Author Topic: Tariffs  (Read 422813 times)

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Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2475 on: September 11, 2025, 05:28:16 pm »
I've been thinking of maybe starting a thread to collect the most ironic posts on the forum

Annnddd how about those tariffs.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/imf-says-us-economy-showing-strains-tariffs-pose-some-risks-inflation-2025-09-11/

Interesting that for the year ending March that there's nearly a 1 million person change in employment numbers.
Inflation rising due to tariffs is sort of a no brainer. I mean the same thing happened when VAT was applied in at least the countries that I'm familiar with.

In the US, folks are saying "The Fed" is likely to cut rates in the next two sessions. So while inflation is super important, especially for the poor, the economic growth rate is more important.

There's so many experts on the topic and no one has ever been right or they'd retire as they'd be the most wealthy.
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2476 on: September 11, 2025, 05:51:31 pm »
I'm super pissed of because of the assassination yesterday, and probably just going to write something I wouldn't normally. And then let's see if others will do that as well or we will see a different, more violent future.

What's that got to do with the tariffs/trade barriers to entry? It's because of idiotic comments like that, that this thread is impossible to follow now. You just had to invite people to make political comments by stating something like that.
You cannot engage your faculties when you write, and especially when you make idiotic comments about having a temper because of his death and yet with no regard to all the others that are dying every day. At most just wish him peace and hope the perpetrator is found.

Your ability to understand the world and show real compassion to mankind is broken anyway, as your writings have revealed countless times.

If you cannot control yourself, go away and deal with it in your own time.


Quote from: cyclotron
Have some respect. No one accused you or your preferred party of anything. Stay off politics and please try to remain on topic for the thread.

Respect for what?! What about your best buddy of the moment kicking it off with the talk about an assassination? I don't see you telling him to stick the subject of the thread. Maybe you're saving it until you two get a room and share whatever you need there?
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2477 on: September 11, 2025, 06:05:07 pm »
Respect for what?! What about your best buddy of the moment kicking it off with the talk about an assassination? I don't see you telling him to stick the subject of the thread. Maybe you're saving it until you two get a room and share whatever you need there?

Wow. How about some respect for a family who's father is dead?

I believe, if you read my post, I did encourage just that, remain on topic. Highlighted below.

Please, stop with the personal attacks and stay on topic!



.

I believe I failed you also, I believe you warned me. Thank you for that. May I give you the same advice? :)


Annnnd, back to tariffs.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/india-us-trade-deal-indias-chief-trade-negotiator-may-travel-to-america-next-week-modi-trump-call-likely-soon/articleshow/123823740.cms

So some changes may be coming in the drama over tariffs with India and their purchase of Russian oil. I hope something can be done. I've got several friends in India that are telling me the situation isn't good. And it hurts the poor the most. My friends are engineers and architects there and have spent a lot of time in the West, they are pretty wealthy in the context of India.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2025, 06:09:39 pm by Cyclotron »
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2478 on: September 11, 2025, 06:20:26 pm »
stagflation if true, The US Fed is in a catch-22 situation maybe shock horror a 1929 economic downturn repeated.    :scared:
that would lead to some in power seeking a war time/type job recovery in future hi tec weapons production for Gaza , Ukraine & possibly Taiwan
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2479 on: September 11, 2025, 06:35:12 pm »
stagflation if true, The US Fed is in a catch-22 situation maybe shock horror a 1929 economic downturn repeated.    :scared:
that would lead to some in power seeking a war time/type job recovery in future hi tec weapons production for Gaza , Ukraine & possibly Taiwan

The war machines are always making money.

I wonder if any country has placed reciprocal tariffs on the US for importing arms.  That would be interesting if not amusing.
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2480 on: September 11, 2025, 06:37:00 pm »
Wow. How about some respect for a family who's father is dead?

I know what you're trying to do, but that's dim-witted. It's at the same level, yet your best buddy didn't even mention any of that; all he had to offer the forum was his foul temper.

