps are excellent.
At the same time, there are a lot of surprises. I call them bugs. People from another camp – as ‘’features’’.
Honestly, I am totally demotivated to send any report about issues/’’features’’ (my list contains more than a few entries), because in ALL cases, everything is perfect! That’s my problem, that I expect to see an adequate picture (from my point of view) on the screen. 10MHz applied, but on screen – 5+ different pictures with aliasing artifacts? It’s fine! 100Hz applied, on screen (after the trace is stopped), total mess – perfect! That’s how this should work! All my remaining scopes are acting differently? Well, Magnova is a special scope, you are an idiot. So simple.
On one side, people (both developers and their support team) claim that their scope is mega fast (which is true for the sweet spot), but when numbers show catastrophically poor performance outside the sweet spot, strange things are happening. First of all – that’s my fault, I failed to measure properly. Then – 4wfps: that’s how ‘’modern digital scope’’ should perform. Then – adequate refreshrate is ‘’feature request’’. Finally the recommendation appear – comparison with other scopes needs to be moved to the other thread. So, if the scope is fast/responsive, let’s compare with other manufacturers and highlight this in bold, when it’s slow – keep it in silence? Again – it’s a promo site of this scope or independant forum? So far, the first one. And I should feel guilty for ruining a guy's business.
So, I am saying sorry to Andre and the other guys.

[Sorama]

You know what?
You should be banned which is why I reported this post.

I’m definitely not the smartest guy when it comes to digital scopes (or for any other matter) but at least I know when I am wrong and when I should stay quiet, just to prevent saying stupid things. You made very clear you do not.

Shame on you for telling such nonsense.

[tautech]

You know what?
You should be banned which is why I reported this post.

I’m definitely not the smartest guy when it comes to digital scopes (or for any other matter) but at least I know when I am wrong and when I should stay quiet, just to prevent saying stupid things. You made very clear you do not.

Shame on you for telling such nonsense.

WTF ?

This is a free forum for all to express their views, good, bad or otherwise about any product !
Dave does this in every video he has uploaded whether it be technically right or wrong, which occasionally it is due to his misconceptions about a product and possibly his lack of experience.

We THANK members for posting stuff that is correct and we have a  to use when we disagree but to report someone just because we disagree with their findings is to me objectionable !

Instead we should ask for more proof of how they reached their position, so we can all have the chance to learn something and this is where we must be clear to give clear instruction and if necessary screenshots to demonstrate settings used for results that might challenge another member.

Then one must always allow for the fact they might have a faulty unit.........

[Sorama]

Agree if the feedback is done in a constructive way and based facts or questions without considering it is a bug by default.

Some people on the forum were referred to as being outsourced staff (he probably refers to Kungfujosh) while I’m sure they are not.

kaspich considers it’s not ethical for a manufacturer to be on this forum: that goes for you too then, isn’t it?

There is a difference between asking for support and bashing a manufacturer or saying he is abusing a forum commercially.
That is objectionable!

[tautech]

Agree if the feedback is done in a constructive way and based facts or questions without considering it is a bug by default.

Some people on the forum were referred to as being outsourced staff (he probably refers to Kungfujosh) while I’m sure they are not.

kaspich considers it’s not ethical for a manufacturer to be on this forum: that goes for you too then, isn’t it?

There is a difference between asking for support and bashing a manufacturer or saying he is abusing a forum commercially.
That is objectionable!

Certainly not.

Not paid or rewarded for my efforts here and only wanna share the great experience we've had with Siglent and their products for 13yrs.....almost as long as being a member here.

I don't have a problem with anybody justifiably bagging any product but they must back it up with repeatable proof, just like one must for any bug report for the development team to replicate it.

If they can't be made to support their claims then they must be ignored.....not reported !

Sometimes it is difficult with language barriers to provide good and full explanation of any problems/bugs we witness but to achieve any product improvement this is a skill we must develop.

[core]

We should be realistic in our expectations and aware that there is no perfect device.

