Tariffs

[Dundarave]

One aspect of the new tariffs that I haven’t heard mentioned yet is the total p.i.t.a. of customs clearance and having to pay brokerage fees on top of the tariff “duties” that have to be paid when you order something from a company in another country.

Canadians are used to this, but I don’t think it’s been a thing in the U.S. (but I could be wrong).

So in addition to the actual tariff amount, you’ll likely have to pay a brokerage fee ($25 - $50) in order to get your purchase through the customs people at the border.  And that’s not going to speed up delivery of your orders either.

[Zero999]

I'm not arguing for or against tariffs. I'm being objective about it, rather than listening to the media hype.

Or just read historically what has happened: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/smoot-hawley-tariff-act.asp
You realize part of the justification was claiming VAT is a tariff right: https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/04/02/no-vat-isnt-a-tariff-but-the-us-would-benefit-from-adopting-it/

The government also did other things back then, such as increased spending, so it's a pretty simplistic argument.

Other countries also have tariffs. China does it, along with many other protectionist measures.

And both of those articles are subject to bias because they were written after the election of Trump, so are more opinion pieces then anything else.

[tautech]

It all started with corporate greed shifting US production offshore to cheap labor sources.....

This empowered the east to become very competitive and to such an extent the balance of trade has become too lopsided.....isn't that a similar situation to what started the Opium wars ?

Rather than go after the greedy corporates and the historically weak legislation that permitted offshore production Chump took the easy way out and plonked duty on anything that isn't made in USA.....just many decades too late.

[tom66]

Not commenting on this too much, but just mentioning something that is rarely mentioned as of late: most (if not all) of the big tech US companies have a large chunk of their activities delocalized in very low-tax countries (Ireland being one big contender for Europe), allowing them to escape US taxation to a large extent. I could understand how that would end up tickling the US a little bit.

It's sure unfortunate that it would harm the smaller companies that do nothing like this, but I'm pretty sure this is mostly a temporary bargaining lever.

The US has been a signatory to the global minimum corporation tax regime since 2021, setting a floor of 15% for corporation tax.  It is not yet implemented in the USA, but signing it into law would be one method to level the playing field here.  Unfortunately, Trump announced an EO early on in his term that effectively withdrew US support for it.  So he's perhaps limited the one mechanism to collect more corporation tax, to favour his techbro mates.

edit: clarification

[aeg]

mmm wonder if i could set up as a man in the middle,yanks buy from me,i buy from china  so only 10% tarriff(plus my cut)instead of 54%

We're planning to do that for our larger customers in the US. A couple have already said they're happy to eat the extra two weeks for us to re-route their stuff via Australia.

You probably won't get caught, but it won't end well if you do.

https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/customs-4/international-affairs/origin-goods_en

I'd link CBP, but the EU's write-up is much clearer.

[Ranayna]

[...]
Big Tech / Online services, i hope they go hard on FAGMAN as retaliation, unless maybe they start paying the taxes they are due for all the money they make from us.

This has quite the potential to hurt a lot - if not all - european companies.
If the EU enacts a counter tariff on US it-services and licenses on US Software, this will hit virtually every european company.
I mean, what *reasonable* and quickly implemented alternative is there to Microsoft?

The european economy, germany's especially, is not all that healthy at the moment. That could hurt quite a bit.

[MK14]

What is to stop, people/businesses/entities etc, buying the stuff, e.g. originally from China, or a car they want, with huge tariffs, if bought in the usual way, via Russia, or other countries.  Then by the time it reaches the US, possibly by the container load, getting 0% tariffs?

I.e. It gets **whitewashed** (or so the modern expression goes, as I understand it).

In other words, like the 1920s/early30s prohibition, where lots of people, just defeat the new law(s), in various ways, making it somewhat unenforceable.

Edit:
It would be dishonest/criminal, so I'm NOT recommending it.  But being realistic, if there is money/profit to be made.  There can be people, who are willing to do it.

[MK14]

This has quite the potential to hurt a lot - if not all - european companies.
If the EU enacts a counter tariff on US it-services and licenses on US Software, this will hit virtually every european company.
I mean, what *reasonable* and quickly implemented alternative is there to Microsoft?

The european economy, germany's especially, is not all that healthy at the moment. That could hurt quite a bit.

I think there are various fixes/solutions/mitigations, that can be implemented.

E.g. (Hypothetically), let's say there is a popular car, from the EU, that currently sells for $50,000, but is now hit by a 25% tariff.

They may change the included specifications, to lose the originally included, leather seats, heated seats, climate control and some other bits and pieces.

Essentially ending up with the same car, but with manual air-conditioning, non-leather seats, etc.  hence $40,000.

Which can then still sell for $40,000 + 25% = $50,000 selling price, but with less included options.

