Tariffs

[Analog Kid]

What does that have to do with anything?

open yer eyes and read wot woz wrote

(somewhere in the US, I didn't get the specifics

I still have no god-damned clue what Derby, IN has to do with the price of tea in China.
Because apparently I haven't watched the same YooToob videos as y'all.
(Like not knowing how Lindsay Lohan is: "What rock have you been living under?")
I suppose that's some kind of glaring deficiency on my part.

[Monkeh]

What does that have to do with anything?

open yer eyes and read wot woz wrote

(somewhere in the US, I didn't get the specifics

I still have no god-damned clue what Derby, IN has to do with the price of tea in China.
Because apparently I haven't watched the same YooToob videos as y'all.
(Like not knowing how Lindsay Lohan is: "What rock have you been living under?")
I suppose that's some kind of glaring deficiency on my part.

It happens to be the approximate locale in question. That's it. You're not missing any greater revelation.

[vk6zgo]

At least now when I travel abroad, I now know any imported beef I consume will be Canadian instead of American.

This counts for Europe, Japan and Australia.

In Australia, it will most likely be Australian.
Imported beef is a niche taste.

[Cyclotron]

If countries really want to get the US where it hurts, they only need to stop importing oil products from the US, corn, soybeans, and animal feeds. Food of any type, really, and any technology from an American company.

If you look at the number one export of the US for the last nearly 20 years, it's oil products. There are three primary sources for purchasing them: OPEC, Russia, and the US.

Canada chose to not purchase the whiskey. When I visited Canada recently (2 months ago), the streets were filled with nationalist signs and pro-Canada stuff that would be called Fascism if it were shown in the news for the US.  I was told by my Canadian friends that this is a retort to the US.  I said, "Well, I see you took the high road."

[wilfred]

I still have no god-damned clue what Derby, IN has to do with the price of tea in China.
Because apparently I haven't watched the same YooToob videos as y'all.
(Like not knowing how Lindsay Lohan is: "What rock have you been living under?")
I suppose that's some kind of glaring deficiency on my part.

For the curious bystander this started with this comment from Monkeh.

"Oddly enough, I've just come across someone describing this exact absurdity in real life in the US (somewhere in the US, I didn't get the specifics). Subject matter: Locating underground services, specifically as an emergency to resolve a loss of service. You call a number (811), you ask for an emergency location - you'll be told there's a $1000 fine if it doesn't count as an emergency. If you ask them if it counts as an emergency, they will refuse to answer. If you ask them to define an emergency for the purposes of this fine, they will refuse to answer. Your only options are to get them out and hope they do not fine you, or not get underground location done. If you choose the latter, you will not get anyone to dig a hole for you, and you're on the hook if you hit anything."


and relates (I think) to this video. I cued it to the start point relevant to this discussion.
https://youtu.be/MalZT5ApeXE?si=B2DaMPLJjYjN6ayZ&t=115

[Zero999]

Fortunately, it should be fairly easy to calculate how much copper a PCB contains. In the meantime, whilst a suitable script is being written and tested, they could just give the worst case figures, i.e. that for an unetched PCB. That would make more sense than simply refusing to ship.

Only if you have the CAD data.  Otherwise, you need the manufacturer to provide that information, and some manufacturers may not be able or willing to do so.  Some boards could be years old, may be unsupported by a manufacturer or the manufacturer may not exist any more.

The whole point of HS tariff coding is to break products down to the largest single reasonable categorisation, so that a simple tariff can be applied.  So if the US wants to protect its native soybean industry, they can do so by applying a tariff to "1201.x Soya beans whether or not broken".  No one is importing PCBs to just extract their copper to outcompete native suppliers and expecting importers to list the percentage raw materials in each package is beyond asinine.

It's still not that difficult, to give an average. If in doubt, give a worst case, assuming unetched, if necessary. Customs aren't that smart. A note referring to Google AI should do.

[pope]

Canada chose to not purchase the whiskey. When I visited Canada recently (2 months ago), the streets were filled with nationalist signs and pro-Canada stuff that would be called Fascism if it were shown in the news for the US.  I was told by my Canadian friends that this is a retort to the US.  I said, "Well, I see you took the high road."

Can't blame them. That arrogant biped and his circus opened the pandora box.

[tom66]

It's still not that difficult, to give an average. If in doubt, give a worst case, assuming unetched, if necessary. Customs aren't that smart. A note referring to Google AI should do.