He chose to bring it up, and what, focused on his temper and forgot to wish the victim or others well?!
Any reasonable person would wishes others well, and toward the victim wish him some peace, and hope the perp is caught. But none of that was present from your best buddy.

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I believe, if you read my post, I did encourage just that, remain on topic.

You choose to "believe" incorrectly.

It's in black-and-white, you picked on one person, and you chose to not direct it at your best buddy who had kicked off the deviation from tariffs to an assasination!

 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2481 on: September 11, 2025, 06:41:07 pm »
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2482 on: September 11, 2025, 06:52:11 pm »
...
You are on my ignore list now.

@tszaboo
If I wasn't clear before, I do recommend remaining on topic.

@shabaz
If this isn't enough to please you that's your problem.
Please stop with the hate and attacks on me.

Now do be good and remain on topic!

annnndddd back on tariffs,
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-august-deficit-falls-345-billion-tariff-revenues-rise-2025-09-11/

Taxes are taxes.
The windfall, if it remains (working its way through the courts) has at least reduced the US deficit.



 

Online tautech

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2483 on: September 11, 2025, 10:05:47 pm »
.............
Taxes are taxes.
The windfall, if it remains (working its way through the courts) has at least reduced the US deficit.
This is very revealing although only to 2018.....

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Online kite31

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2484 on: September 11, 2025, 10:50:19 pm »
Taxes are taxes.
The windfall, if it remains (working its way through the courts) has at least reduced the US deficit.
"Windfall"? This is just weird.

If the government raises taxes on its populace, which may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, that is not ordinarily defined as a windfall gain (unearned, unexpected or serendipitous). Reducing a deficit by raising taxes is not amazing.

Taxes may be uniform on the people or they may be targetted or discriminatory. In that respect, taxes are not taxes. Taxes such as tariffs which deter trade will raise inflation and in the long run reduce competitiveness of the country imposing tariffs. Doing it to protect strategic industries may be considered a worthwhile cost.
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2485 on: September 12, 2025, 02:06:37 am »
.............
Taxes are taxes.
The windfall, if it remains (working its way through the courts) has at least reduced the US deficit.
This is very revealing although only to 2018.....

It is shocking and I know that the nations debt is on a lot of my US friends' minds.
The more shocking, to me, is that the US is nowhere near the top of the debt numbers when you actually determine the debt owned by each citizen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

The US has no doubt the largest national debt, full stop.  On a per capita basis, we are ranked 19th and are near-tied with Australia for national debt total per capita.
Per capita by government debt alone, I think Japan is first, then Ireland, and then the US but the UK is also very high.
If you look at debt as factored by GDP, the Sudan worst, then Japan, Lebanon, Singapore, Eritrea, Greece, Venezuela, Italy, and then the US in 9th.

No one I know in the US is pleased with the level of external debt. We need to do more about it.

Taxes are taxes.
The windfall, if it remains (working its way through the courts) has at least reduced the US deficit.
"Windfall"? This is just weird.

If the government raises taxes on its populace, which may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, that is not ordinarily defined as a windfall gain (unearned, unexpected or serendipitous). Reducing a deficit by raising taxes is not amazing.

Taxes may be uniform on the people or they may be targetted or discriminatory. In that respect, taxes are not taxes. Taxes such as tariffs which deter trade will raise inflation and in the long run reduce competitiveness of the country imposing tariffs. Doing it to protect strategic industries may be considered a worthwhile cost.

I apologize if you take exception to the use of the word "windfall." There were several sources of media that I was reading at the time that used the term:

https://www.usnews.com/news/u-s-news-decision-points/articles/2025-08-04/trumps-tariff-windfall-ignites-debate-over-spending
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2025/trump-tariff-income-tracker/

I'm not a financial expert; I believe anyone who is would be retired since they'd know how to make a fortune rapidly.  I know how to make a small fortune; you start with a large one, and let me decide on the investments.