[AVGresponding]

Might have to switch there to Russian vodka because of tariffs 

I buy Ukrainian vodka to support Ukraine, not because it's cheap. I'd give up alcohol before I'd give any money to Russia.

[AVGresponding]

100% tarrif is better then than that policy

Don't you know how to write proper English?
(Never mind that other misspledding.)

It's "tariff". One R, two Fs, easy mistake to make. Not sure what a "misspledding" is, I suspect you may be misspelling it. Perhaps you could take some primary English lessons.

[AVGresponding]

This has quite the potential to hurt a lot - if not all - european companies.
If the EU enacts a counter tariff on US it-services and licenses on US Software, this will hit virtually every european company.
I mean, what *reasonable* and quickly implemented alternative is there to Microsoft?

The european economy, germany's especially, is not all that healthy at the moment. That could hurt quite a bit.

I think there are various fixes/solutions/mitigations, that can be implemented.

E.g. (Hypothetically), let's say there is a popular car, from the EU, that currently sells for $50,000, but is now hit by a 25% tariff.

They may change the included specifications, to lose the originally included, leather seats, heated seats, climate control and some other bits and pieces.

Essentially ending up with the same car, but with manual air-conditioning, non-leather seats, etc.  hence $40,000.

Which can then still sell for $40,000 + 25% = $50,000 selling price, but with less included options.

Heated seats is an example of an option that is enabled via sw these days anyway. Might increase the pressure to buy base models and unlock options after purchase

[wilfred]

The amount of fake news and misinformation that Trump has spread, as an excuse for the tariffs, is beyond imagination.

He doesn't appear to be any worse than any other politician making up nonsense to justify their policies. I just find it odd how people get more upset about it when he does it.

I thought people get less upset about it when he lies. He took "I can tell when a politician is lying because I see their lips moving" from an insulting dig to a mere statement of fact. That's amazing. But he can say the exact opposite thing a day later and not appear to recall the prior statement at all. I really think he does know he's lying but I am convinced he doesn't suffer the internal guilt or shame which stops most people from lying.

How does that Simon and Garfunkle song "The Boxer" go
"I am just a poor boy, though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmm"

Although when trying to make sense of what is going on in America at the moment I fall back on the Robert Frost poem "The Draught Horse"

With a lantern that wouldn’t burn
In too frail a buggy we drove
Behind too heavy a horse
Through a pitch-dark limitless grove.

And a man came out of the trees
And took our horse by the head
And reaching back to his ribs
Deliberately stabbed him dead.

The ponderous beast went down
With a crack of a broken shaft.
And the night drew through the trees
In one long invidious draft.

The most unquestioning pair
That ever accepted fate
And the least disposed to ascribe
Any more than we had to to hate,

We assumed that the man himself
Or someone he had to obey
Wanted us to get down
And walk the rest of the way.


I have heard it said that it is a metaphor for life in an Authoritarian or Totalitarian state. In this context I think that is valid with stepping out from the trees and killing the horse being a metaphor for trump's tariffs effect on the economy.

[Siwastaja]

One aspect of the new tariffs that I haven’t heard mentioned yet is the total p.i.t.a. of customs clearance and having to pay brokerage fees on top of the tariff “duties” that have to be paid when you order something from a company in another country.

It's not like the existence of tariffs is invented now. They are just increased. The amount of work and amount of PITA is constant regardless of if the duty is 0.0001% or 10000%. Therefore, increases from e.g. 10% to e.g. 30% is, after you add the costs like brokerage fees, relatively smaller, not higher as you suggest.

As a practical example, for a product with value of $1000 plus $10 of processing fees, 10% duty is actually 11%, but 30% duty is not 33%, but just 31%.

This stuff is all PITA and I have wondered for a long time what sense it makes to have 10000 different categories for everything with the only difference being that you pay 2.1% duty for something and 2.7% for something else and 1.5% for yet something. At least for consumers / small businesses the amount of hassle was dominating and the actual cost of tariffs meaningless.

That bureaucracy has always been there, and will always be there. With higher payload costs, it actually seems to make more sense. Another extreme would be to get rid of the whole thing completely, but clearly all governments everywhere have always been reluctant to do anything like that, so it's mentally dishonest to talk like Trump is the one who invented tariffs and customs.

[tom66]

What is to stop, people/businesses/entities etc, buying the stuff, e.g. originally from China, or a car they want, with huge tariffs, if bought in the usual way, via Russia, or other countries.  Then by the time it reaches the US, possibly by the container load, getting 0% tariffs?

I.e. It gets **whitewashed** (or so the modern expression goes, as I understand it).

In other words, like the 1920s/early30s prohibition, where lots of people, just defeat the new law(s), in various ways, making it somewhat unenforceable.

