Siglent SDS3000X HD and upgraded SDS1000X HD

[mawyatt]

@2N3055

You were rigtht. I looked at the wrong values, not stdev but stdev(stdev).
I repeated the measurment after a self-calibration of the scope.

This time I have two points.
First the same a before +
CH1 mean(stdev) 5.268 mv
CH2 mean(stdev) 5.301 mv
CH3 mean(stdev) 5.701 mv
CH4 mean(stdev) 5.815 mv

I assume CH1 and CH2 share an A/D-converter and CH3 and CH4 the second one.
That is a diff 0.8dB and ok, but something one has to keep at back of his
mind.

Second is the difference between RMS and stdev.
The scope was warmed up half an hour before self-calibration was started.
I owned a Siglent SDS2354X Plus before and I remember that past
a self-calibration the differences between rms and stdev were
remarkable mininal.
So I assume the self-calibration routine could need some improvement.


So I am still interested in the values others see repeating
the same measurement at same conditions at their scopes.

Another observation is that were the rms differences to stdev
values indicate an dc offset (past input condenser, I measured AC)
the stdev(stdev) is high.
Has anybody idea what could cause this?

At 0.5mV the lowest noise is at CH1 with 109.4 uV ant 50 Ohm.
This result in a noise power of P = 239.37pW or 10xlog(P x 1000) = -66.2 dBm
at  full bandwith.

Divided by the bandwidth of 750MHz (datasheet) this gives -154.95 dBm/Hz
If the bandwith is ca. 1.2 GHz (meassured) this gives -157 dBm/Hz.
Both are very good noisefigures of 19 and 17.


I deleted my previous post and with it the fanboy statement.

Just came across this as we are seriously looking at the SDS3000X HD.

Shouldn't the Noise Power Density be computed as the Total Noise Power measured divided by the "Equivalent Noise Bandwidth" and not the 3dB Bandwidth? For example, the ENB of a 1st order LP Filter is pi/2 times the 3dB BW, and the ENB approaches the 3dB BW with higher order LP Filters.

If so, then the DSO Noise Figure is even better than 17dB, as the ENB is always greater than the 3dB BW, and since the DSO doesn't have a "steep rolloff" effective input low pass filter, maybe a couple dB better NF?

Does anyone know the ENB of these scopes?

Best

[egonotto]

Hello,

the noise of the SDS3000X HD is very good at 1 V/div. Under 6 mV rms at 1 GHz. At 1 mV/div it is not so good compared with MXO 4 and HD3, for example.
With my SDS3000X HD, a bandwidth restriction is sometimes of little use.

Best regards
egonotto

[2N3055]

@2N3055

You were rigtht. I looked at the wrong values, not stdev but stdev(stdev).
I repeated the measurment after a self-calibration of the scope.

This time I have two points.
First the same a before +
CH1 mean(stdev) 5.268 mv
CH2 mean(stdev) 5.301 mv
CH3 mean(stdev) 5.701 mv
CH4 mean(stdev) 5.815 mv

I assume CH1 and CH2 share an A/D-converter and CH3 and CH4 the second one.
That is a diff 0.8dB and ok, but something one has to keep at back of his
mind.

Second is the difference between RMS and stdev.
The scope was warmed up half an hour before self-calibration was started.
I owned a Siglent SDS2354X Plus before and I remember that past
a self-calibration the differences between rms and stdev were
remarkable mininal.
So I assume the self-calibration routine could need some improvement.


So I am still interested in the values others see repeating
the same measurement at same conditions at their scopes.

Another observation is that were the rms differences to stdev
values indicate an dc offset (past input condenser, I measured AC)
the stdev(stdev) is high.
Has anybody idea what could cause this?

At 0.5mV the lowest noise is at CH1 with 109.4 uV ant 50 Ohm.
This result in a noise power of P = 239.37pW or 10xlog(P x 1000) = -66.2 dBm
at  full bandwith.

Divided by the bandwidth of 750MHz (datasheet) this gives -154.95 dBm/Hz
If the bandwith is ca. 1.2 GHz (meassured) this gives -157 dBm/Hz.
Both are very good noisefigures of 19 and 17.


I deleted my previous post and with it the fanboy statement.

Just came across this as we are seriously looking at the SDS3000X HD.

Shouldn't the Noise Power Density be computed as the Total Noise Power measured divided by the "Equivalent Noise Bandwidth" and not the 3dB Bandwidth? For example, the ENB of a 1st order LP Filter is pi/2 times the 3dB BW, and the ENB approaches the 3dB BW with higher order LP Filters.

If so, then the DSO Noise Figure is even better than 17dB, as the ENB is always greater than the 3dB BW, and since the DSO doesn't have a "steep rolloff" effective input low pass filter, maybe a couple dB better NF?

Does anyone know the ENB of these scopes?

Best

As usual, correct. RMS will calculate across full spectrum it has in buffer. Nominal BW is only -3dB. There will be significant energy from that point to actual stopband.

Apart from the contribution from analog front end, there is ADC noise contribution that has more bandwidth. These ADC have larger than 1GHz BW at their sampling inputs.

1GHz scope I have has 120µV RMS noise at full BW, one channel enabled, interleaved at 4GS/s.
By looking at the FFT of the noise floor, I would "guesstimate" 1,4-1,5 GHz ENB, by simply visually "folding" the tail up and back on top of the slope to get rectangular window.

That makes it cca -157 dBm/Hz,  which makes Kladit's second estimate plausible order of magnitude.

But it is not that simple. When non interleaved, scope drops to 2 GS/s and enables digital filtering of anything above 1GHz. RMS noise drops to 100µV RMS and with ENB of 1GHz (again we can see it in FFT), we get, again consistent -157 dBm/Hz

So I would say that would be good order of magnitude figure.