Targeted tariffs would be targeted taxes, and the significant, widespread tariffs that this administration has applied are broad taxes. When I said "taxes are taxes" I was referring to some reading that I didn't reference. Many believe that the administration's tax reduction on businesses was made up for by the tariffs those same businesses have to pay.  Some say it's more, some say it's less.

The nuance is that companies once paid general taxes for their existence and earnings, and now pay tariffs as taxes on imports. Whether that spurs companies to change from importing is yet to be seen. This becomes a carrot and stick to push the US companies to source from places with favorable tariffs/taxes.




« Last Edit: September 12, 2025, 02:54:12 am by Cyclotron »
 

Online kite31

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2486 on: September 12, 2025, 03:45:16 am »
Given it is neither unexpected nor unearned ("free money") other people are also using windfall incorrectly.

I'm not a financial expert; I believe anyone who is would be retired since they'd know how to make a fortune rapidly.
We are talking about tariffs. Understanding economic impacts of tariffs is not an obvious source of wealth, so this statement is quite misleading.

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Targeted tariffs would be targeted taxes, and the significant, widespread tariffs that this administration has applied are broad taxes.
They are on foreign trade, paid by consumers both in consumption and in distorted economic growth.

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Many believe that the administration's tax reduction on businesses was made up for by the tariffs those same businesses have to pay.  Some say it's more, some say it's less.
And some have little idea of their subject. The consumer pays, after all the business dealings.

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The nuance is that companies once paid general taxes for their existence and earnings, and now pay tariffs as taxes on imports.
This is not economically neutral for the country.

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Whether that spurs companies to change from importing is yet to be seen. This becomes a carrot and stick to push the US companies to source from places with favorable tariffs/taxes.
Why? Kindly advise the economic benefit of paying more, potentially for less?

I have seen no rational economic argument from the current US administration, only attitudes to countries or to people. In that respect this discussion can go nowhere, having started with an error.
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2487 on: September 12, 2025, 04:40:04 am »
Given it is neither unexpected nor unearned ("free money") other people are also using windfall incorrectly.

I'm not a financial expert; I believe anyone who is would be retired since they'd know how to make a fortune rapidly.
We are talking about tariffs. Understanding economic impacts of tariffs is not an obvious source of wealth, so this statement is quite misleading.
If you feel I'm trying to mislead you. I'm very sorry.

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Targeted tariffs would be targeted taxes, and the significant, widespread tariffs that this administration has applied are broad taxes.
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They are on foreign trade, paid by consumers both in consumption and in distorted economic growth.
I agree that the taxes and tariffs paid by corporations will eventually be paid for by the consumer. I've argued this for years. I've seen people say that big companies should pay their fair share!  Companies do not pay.

I'm not sure how something is paid for in "distorted economic growth."  Are you saying the outcome of tariffs distorts economic growth?
If that's correct then I agree. I think tariffs are intentionally meant to distort markets.

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Many believe that the administration's tax reduction on businesses was made up for by the tariffs those same businesses have to pay.  Some say it's more, some say it's less.
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And some have little idea of their subject. The consumer pays, after all the business dealings.

I agree that some, even many, have little idea of their subject. The news is full of pundits, talking heads, and supposed experts. And they all seem to disagree.

I also agree that consumers pay corporate tax, regardless of whether it is assessed as taxes on revenue, employment, tariffs, or any of the many other means that governments use to generate revenue streams.

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The nuance is that companies once paid general taxes for their existence and earnings, and now pay tariffs as taxes on imports.
Quote
This is not economically neutral for the country.
Agreed, and I don't think that's the intent.

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Whether that spurs companies to change from importing is yet to be seen. This becomes a carrot and stick to push the US companies to source from places with favorable tariffs/taxes.
Quote
Why? Kindly advise the economic benefit of paying more, potentially for less?
I don't believe I argued that there is an economic benefit. I'm not arguing in favor of the tariffs or what they may potentially achieve, fail at, or worse, cause damage.