Maybe for us engineers we can look at a board with a BGA on it and go, well, that's probably at least 6-8 layers, let's say 8 layers, 35um per layer, board is 100 x 80mm... so that's say 280mm^3 of copper per layer, or max 2240mm^3 of copper if 100% filled.  So that works out around 20 grams of copper.  1kg of copper is about $5 right now, so that's maybe 10 cents of copper in a board.

Gemini gave me 10 grams, assuming a 50% fill, so in the same ballpark.

...but really, why are we wasting our time with this?  No one is actually going to import new boards into a country with labour as expensive as the USA to extract the copper from it.

[tggzzz]

It's still not that difficult, to give an average. If in doubt, give a worst case, assuming unetched, if necessary. Customs aren't that smart. A note referring to Google AI should do.

Maybe for us engineers we can look at a board with a BGA on it and go, well, that's probably at least 6-8 layers, let's say 8 layers, 35um per layer, board is 100 x 80mm... so that's say 280mm^3 of copper per layer, or max 2240mm^3 of copper if 100% filled.  So that works out around 20 grams of copper.  1kg of copper is about $5 right now, so that's maybe 10 cents of copper in a board.

Gemini gave me 10 grams, assuming a 50% fill, so in the same ballpark.

...but really, why are we wasting our time with this?  No one is actually going to import new boards into a country with labour as expensive as the USA to extract the copper from it.

How much of the assembly's Cu will be in the board anyway? That's the kind of problem for white goods manufacturers w.r.t. steel, Al, etc.

[tggzzz]

Personally I hope the EU and other places adopt a technique the French used in the early 1980s.

Back then there was a French industry making VCR machines, and they were feeling the pressure from the Japanese. Import tariffs were ineffective, so they mandated that all Japanese VCR imports had to be cleared by customs in Poitiers.

Have a look at a map to see where Poitiers is Unsurprisingly there were just two customs agents there.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/the-crazy-fight-in-france-over-the-domestic-vcr-market-in-1982-1.5349064

[tom66]

Personally I hope the EU and other places adopt a technique the French used in the early 1980s.

Back then there was a French industry making VCR machines, and they were feeling the pressure from the Japanese. Import tariffs were ineffective, so they mandated that all Japanese VCR imports had to be cleared by customs in Poitiers.

Have a look at a map to see where Poitiers is Unsurprisingly there were just two customs agents there.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/the-crazy-fight-in-france-over-the-domestic-vcr-market-in-1982-1.5349064

Amusing given that SCART was an invention of the French and primarily intended to wage war against the rest of the world by means of how terrible it was as a connector.

SCART = Slanted, Crooked, Annoying, Requires Twisting

[tggzzz]

Personally I hope the EU and other places adopt a technique the French used in the early 1980s.

Back then there was a French industry making VCR machines, and they were feeling the pressure from the Japanese. Import tariffs were ineffective, so they mandated that all Japanese VCR imports had to be cleared by customs in Poitiers.

Have a look at a map to see where Poitiers is Unsurprisingly there were just two customs agents there.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/the-crazy-fight-in-france-over-the-domestic-vcr-market-in-1982-1.5349064

Amusing given that SCART was an invention of the French and primarily intended to wage war against the rest of the world by means of how terrible it was as a connector.

SCART = Slanted, Crooked, Annoying, Requires Twisting

Remember Bulgin connectors? Any Bulgin connector. They gave Lucas a good name.

[vk6zgo]

If countries really want to get the US where it hurts, they only need to stop importing oil products from the US, corn, soybeans, and animal feeds. Food of any type, really, and any technology from an American company.

If you look at the number one export of the US for the last nearly 20 years, it's oil products. There are three primary sources for purchasing them: OPEC, Russia, and the US.

Canada chose to not purchase the whiskey. When I visited Canada recently (2 months ago), the streets were filled with nationalist signs and pro-Canada stuff that would be called Fascism if it were shown in the news for the US.  I was told by my Canadian friends that this is a retort to the US.  I said, "Well, I see you took the high road."

Why should they "take the high road" when the POTUS talks about making Canada  the "51st State"?
Being nice to aggressors is, historically, bad policy.

[Zero999]

If countries really want to get the US where it hurts, they only need to stop importing oil products from the US, corn, soybeans, and animal feeds. Food of any type, really, and any technology from an American company.