Edit:
It would be dishonest/criminal, so I'm NOT recommending it.  But being realistic, if there is money/profit to be made.  There can be people, who are willing to do it.

This is a common problem with country of origin rules... I can't remember the company name now, but you used to be able to buy ~£500 hot air rework stations from a French company, that were "Made in France", on Farnell.  It was very obvious that these were just rebadged Atten hot air units that could be had for under £100 normally.  These were made in China.  In order for something to be designated as being "made" in that country it has to undergo a substantial transformation there.  Simply adding a logo is not usually enough.  Perhaps, the French company was dismantling each unit and reassembling it, but somehow I doubt that.  Perhaps they were testing and calibrating the units.  We may never know.  Whatever they were just doing, it would be to get around supply chain rules that some companies have where they will not buy tools from China, or have to source European kit, or something like that.

Some companies do it for entirely different reasons.  Ford used to import Transit vans with seats in them from their Turkish factory into the US.  Passenger vans had lower tariffs than cargo vans, and Ford did not want to set up a production facility for vans in the US as it's a small market compared to pickup trucks.  The vans were stripped of their interior once they were in the US, and then sold on as cargo vans, effectively bypassing the rules.  Presumably, they had the bare minimum interior inside them to comply with the definition of "passenger vehicle".  A similar case exists with the Subaru BRAT where the rear plastic bench seat was installed, with carpets and seat-belts, but designed to be trivially removed; this classified the BRAT as a passenger vehicle, and attracted a much lower tax.  Customers were expected to remove the seats themselves (simply bolted to the chassis), as they were intentionally barely usable, but a few examples with the seats remain.

[eutectique]

How does a tariff on an uninhabited island that produces nothing affect you?

In 2022 the US has imported $1.3M worth of machinery and electronics and additionally $25K worth of vegetables from these territories.

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/USA/Year/2022/TradeFlow/Import/Partner/HMD/Product/all-groups

[vad]

What is to stop, people/businesses/entities etc, buying the stuff, e.g. originally from China, or a car they want, with huge tariffs, if bought in the usual way, via Russia, or other countries.  Then by the time it reaches the US, possibly by the container load, getting 0% tariffs?

I.e. It gets **whitewashed** (or so the modern expression goes, as I understand it).

In other words, like the 1920s/early30s prohibition, where lots of people, just defeat the new law(s), in various ways, making it somewhat unenforceable.

Edit:
It would be dishonest/criminal, so I'm NOT recommending it.  But being realistic, if there is money/profit to be made.  There can be people, who are willing to do it.

Russia is one of the few countries with a market economy that was spared from the tariffs. Companies do not have to break the law; they can simply shift production to Russia. Your next iPhone or oscilloscope may come from an assembly plant in Zelenograd, and your favorite coffee beans could be roasted in Siberia.

[wilfred]

US debt clock, 36T USD and counting https://www.usdebtclock.org

8 trillion of that is from the first trump administration if Nikky Halley during the primary debates can be believed.
https://youtu.be/mvmrS6Xj_8M?si=4QmTeAok2CwTNahT&t=261
America has a worryingly high level of debt. Not the highest as a percentage of GDP but paying it back is a real concern if it gets still higher. With the US dollar as a reserve currency the US can just keep the presses rolling. But if the world starts seeking alternatives because it loses faith in the strength of the US economy and the ability of the US to keep rolling bonds over into new ones when they fall due they will default and it will be game over.

I heard a saying once "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop." It is Steins law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Stein#Stein's_Law

[eutectique]

Your next iPhone or oscilloscope may come from an assembly plant in Zelenograd, and your favorite coffee beans could be roasted in Siberia.

Rake-off and "protection" fees going into the bottomless pockets of ex-FSB-now-local-governors would make this scheme an economic suicide.

Expect a new wave of Russian law-makers and bureaucrats sweeping Miami Beach properties, Italian wineries, and Austrian ski resorts.

[SteveThackery]

Not sure what a "misspledding" is, I suspect you may be misspelling it. Perhaps you could take some primary English lessons.[/color][/font][/b]

It was a little joke, I'm sure.

[u666sa]

I think it's gonna be okey. We had companies leaving back in 2022. Ikea, McDonalds, etc, the list is several pages long.. As a result in 2024 you could buy furniture online, much cheaper, and quality is much better. McDonalds got a new name and dropped GMO from menu, now you can actually go and eat there. Overall economy got an injection once western companies left. It wasn't sanctions for Russia, it was an economic boom. Sanctions were experienced in Europe, I went there, layer of dirt on the streets, graffiti and homeless.

I'm sitting here in front of this Realspace Koru L shaped desk which I bought at office depot for $249. The thing is made in vietnam. Things its made of is most likely a laminate of rotten palm trees sprinkled with dried elephant poop. Now dropping precision tweezers on the table does not damage the tweezers, it damages the table. Real nice feature, will save a ton on tweezers. This furniture could be made in America. It's been done in Russia. Quality goes up ten fold. Price gets lower.