What I've read/heard is that the supposed benefits of taxing companies are that they will use write-offs and so on to avoid a tax burden. Those write-offs can be building, research, or lots of things. Tariffs, as taxes on trade, prompt companies to seek ways to circumvent them. They will seek to avoid paying as much as possible; the rest will be passed on to the consumer. The behaviors of the company are what I assume the regulators are trying to influence.

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I have seen no rational economic argument from the current US administration, only attitudes to countries or to people. In that respect this discussion can go nowhere, having started with an error.

Thank you for your perspective. Again, I'm not defending the tariffs, taxes, or administration. The US administration has given its views on what they are attempting to achieve. It's fair enough to call what they've said BS and not discuss it because you see it as an error.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something; I apologize if that's the case. It perplexes me that you discussed US tariffs in this thread, but you've stated your belief that such a discussion can go nowhere. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2025, 05:15:21 am by Cyclotron »
 

Online kite31

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2488 on: September 12, 2025, 05:36:36 am »
Did I write that you were trying to mislead me? No, I said that the statement to which I referred was misleading, in effect if not in intent. That is a general comment.

Most of the rest of your reply is pretty innocuous.

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It perplexes me that you discussed US tariffs in this thread, but you've stated your belief that such a discussion can go nowhere.
Are you easily perplexed?  :)

I might ask equally that if you consider the tariffs distortionary and offer neither defence nor critique of them, why are you commenting? You seem very keen to do so but for what purpose?
 
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Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2489 on: September 12, 2025, 06:04:06 am »
Did I write that you were trying to mislead me? No, I said that the statement to which I referred was misleading, in effect if not in intent. That is a general comment.
Absolutely, apologies again.

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Most of the rest of your reply is pretty innocuous.
I'm glad I could settle you on those.

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It perplexes me that you discussed US tariffs in this thread, but you've stated your belief that such a discussion can go nowhere.
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Are you easily perplexed?  :)
:-DD

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I might ask equally that if you consider the tariffs distortionary and offer neither defence nor critique of them, why are you commenting? You seem very keen to do so but for what purpose?

I see. A question to a question. That seems to be evasive, but your reasons are yours; you are welcome to remain coy. Welcome to the tariffs discussion!

As for me, I do not believe a discussion of the topic can go nowhere.

I liked the de minimis exception and hope it returns, though I doubt it.

My sister died from fentanyl, so I have hope that something in these measures will lead to someone's loved ones being spared. Those are the claims at the moment and we will see if they pan out.
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2490 on: September 12, 2025, 06:32:20 am »
My sister died from fentanyl, so I have hope that something in these measures will lead to someone's loved ones being spared. Those are the claims at the moment and we will see if they pan out.
I assume she wasn't held against her will and administered fentanyl.  So why did she choose to take fentanyl in the first place?  If you can answer that, then THAT would lead to loved ones being saved.
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2491 on: September 12, 2025, 06:45:01 am »
My sister died from fentanyl, so I have hope that something in these measures will lead to someone's loved ones being spared. Those are the claims at the moment and we will see if they pan out.
I assume she wasn't held against her will and administered fentanyl.  So why did she choose to take fentanyl in the first place?  If you can answer that, then THAT would lead to loved ones being saved.

I am not aware of the circumstances that led to her overdose, just the outcome. Not being aware of whether it was voluntarily ingested, slipped to her, or forced upon her doesn't seem to provide any answers as far as I can tell.

As I understand your argument, the elimination of the weapon used isn't necessary to save loved ones, only the impetus to use them. That's an idea.
Does seeking answers in her death preclude the hope that these claims of efforts to slow or eliminate it would have a positive impact on others?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2025, 06:47:04 am by Cyclotron »
 

Offline Analog Kid

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2492 on: September 12, 2025, 07:18:12 am »
My sister died from fentanyl, so I have hope that something in these measures will lead to someone's loved ones being spared. Those are the claims at the moment and we will see if they pan out.

So I'm wondering just what you meant by "these measures".
I suspect (and I could be wrong, in which case my bad) that you might be referring to such measures as the recent totally crazy, illegal, murderous, contrary to international law and just plain saber-rattling extrajudicial killings of the supposed "drug boat" off the coast of Venezuela.

