Tariffs

[krish2487]

The goal here is not to redistribute wealth but to build domestic capabilities.

Those socialist talking points are not relevant to the topic here.

1. I agree thats the intended goal.. the actual outcome is very different. and I never mentioned anything about redistributing wealth, just about combating the rise in prices owing to the tariffs.

Let me see if I can make it easier to understand.. none of the incentives achieve the goals of either
1. increasing the capabilities of the companies and consequently the country as a whole
2. ensuring more money gets into the hands of the lowest level of the working force, to combat the tariffs related inflation.

2. Which part of either of these two statements is a socialist talking point? Its directly relevant to the tariffs at hand.

[tggzzz]

If a country lacks the conditions to produce certain goods, whether it is 3nm chips or bananas, it is usually more beneficial to build economic ties with other nations than to sever them through blanket tariffs that make little sense.

That's the false dilemma fallacy.  There are additional options, for example creating the incentives and conditions for for domestic production of strategic technology such as 3nm.

Maybe, but you'll never grow bananas in the continental US.

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

[TimFox]

My favorite trade war, 1993-2012, was between the EU and the US over bananas, which neither side grows.
Each side imposed duties and quotas on exports from the other, such as cheese and whiskey.
EU was protecting former French colonies in Africa, while the US was protecting the Central American banana republics (and the US companies working there).

[zapta]

Maybe, but you'll never grow bananas in the continental US.

Duly noted that you had inject the 'continental' restriction to make an argument.

[Analog Kid]

Maybe, but you'll never grow bananas in the continental US.

Duly noted that you had inject the 'continental' restriction to make an argument.

Well, sure: all we have to do is to retake the Panama Canal (like Trump keeps bloviating about), start some banana plantations in the Canal Zone and we're in business.

[Analog Kid]

If a country lacks the conditions to produce certain goods, whether it is 3nm chips or bananas, it is usually more beneficial to build economic ties with other nations than to sever them through blanket tariffs that make little sense.

That's the false dilemma fallacy.  There are additional options, for example creating the incentives and conditions for for domestic production of strategic technology such as 3nm.

Maybe, but you'll never grow bananas in the continental US.

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test. That's gonna need a citation or two.
I suppose you could grow them in some kind of greenhouse, but that certainly ain't commercially viable. (Well, maybe on Elon Musk's space colony.)

[themadhippy]

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test.

sniff this
https://icelandmag.is/article/does-iceland-really-have-europes-largest-banana-plantation

inhale deeply
https://modernfarmer.com/2014/11/frozen-banana-republic/

[shabaz]

My favorite trade war, 1993-2012, was between the EU and the US over bananas, which neither side grows.

I'm no expert on this and I could be spreading incorrect information, but as I understand, the method in the madness might be related to the relative importance of that fruit versus others. Basically amongst other properties, it can be so soft, that both babies and elderly can eat it, so it's considered an important food to guarantee is always available (at a price that parents and elderly can afford) hence all the effort expended on rules/regulations for it. Of course, some politicians used it to their advantage, because a banana is inherently a humorous fruit to use as an example of bureaucracy gone mad with said banana trade wars! : )

[Analog Kid]

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test.

sniff this
https://icelandmag.is/article/does-iceland-really-have-europes-largest-banana-plantation

inhale deeply
https://modernfarmer.com/2014/11/frozen-banana-republic/

OK:

Despite the fact that Iceland’s climate is not ideal to growing bananas, Iceland probably has Europe‘s largest banana plantation. Located in a greenhouse in the village of Reykir in South Iceland, the Icelandic banana production is managed by the Icelandic Agricultural University. The annual harvest is admittedly quite low, only 500-2,000 kg of annually.

Sorry, that doesn't really count in my book.

You can grow pretty much anything anywhere in a greenhouse.
Doesn't make it commercially viable, which is the criteria I've repeatedly given.

It's an interesting oddity is all.

Let's put it this way: Harry Belafonte ain't gonna be singing "Day-O!" in Iceland anytime soon.

[nctnico]

Actually, bananas are a poor example. Google around a bit and you'll find that bananas are sold at a loss because they lure people to shops AND it seems banana plantations are threatened by disseases so much that it is very likely there won't be any banana plantations left in the very near future. So it makes sense to start growing bananas in a greenhouse. At the very least to preserve bananas.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scotttravers/2025/05/10/the-bananas-we-eat-every-day-might-be-going-extinct---a-biologist-highlights-an-impending-disaster/

Bananapocalypse

[tggzzz]

If a country lacks the conditions to produce certain goods, whether it is 3nm chips or bananas, it is usually more beneficial to build economic ties with other nations than to sever them through blanket tariffs that make little sense.