If you look at the number one export of the US for the last nearly 20 years, it's oil products. There are three primary sources for purchasing them: OPEC, Russia, and the US.

Canada chose to not purchase the whiskey. When I visited Canada recently (2 months ago), the streets were filled with nationalist signs and pro-Canada stuff that would be called Fascism if it were shown in the news for the US.  I was told by my Canadian friends that this is a retort to the US.  I said, "Well, I see you took the high road."

Why should they "take the high road" when the POTUS talks about making Canada  the "51st State"?
Being nice to aggressors is, historically, bad policy.

Trump is the world's biggest wind up merchant. I don't understand why so many people take what he says so seriously.

[tggzzz]

Trump is the world's biggest wind up merchant. I don't understand why so many people take what he says so seriously.

Because the highlighted word has two entirely different meanings, both valid in this context

The Russians and (especially) the Chinese are benefiting, especially in Asia, Africa and S America. T'rump is indeed a nation builder, provided "nation"=="China".

[TimFox]

Many of Trump's apologists say that one must take Trump seriously, but not literally.

[tggzzz]

Many of Trump's apologists say that one must take Trump seriously, but not literally.

Same is true of toddlers

[krish2487]

Many of Trump's apologists say that one must take Trump seriously, but not literally.

Same is true of toddlers

True, but toddlers dont make policy... not control the worlds most violent (for the lack of a better word)  army. 

[Zero999]

Trump is the world's biggest wind up merchant. I don't understand why so many people take what he says so seriously.

Because the highlighted word has two entirely different meanings, both valid in this context

The Russians and (especially) the Chinese are benefiting, especially in Asia, Africa and S America. T'rump is indeed a nation builder, provided "nation"=="China".

How are the tariffs benefitting the Chinese in those countries?

[tggzzz]

Trump is the world's biggest wind up merchant. I don't understand why so many people take what he says so seriously.

Because the highlighted word has two entirely different meanings, both valid in this context

The Russians and (especially) the Chinese are benefiting, especially in Asia, Africa and S America. T'rump is indeed a nation builder, provided "nation"=="China".

How are the tariffs benefitting the Chinese in those countries?

Chinese != China the nation.

Apart from that... indirectly, by several mechanisms. Amongst other things, China can now show other countries why they shouldn't believe US propaganda, e.g.

• democracy is a failure: look at how the US is self-destructing, our way is better (don't mention Tiananmen Square nor the Tibetans nor the Uighurs).
• screwed by the US tariffs? Forget them; no tariffs with China
• the US is in decline, they know it, and are chaotically flailing around trying to recapture past glories

Those kind of arguments are going down well in developing countries.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/25/comrade-nation-builder-how-china-views-donald-trumps-indictments-in-us
https://www.joelwong.net/2025/05/25/decoding-trumps-chinese-nickname-%E5%B7%9D%E5%BB%BA%E5%9B%BD/
https://www.thestar.com.my/business/insight/2024/12/17/trump-goes-from-capricious-to-a-china-patriot
https://www.csis.org/analysis/ending-strategic-vacuum-us-strategy-china-latin-america

[Zero999]

Trump is the world's biggest wind up merchant. I don't understand why so many people take what he says so seriously.

Because the highlighted word has two entirely different meanings, both valid in this context

The Russians and (especially) the Chinese are benefiting, especially in Asia, Africa and S America. T'rump is indeed a nation builder, provided "nation"=="China".

How are the tariffs benefitting the Chinese in those countries?

Chinese != China the nation.

Apart from that... indirectly, by several mechanisms. Amongst other things, China can now show other countries why they shouldn't believe US propaganda, e.g.

• democracy is a failure: look at how the US is self-destructing, our way is better (don't mention Tiananmen Square nor the Tibetans nor the Uighurs).
• screwed by the US tariffs? Forget them; no tariffs with China
• the US is in decline, they know it, and are chaotically flailing around trying to recapture past glories

Those kind of arguments are going down well in developing countries.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/25/comrade-nation-builder-how-china-views-donald-trumps-indictments-in-us
https://www.joelwong.net/2025/05/25/decoding-trumps-chinese-nickname-%E5%B7%9D%E5%BB%BA%E5%9B%BD/
https://www.thestar.com.my/business/insight/2024/12/17/trump-goes-from-capricious-to-a-china-patriot
https://www.csis.org/analysis/ending-strategic-vacuum-us-strategy-china-latin-america

The first three articles are rubbish and make no mention of tariffs, which make them off-topic. They're nothing more than TDS filled rants; the bias of the organisations says it all really, so I'm not going to bother wasting my time reading them.