A "drug boat" that couldn't possibly be carrying any quantity of drugs, including fentanyl, to be sold in the US.
A boat in which, supposedly, 11 people were killed. (Apparently by a drone, according to Sen. Rand Paul.)

Is this the kind of "measure" you're referring to?

(There's even a question as to whether this rather heinous flaunting of international norms even fucking happened, or where it was just an "AI" creation.)

Because, guess what: Venezuela isn't even a major source of fentanyl.
If you're looking for the bad guys here, look farther south, to Colombia, Argentina, Brazil, Chile.
Anything having to do with Venezuela is just very thinly disguised attempted regime change.
By your guy Trump.
 

Online kite31

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2493 on: September 12, 2025, 07:28:25 am »

I see. A question to a question. That seems to be evasive, but your reasons are yours; you are welcome to remain coy.
No, I already answered, though I added a smiley to it.

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My sister died from fentanyl, so I have hope that something in these measures will lead to someone's loved ones being spared. Those are the claims at the moment and we will see if they pan out.
I am very sorry to hear of your loss.

Are tariffs being imposed on fentanyl? The stated relationship appears to be one of attempting to use commercial pressure to modify unrelated activity (border controls) of some other countries where that activity, a branch of "hard on drugs", has no great history of success and in no respect addresses the bases of consumer demand. However, China scheduled fentanyl and some manufacture of precursors years ago, and their penalties on offenders are heavy. I had not heard that Europe, Africa, Oceanic countries or Heard Is were exporters of fentanyl to the US. The US exports some to Canada.

If you want to stop drugs, look to demand, and to co-operation between all governments in the supply chain.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2494 on: September 12, 2025, 07:31:34 am »
My sister died from fentanyl, so I have hope that something in these measures will lead to someone's loved ones being spared. Those are the claims at the moment and we will see if they pan out.

That is hard on the survivors; my condolences. I can imagine such an event would warp my thinking.

Why do you think tariffs will have any significant effect on the supply of fentanyl? Discuss in the context of other illegal drugs.

Why do you think tariffs will have an effect when there are more serious penalties for other illegal drugs?

Fundamentally T'rump likes tariffs, and has said as much. In order for him to impose tariffs there has to be a national emergency. Hence he invented a national emergency based around fentanyl, and ignored other illegal drugs.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2495 on: September 12, 2025, 07:47:38 am »
Can we stop the talk about the fentanyl please, this isn't the forum for this even if it's tariff related.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2496 on: September 12, 2025, 08:38:12 am »
Can we stop the talk about the fentanyl please, this isn't the forum for this even if it's tariff related.

Yeah; that's the horns of the dilemma.

This thread has been off the rails for a long time, becoming noticeably worse in the past month.

The best interpretation is that it keeps it in one place. Compare and contrast with the alt.* usenet hierarchy.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2025, 08:41:52 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Cyclotron

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2497 on: September 12, 2025, 02:54:03 pm »
Can we stop the talk about the fentanyl please, this isn't the forum for this even if it's tariff related.

Apologies Dave.
I shouldn't be surprised that it triggered folks. I have "hope" and if good can happen, I hope it does.
I was asked why I care. 

My first, and primary point was the loss of de minimis that impacts me a lot.

Speaking of which.....

What are you seeing in your sales to the US? I assume this has had some impact to your business.
Is it easier to sell into Canada?  I travel there pretty often and might order some gear delivered to a friend there.

 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2498 on: September 12, 2025, 03:56:52 pm »
An interesting gambit by Trump recently, trying to turn proper sactions (ie. secondary sanctions, the only ones which work) for the war into tariffs and trying to get the EU to take the lead.

If the EU does finally properly sanction Russia, the disruption to trade could get far worse yet.
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: Tariffs
« Reply #2499 on: September 12, 2025, 04:17:17 pm »
can someone explain in simple terms why if the tarriffs are bringing  so much money in that the us debt limit needs raising by $5trillion
 


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