Unfortunately, a more expensive device does not mean that it is guaranteed to be bug-free. It just means that it is better in some ways than cheaper ones. And this is not guaranteed either. But this is true for any device.
So all of this must be weighed.
Otherwise, frustration arises due to somewhat understandable hopes.

But personal attacks do not help at all, from whatever direction they come.

[Sorama]

I don't have a problem with anybody justifiably bagging any product but they must back it up with repeatable proof, just like one must for any bug report for the development team to replicate it.

That is part of my point: as long it is not backupped with proof (as is the case with Kaspich) one must not consider it a bug or a faulty device.

Kaspich made very clear (not only to me) he is not aware of some basic behaviour of digital scopes but instead starts ranting about a bad scope or design.
That is not particularly professional nor helpful for other users.

First think, then talk!

[tautech]

I don't have a problem with anybody justifiably bagging any product but they must back it up with repeatable proof, just like one must for any bug report for the development team to replicate it.

That is part of my point: as long it is not backupped with proof (as is the case with Kaspich) one must not consider it a bug or a faulty device.

Kaspich made very clear (not only to me) he is not aware of some basic behaviour of digital scopes but instead starts ranting about a bad scope or design.
That is not particularly professional nor helpful for other users.

First think, then talk!

Yet he is happy with KS scopes it seems.......if I have been correctly following along.

[kaspich]

Instead we should ask for more proof of how they reached their position...

Thanks!

Ok, I’ll shortly try to explain my position relating to several issues – aliasing, etc., trace problems.
For the last 30+ years, I have been a developer in electronics. I moved to digital scopes around 25 years ago. Since 2006, I have had my Agilent 6000 series scope (I got it almost immediately when it appeared on the market). Enormously expensive, but – still a wow device. Around 10 years ago, I purchased Siglent SDS2000 (at this moment, this was their most advanced device). The same story with MicSig and other scopes. I purchased them brand new, at the moment they appeared. So, I have some experience with digital scopes. Sorry, I have never used Owon, Rigol, Finsri, etc. as my everyday scopes.
Why have I asked our Karate John what an oscilloscope is? Because (at least, for me and by definition), it’s a device that represents a signal in the time domain. Not a sampling device. Not a device that demonstrates sampling techniques, the aliasing phenomenon.
According to this, in all possible scenarios, the scope should represent our signal as correctly as possible. Everyone knows about the bad guy Nyquist, who set some limitations. All profs know about aliasing issues. BUT. These are problems/issues. These issues need to be fixed/suspended/eliminated,/hided at the manufacturer's side! We/users should enjoy a proper curve on the screen, not aliasing/interference. Yes, in cheap models, such advanced ‘’workarounds’’ are not included. But, as we clearly see, in more expensive/top models, these issues are eliminated. How are they done? Automatic peak detection/normal acquisition? Some burst packs of high-sampling rate to check the input spectrum? Other methods? We don’t know. But we see the result.
My advice to all my haters – just try, for example, the Agilent 6000/7000 series scope. Try its responsiveness, aliasing/free performance. Yes, no additional fancy graphs, limited math capability. But basic functionality works PERFECTLY.
One more aspect is TIME. Every time I need to scroll the time scale button, I press the screen extra times to modify trigger settings – it’s a waste of my time! These are seconds that transform into minutes, which transform into hours.
Third aspect. If we have only 2 buttons, every 10 options, we have 100 combinations, right?   Ten buttons? Millions of variations. If each button affects the result (memory option, some extra capturing, bitrate settings, etc.), we can achieve a million different traces on the screen. The main question is – which one is the correct result? If this scope is not dedicated to scientists, its interface should be as simple as possible. Auto options – as many as possible. 99% of users will struggle in these mega-advanced settings. Why not use 16-bit resolution at very low frequencies automatically (just one of the examples)?
For me, scope should be an instrument – fast, predictable, and stable, not a fancy toy with unpredictable results.
Guys, I paid full money for this scope (as well as for all my remaining scopes, too), and I am fully independent. NOTHING will change in my life (relating to this scope), regardless of whether you are saying thanks to me or recommending that I be banned.
Situation with the manufacturer is ENTIRELY different. It’s his business! His money! And, if the manufacturer hides glitches/bugs, so what should I do?