Semiconductors also could be made in America, I guarantee you that. All the necessary stuff could be made in America. It doesn't take that much time. 

Now the real reason I think Trump is making this move is national security. What happens if there is a war and your production is overseas? Bad things. Frankly this is the reason ukraine wasn't invaded back in 2014, Putin wanted more time to prepare for economic war. Ukraine is a western proxy, in fact Trump in his 1st term send weapons to ukraine. Trump must have seen what happened with all the money and support and effort sent, frankly M1A1 abrams tank is a trophy in Patriot park in Kubinka, right under the same roof with german Mouse. Everything that was sent got destroyed. Western economies, especially in Europe suffered. Global south got stronger.

Trump has no choice at this point. To keep up with the rest of the world, which got stronger, he needs stronger and more secure economy.

[krish2487]

Semiconductors also could be made in America, I guarantee you that. All the necessary stuff could be made in America. It doesn't take that much time. 

Let me just focus on just this one statement among the others... I will wager that you will not have even one single semiconductor fabrication plant become profitable... nay operational  if started today till the end of his present term.
They were... sure.. at one point.. then they moved overseas... ditto with manufacturing... US of A has lost its institutional manufacturing knowledge that it once possessed.. Those who were in their prime in the 60-80s have long since retired and/or dead..
It is a pipe dream you are dreaming. Its not cheap, fast or efficient to bring back that knowledge.. Much more importantly... this move will result in higher increased cost of goods since they have to factor in the price of the local labor..
Are you a patriot enough to pay for this increase (300-800%) at the very least... How many more of your nations people are willing to do so??
Alternatively... are you willing to take a price cut to your wages for the sake of your patriotism??

[u666sa]

then they moved overseas...

You telling me F-35 is made with Chinese semiconductors? 

America already has excellent semiconductor base. Just have to be expanded to cover other things.

Plus, exceptions could always be made! It doesn't have to be straight up economic masochisms, tariffs on everything. An exception could always be made.

[krish2487]

You telling me F-35 is made with Chinese semiconductors? 

Yes.. Well.. not just Chinese... Taiwanese... Vietnamese... Mexican... Malaysia.... Thailand...
If the F-35 was entirely made in US of A... you would be having a few more 0s added at the end , to the existing cost of the plane...

Sure it has... Rnd, HQ, finance, maybe some manufacturing.. texas, arizona and the likes... nowhere close to the demands of US of A.. forget the rest of the world..
even those "expansions" take time, money, effort, patience and certain uptime before they become profitable.... Its not a switch on switch off toggle...

[MK14]

Heated seats is an example of an option that is enabled via sw these days anyway. Might increase the pressure to buy base models and unlock options after purchase

Yes, good point, which gives me some ideas.  Similar, to what is already in some market places.

So a big oscilloscope manufacturer, could make a special advert, that goes something like the following:

************************************************************
Start of hypothetical example

Buy our wonderful oscilloscope (and other test equipment), where the base model prices, have been reduced enough, to match the pre-tariff, prices, precisely, across our entire range.

Pre-tariff price (for base model), $1599.

Post-tariff price (for the same base model), $1299 + tariffs = $1599.

Although the post purchase, options upgrade list, prices have increased in line with the tariffs.  We include a free, 145 day from date of first oscilloscope (switch on) use, demonstration mode, that demonstrates all options active.

We also guarantee, that if the tariffs ever reduce<**> or are eliminated entirely, you can buy any or all options, on top of the base model specifications, at the pre-tariff prices (or reduced percentage, pro rata with the tariff reduction<**> rate).

Base model 100 MHz bandwidth, options can raise this in stages, up to 1 GHz.
Base model, has ...... point memory, etc ....

End of hypothetical example
************************************************************

[tom66]

The 'even more likely' model is that Rigol USA imports their scopes from China as 100MHz, 2-channel scopes, and then performs a firmware update on those which makes them 2GHz, 4-channel scopes worth ten times as much.  But, there's the debate over a 'substantial transformation' there - perhaps they'd also have to run a recalibration, test, and recertification process to justify that.  Then Rigol USA pays Rigol China a licencing fee for all of this software and know-how which just so happens to cover the pre-tariff pricing.  There are various ways to make that payment not subject to cross-border tariffs, like paying it through intermediators that aren't tariffed or under a category that is exempt.

Thing is, this sort of nonsense only works out if you are selling enough into a region to start justifying creating your own offices and getting creative with the customs people.  And you run the risk that they decide "nope that's not right", seize your entire shipment and you have to go to court and convince a judge otherwise... that can get really expensive really quickly.