That's the false dilemma fallacy.  There are additional options, for example creating the incentives and conditions for for domestic production of strategic technology such as 3nm.

Maybe, but you'll never grow bananas in the continental US.

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test. That's gonna need a citation or two.
I suppose you could grow them in some kind of greenhouse, but that certainly ain't commercially viable. (Well, maybe on Elon Musk's space colony.)

I've seen them growing there, in a very large greenhouse of course.

Don't forget the heating is free (and green), and the summer hours are long.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/bananas-in-iceland

https://icelandmag.is/article/does-iceland-really-have-europes-largest-banana-plantation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_production_in_Iceland

[tggzzz]

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test.

sniff this
https://icelandmag.is/article/does-iceland-really-have-europes-largest-banana-plantation

inhale deeply
https://modernfarmer.com/2014/11/frozen-banana-republic/

OK:

Despite the fact that Iceland’s climate is not ideal to growing bananas, Iceland probably has Europe‘s largest banana plantation. Located in a greenhouse in the village of Reykir in South Iceland, the Icelandic banana production is managed by the Icelandic Agricultural University. The annual harvest is admittedly quite low, only 500-2,000 kg of annually.

Sorry, that doesn't really count in my book.

You can grow pretty much anything anywhere in a greenhouse.
Doesn't make it commercially viable, which is the criteria I've repeatedly given.

It's an interesting oddity is all.

Let's put it this way: Harry Belafonte ain't gonna be singing "Day-O!" in Iceland anytime soon.

Inhale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Note the tense in my earlier statement, and realise you really have zero clue what Iceland was like when it started and was commercial.

Even 40 years ago I went into the main regional supermarket and saw potatoes the size of hens eggs. Each potato was individually priced.

[Analog Kid]

Oh, give me a fucking break.

You can throw all the highfalutin' logical fallacies at me that you like; still doesn't change the fact that Iceland is never, ever going to supplant the Caribbean and Central America (and the Phillipines, all places within 30° of the equator), as the world's main source of bananas.

No true Scotsman my ass.

Next!

[Monkeh]

Oh, give me a fucking break.

You can throw all the highfalutin' logical fallacies at me that you like; still doesn't change the fact that Iceland is never, ever going to supplant the Caribbean and Central America (and the Phillipines, all places within 30° of the equator), as the world's main source of bananas.

No true Scotsman my ass.

Next!

Can we just accept that you should have been a little more careful with your wording to begin with in this crowd?

Grow bananas in the US? Sure. Supply the market meaningfully, no.

[Analog Kid]

Oh, give me a fucking break.

You can throw all the highfalutin' logical fallacies at me that you like; still doesn't change the fact that Iceland is never, ever going to supplant the Caribbean and Central America (and the Phillipines, all places within 30° of the equator), as the world's main source of bananas.

No true Scotsman my ass.

Next!

Can we just accept that you should have been a little more careful with your wording to begin with in this crowd?

Grow bananas in the US? Sure. Supply the market meaningfully, no.

Well, that last has been my position all along here, so we seem to be in agreement.
I'm not the one who's been pushing growing bananas here; that's Trump's idiotic Commerce secretary.

[Simon]

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test. That's gonna need a citation or two.
I suppose you could grow them in some kind of greenhouse, but that certainly ain't commercially viable. (Well, maybe on Elon Musk's space colony.)

It never occurred to you that Iceland has a limitless supply of hot water that can be used to heat greenhouses? No I have not read the articles but that would be my guess.

[Analog Kid]

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test. That's gonna need a citation or two.
I suppose you could grow them in some kind of greenhouse, but that certainly ain't commercially viable. (Well, maybe on Elon Musk's space colony.)

It never occurred to you that Iceland has a limitless supply of hot water that can be used to heat greenhouses? No I have not read the articles but that would be my guess.

You may have missed the quote I pulled from one of the linked articles:

Despite the fact that Iceland’s climate is not ideal to growing bananas, Iceland probably has Europe‘s largest banana plantation. Located in a greenhouse in the village of Reykir in South Iceland, the Icelandic banana production is managed by the Icelandic Agricultural University. The annual harvest is admittedly quite low, only 500-2,000 kg of annually.

(emphasis mine)

Point being that maybe, theoretically, Iceland could become a major banana exporter. However, that appears highly unlikely.
In other words, as I wrote earlier, an interesting oddity but nothing more. It appears to be nothing more than an academic research project.

(Besides, I wonder what those hothouse bananas taste like.)