[tautech]

Instead we should ask for more proof of how they reached their position...

Thanks!
.................
 Because (at least, for me and by definition), it’s a device that represents a signal in the time domain. Not a sampling device. Not a device that demonstrates sampling techniques, the aliasing phenomenon.
According to this, in all possible scenarios, the scope should represent our signal as correctly as possible. Everyone knows about the bad guy Nyquist, who set some limitations. All profs know about aliasing issues. BUT. These are problems/issues. These issues need to be fixed/suspended/eliminated,/hided at the manufacturer's side! We/users should enjoy a proper curve on the screen, not aliasing/interference. Yes, in cheap models, such advanced ‘’workarounds’’ are not included. But, as we clearly see, in more expensive/top models, these issues are eliminated. How are they done? Automatic peak detection/normal acquisition? Some burst packs of high-sampling rate to check the input spectrum? Other methods? We don’t know. But we see the result.
...................

However when a DSO design that eliminates aliasing and such by preventing settings that can allow it, this constrains the use we can put it to.
Instead we should have as much info as possible on the display to allow us to make good settings choices for the particular task in front of us.

No one set of settings allows this !

A classic example is the wide and wrong belief DSO's are useless in XY mode for the likes of oscilloscope music/art when correct settings to optimise their performance can have them performing just as well as a CRO.

[rf-messkopf]

However when a DSO design that eliminates aliasing and such by preventing settings that can allow it, this constrains the use we can put it to.
Instead we should have as much info as possible on the display to allow us to make good settings choices for the particular task in front of us.

No one set of settings allows this !

This (among other things) has been explained to him ad nauseam. Therefore again the heartfelt request to move basic questions about the functioning and the limitations of digital oscilloscopes to a separate thread, instead of polluting this one even more.

[tautech]

However when a DSO design that eliminates aliasing and such by preventing settings that can allow it, this constrains the use we can put it to.
Instead we should have as much info as possible on the display to allow us to make good settings choices for the particular task in front of us.

No one set of settings allows this !

This (among other things) has been explained to him ad nauseam. Therefore again the heartfelt request to move basic questions about the functioning and the limitations of digital oscilloscopes to a separate thread, instead of polluting this one even more.

That's normal here but it makes for good reading where we can all learn a thing or 2 so to go sit in front of our scopes and learn a thing or 2 3 which helps us all understand our instruments better. 

Each is just....different, yet we all need to know how to get the best from them otherwise accept their limitations or our limitations in driving them to their capabilities.

To quote member rf-loop; know your instrument.

[2N3055]

First of all I see some are confused.

It NOT UNETHICAL for manufacturer to be on the forum.
They are welcomed here and it serves as GREAT resource for users.
They are open about who they are. They are here with full "blessing" of forum owner.

Whoever think it is better how Keysight, Tektronix, R&S are hiding behind support wall has scrambled brain.

Second, to @kaspich : create new forum topic, and go there and write your monologues there. So we can continue discussing here the actual oscilloscope. Hint: I personally think most of what you write is confused nonsense. But I have no problem with your right to free speech. Just do it somewhere else, not here. This topic is not for rants. It is for actual users exchanging useful info and converse with manufacturer. I agree with @rf-messkopf 100%.

And no, it is not Karate John. Be respectful to others. People always return in kind, bad and good.
You will either respect the will and rights of majority of people here or majority will start asking for you to be banned from forum. It is as simple as that.

[mawyatt]

Why does any thread about a DSOs, either Rigol, Siglent, and now Magnova end up in a pissing contest

Having Representatives of OEMs is great for users and potential users. We've have/had Reps from Keysight, R&S, Siglent, and now Batronix provide very helpful technical and operational details....often transcending the brand!!