[Martin72]

Divided by the bandwidth of 750MHz (datasheet)

According to the data sheet, it is 800Mhz (EN01B). The display “750M” in the channel info boxes will be corrected accordingly.

At 1 mV/div it is not so good compared with MXO 4 and HD3, for example.

But that's more in the direction of negligible.

[KungFuJosh]

At 1 mV/div it is not so good compared with MXO 4 and HD3, for example.

But that's more in the direction of negligible.

Totally worth the $17000 price difference tho. 😉

[Martin72]

Hehehhe....

[asmi]

Is 3000X HD series unlockable? Also, will it work with SDG6022X AWG for bode plot function?

[Martin72]

Also, will it work with SDG6022X AWG for bode plot function?

Yes.

[asmi]

Yes.

What about the first question?

[asmi]

Also, will it work with SDG6022X AWG for bode plot function?

Yes.

Also - do this require purchasing some option for the scope? I don't see anything like that listed for the 3K series.

[Martin72]

Hi,
Unlike other brands, Bode Plot is a standard feature with Siglent; the integrated frequency generator is optional.
Since the SDS3000X HD does not have one, there is no option for it.
You can use the Bode plot in this way, except that there is no internal generator to choose from.

BS written...

You can buy a Siglent SAG1021I, the license for controlling it is already integrated.

[tautech]

Also, will it work with SDG6022X AWG for bode plot function?

Any Siglent DSO with the Bode plot feature will work seamlessly with any of the current Siglent AWG range.

Via USB, plug and play. For LAN each instruments IP address needs be configured.

[asmi]

Any Siglent DSO with the Bode plot feature will work seamlessly with any of the current Siglent AWG range.

Does that require some sort of license, or it's available out of the box?

[tautech]

Any Siglent DSO with the Bode plot feature will work seamlessly with any of the current Siglent AWG range.

Does that require some sort of license, or it's available out of the box?

Standard feature, works straight outta the box without any sort of licensing.

[Martin72]

I must have expressed myself incorrectly earlier:
Yes, you can get started right away with Siglent generators; no license for the Bode plot is required.
It has never been required for this function.

Here is the “proof” that Siglent SDG6000X is recognized correctly.

[asmi]

Standard feature, works straight outta the box without any sort of licensing.

Thanks for clarification, I was confused by this statement of the manual (see screenshot), which refers to an option SDS3000HD-FG, but it isn't listed in the list of available options.

[KungFuJosh]

Standard feature, works straight outta the box without any sort of licensing.

Thanks for clarification, I was confused by this statement of the manual (see screenshot), which refers to an option SDS3000HD-FG, but it isn't listed in the list of available options.

That's outdated. They made the FG option not optional anymore. 😉

[tautech]

Standard feature, works straight outta the box without any sort of licensing.

Thanks for clarification, I was confused by this statement of the manual (see screenshot), which refers to an option SDS3000HD-FG, but it isn't listed in the list of available options.

SDS3000HD-FG licensing was to use with SAG1021I and was abolished last year so that any SAG1021I could be used with any Siglent DSO without needing a FG license for every DSO.

However for Bode plot use licensing was never required, be it for any of the external AWG's or inbuilt FG's.

Eg, SDS2000X Plus has internal AWG that can be used for Bode plot at any time yet unless that model range is licensed it can't be used for normal AWG duties.

Bode plot has been PlugnPlay since inception in all models that support it.

[Martin72]

That's outdated. They made the FG option not optional anymore. 😉

Yes, the document maintenance is a bit slow.

[mawyatt]

The SDS3034X HD just arrived, wanted to attempt to get something before the US stock is depleted and the tariffs likely take effect with replacement shipments.

Highly impressed so far, and came with latest firmware and detailed Calibration performed mid January!

All parameters are well within spec limits which are pretty good in their own right

First thing we did was a full 4MPT FFT of an ERES enhanced channel....nice

Edit:  Just checked rise time at ~815ps with an unknown source (ADF4351....fastest pulse source we have available).

Best

[mawyatt]

Here's what the 4 channels look like driven from the ADF4351.

Best

[Martin72]

Congratulations Mike, you've got yourself the best scope you can afford.
Anything better would be much more expensive.
It's a little different from the smaller models, but you'll notice that soon enough.
It is “almost” an “A” model, as can be seen from the attachment to the multi-page calibration report.

Edit:  Just checked rise time at ~815ps with an unknown source (ADF4351....fastest pulse source we have available).

Didn't you also have a Batronix demo board?
Josh has one, I know, but I thought you got one too.
It has a fast pulse on it.

[egonotto]

Hello,

Congratulations on the new SDS3034X HD.

Does your new SDS3034X HD also show the spikes in FFT that we discussed in Reply #1049 and following?

Best regards
egonotto

[mawyatt]

Congratulations Mike, you've got yourself the best scope you can afford.
Anything better would be much more expensive.
It's a little different from the smaller models, but you'll notice that soon enough.
It is “almost” an “A” model, as can be seen from the attachment to the multi-page calibration report.

Didn't you also have a Batronix demo board?
Josh has one, I know, but I thought you got one too.
It has a fast pulse on it.

Yes you immediately see/feel the difference. Surprised by the Cal sheet, they certainly parameter checked quite a bit!!

We don't have the Batronix Demo Board, so our fastest pulse source is ADF4351.

Best

[mawyatt]

Hello,

Congratulations on the new SDS3034X HD.

Does your new SDS3034X HD also show the spikes in FFT that we discussed in Reply #1049 and following?

Best regards
egonotto

Thanks for the reminder, we had totally forgot about this!!

Just checked and yes ours shows same spectral content. Since they are "exact" frequencies, expect they originate from the internal ADC clocking source.

Best