The last one is very good and is well-worth reading; it makes some interesting and relevant points. It doesn't just criticise Trump, but also the previous Biden administration. Yes, if the US puts up trade barriers with other countries and China, China, being the largest economy will take the US's place.

I concur regarding the failure of democracy, which is happening in many Western countries, including the UK. It was well on its way out in the US before the current administration and I doubt their successors will improve things.  Oh dear, I've drifted off topic again.

[onesystem]

Just in the last two weeks I bought desoldering iron from Japan (Hakko FR 301), and after that tons of tips for the iron. Also ordered the analong meter EM-7000 from there as well. All through eBay. eBay and all sellers warned me that there will be tariffs, I looked it up online - I think it was 15%, so I was ready to cover that. But I received the items and tariffs never came. Not sure what happened there, but letting you know...

On the other hand, about 3 months ago I ordered industrial Variable Frequency Drive from Italy. Had to pay a juicy tariff. But in that case I was not ready for it and was not expecting the additional charge. $170 additional US on top of I think $750

[hfleming]

Well, good luck getting even normal packages from Europe and the rest of the world now. Most European and other countries have stopped shipping small packages via normal mail to the USA, until they can make up their mind… so, good luck if you want my $2.00 specially designed for you goody… can’t ship it with normal cheap post anymore… have to use UPS, and you have to pay $27 shipping for the $2 package…. But hey, apparently that is what the USA wants….

[krish2487]

Well, good luck getting even normal packages from Europe and the rest of the world now. Most European and other countries have stopped shipping small packages via normal mail to the USA, until they can make up their mind… so, good luck if you want my $2.00 specially designed for you goody… can’t ship it with normal cheap post anymore… have to use UPS, and you have to pay $27 shipping for the $2 package…. But hey, apparently that is what the USA wants….

but... but.... Europe and other countries will pay that 27$ now - orange clown and his MAGA zombies!
/s in case that wasnt clear..

[tggzzz]

Trump is the world's biggest wind up merchant. I don't understand why so many people take what he says so seriously.

Because the highlighted word has two entirely different meanings, both valid in this context

The Russians and (especially) the Chinese are benefiting, especially in Asia, Africa and S America. T'rump is indeed a nation builder, provided "nation"=="China".

How are the tariffs benefitting the Chinese in those countries?

Chinese != China the nation.

Apart from that... indirectly, by several mechanisms. Amongst other things, China can now show other countries why they shouldn't believe US propaganda, e.g.

• democracy is a failure: look at how the US is self-destructing, our way is better (don't mention Tiananmen Square nor the Tibetans nor the Uighurs).
• screwed by the US tariffs? Forget them; no tariffs with China
• the US is in decline, they know it, and are chaotically flailing around trying to recapture past glories

Those kind of arguments are going down well in developing countries.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/25/comrade-nation-builder-how-china-views-donald-trumps-indictments-in-us
https://www.joelwong.net/2025/05/25/decoding-trumps-chinese-nickname-%E5%B7%9D%E5%BB%BA%E5%9B%BD/
https://www.thestar.com.my/business/insight/2024/12/17/trump-goes-from-capricious-to-a-china-patriot
https://www.csis.org/analysis/ending-strategic-vacuum-us-strategy-china-latin-america

The first three articles are rubbish and make no mention of tariffs, which make them off-topic. They're nothing more than TDS filled rants; the bias of the organisations says it all really, so I'm not going to bother wasting my time reading them.

The last one is very good and is well-worth reading; it makes some interesting and relevant points. It doesn't just criticise Trump, but also the previous Biden administration. Yes, if the US puts up trade barriers with other countries and China, China, being the largest economy will take the US's place.

I concur regarding the failure of democracy, which is happening in many Western countries, including the UK. It was well on its way out in the US before the current administration and I doubt their successors will improve things.  Oh dear, I've drifted off topic again.

Has China been doing everything it can to overtake the US before T'rump? Of course they have! T'rump's tariffs and behaviour provide another string to their bow.
Only the wilfully blind wouldn't see that.

T'rump attempting to bully China into submission is a superb way of unifying ordinary Chinese in defence of China.

Hence the Chinese wryly referring to T'rump as the nation builder; the Chinese nation, that is.