Have you seen the superb R&S videos, or the detailed Siglent technical performance threads, where the information is applicable to almost any instrument. These are intellectual gold mines for newcomers and even seasoned old folks!! These Reps know more about DSOs than any of us ever will  

IMO we need more OEM reps here, the more the better

Also, what 2N3055 says is valid, don't dilute an entire thread with a bunch of rants...move this to another dedicated thread, then rant all you want. All the Siglent interested have suffered this on Siglent DSO thread, because a particular user has posted a continual stream of "bugs" that border on ridiculous, mostly because of lack of fundamental/operational knowledge, and unique personal preferences.

We don't own a Magnova, so no skin in the game, but have been impressed by Batronix. Especially so with Andre77 comments/information/support, keep it up

Best 

[2N3055]

We don't own a Magnova, so no skin in the game, but have been impressed by Batronix. Especially so with Andre77 comments/information/support, keep it up

Best

Same here, I do not own Magnova, but have immense respect for both management of Batronix that made the brave decision to embark on this journey, and excellent engineers that created very good product, and from the scratch. Kudos.

[hotze]

With the Magnova, I got exactly what was promised. Batronix's support is fast, outstanding, and takes every constructive suggestion seriously. I personally see a clear difference compared to many other vendors. I don't understand the unnecessarily harsh tone in the forum lately and hope we can return to constructive discussion.

[KungFuJosh]

I previously removed a comment, concerned it might have been too harsh or, more to the point, beyond Kaspich’s capacity to comprehend. I’ll repost it now:

“The view from the peak of Dunning-Kruger’s mountain must be stunning.”

If that metaphor proves too challenging, I’m happy to walk you through it. Though, judging by your contributions to this thread, it’s quite apparent that explanations don’t tend to result in much understanding on your part.

For the record, I am not employed by Batronix, neither are the other forum members who have patiently tried to correct Kaspich’s misconceptions (besides Andre and Flo, of course). This is neither marketing nor conspiracy. It’s simply a matter of Kaspich lacking even a rudimentary grasp of how modern oscilloscopes function. He also seems to prefer the comforting lies his Keysight scope displays, evidently valuing a prettier picture over an honest one.

I make no claim to expertise here and genuinely appreciate the opportunity to learn from others in this forum. I’m also grateful to Batronix for developing their product and backing it with the support they have.

Kaspich, Batronix extended you a refund beyond their standard return policy. I suggest you accept their kind and generous offer. No other business or manufacturer would have made such an accommodation; especially not in response to the nonsensical, childish rants you’ve treated everyone to.

All the Best,
Josh

[kaspich]

First of all I see some are confused.

It NOT UNETHICAL for manufacturer to be on the forum.
They are welcomed here and it serves as GREAT resource for users.
They are open about who they are. They are here with full "blessing" of forum owner.

Whoever think it is better how Keysight, Tektronix, R&S are hiding behind support wall has scrambled brain.

Second, to @kaspich : create new forum topic, and go there and write your monologues there. So we can continue discussing here the actual oscilloscope. Hint: I personally think most of what you write is confused nonsense. But I have no problem with your right to free speech. Just do it somewhere else, not here. This topic is not for rants. It is for actual users exchanging useful info and converse with manufacturer. I agree with @rf-messkopf 100%.

And no, it is not Karate John. Be respectful to others. People always return in kind, bad and good.
You will either respect the will and rights of majority of people here or majority will start asking for you to be banned from forum. It is as simple as that.

Dear user,

Why are you thinking that your monologues deserve to be in this topic, by mine - no. Why do you think that you are different?
Simple question, I would receive a simple answer.

[kaspich]

We don't own a Magnova, so no skin in the game, but have been impressed by Batronix. Especially so with Andre77 comments/information/support, keep it up

Best

Same here, I do not own Magnova, but have immense respect for both management of Batronix that made the brave decision to embark on this journey, and excellent engineers that created very good product, and from the scratch. Kudos.

what? You don't own Magnova, but posting crap like this?
I own Magnova, but my aposts about bugs are not welcome?
You are a real clown, sorry