And yes, I know all about geothermal energy. The town I live in has an extensive geothermal network that heats many buildings and melts snow off sidewalks in the winter.

[Analog Kid]

A quote from another article from the same source (Iceland Magazine) which shows how unlikely it is that Iceland will ever become a major banana exporter:

Banana production in Iceland began in the 1930’s in greenhouses heated with geothermal energy. However, Iceland imports nearly all of the bananas consumed in the country.

Let's say the chances of that happening are about the same as those of Greenland being annexed by the United States (or of Alcatraz being turned back into a federal prison, another of Trump's cockamamie "ideas").

[krish2487]

A quote from another article from the same source (Iceland Magazine) which shows how unlikely it is that Iceland will ever become a major banana exporter:

Banana production in Iceland began in the 1930’s in greenhouses heated with geothermal energy. However, Iceland imports nearly all of the bananas consumed in the country.

Let's say the chances of that happening are about the same as those of Greenland being annexed by the United States (or of Alcatraz being turned back into a federal prison, another of Trump's cockamamie "ideas").

So a decent chance then eh....

[vk6zgo]

You do not want to rely on foreign manufacturing for tanks and air defense systems.

and what if your  local manufacturer is owned by a foreign corporation?

It depends upon the foreign corporation. GM had a lot of subsidiary companies, which pretty much "went their own way" until Detroit decided that they, & only they, were the "font of all knowledge" & started to meddle.
Where are all those subsidiaries, now?

[vk6zgo]

You do not want to rely on foreign manufacturing for tanks and air defense systems. A hard lesson Ukraine is currently learning. On the other hand, there is no need to bring horse saddle manufacturing back onshore. Saddles are no longer strategic products that the armed forces depend on.

This still raises an interesting proposition, for example;

If the USA cannot currently maintain a strategic reserve for manufacturing critical semiconductors used in defense systems, does that mean;

a) USA should do everything to acquire the domestic expertise and domestic resources for advanced semiconductor manufacturing, or

b) USA should abandon advanced semiconductor technology and develop strategic equipment based on older technology (i.e. resume making semiconductors using 180nm wafers.... or go back to vacuum tubes.... and carburetors.... and horse saddles)

Bendix in the USA was working on Electronic fuel injection systems in the mid 1950s, admittedly, with a full sized rack alongside the test engine.
It obviously couldn't compete with carburettors or the quite sophisticated mechanical fuel injection systems of the time, nor was there any call for it in that time of cheap fuel & minimal environmental regulation.

[tggzzz]

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test. That's gonna need a citation or two.
I suppose you could grow them in some kind of greenhouse, but that certainly ain't commercially viable. (Well, maybe on Elon Musk's space colony.)

It never occurred to you that Iceland has a limitless supply of hot water that can be used to heat greenhouses? No I have not read the articles but that would be my guess.

And electricity too.

That's why there are three aluminium smelters in a country that doesn't mine aluminium.

N.B. aluminium smelting requires a lot of electricity.

[Zero999]

Why not? Bananas have been grown commercially in Iceland, which misses the arctic circle by a whisker.

That, my friend, doesn't even pass the smell test. That's gonna need a citation or two.
I suppose you could grow them in some kind of greenhouse, but that certainly ain't commercially viable. (Well, maybe on Elon Musk's space colony.)

It never occurred to you that Iceland has a limitless supply of hot water that can be used to heat greenhouses? No I have not read the articles but that would be my guess.

You can even come and visit it.
https://www.visiticeland.com/article/the-greenhouse-revolution-in-iceland

Some species in the banana family are quite cold hardy, but they don't produce tasty fruit. Musa basjoo and Musa sikkimensis grow at high altitudes and can tolerate temperatures down to -12°C.  I've heard about research into cross-breeding them with species which produce tasty fruit, but I haven't seen any proof of success. Either way, even if it were possible to make a nice tasting, cold hardy banana, it will require more heat in summer, than Iceland, so it cultivation outside will be restricted to southern Europe and US.

[TimFox]

If you think the current activity about tariffs is for economic or equity purposes, consider the latest stories about impending tariffs against Brazil.
The US actually has a modest trade surplus with Brazil, but there is pending criminal prosecution against the previous leader for allegedly plotting a coup after losing the election.
He is a friend of someone in high places, who may have done something similar.
This is stated explicitly in a letter to Brazil, threatening 50% tariffs unless they reverse course.
See:  https://apnews.com/article/brazil-trump-tariffs-bolsonaro-lula-us-d45722a041324a732fe0435000360745

[vad]

I am wondering whether the admin has sent the letter to the penguins of Heard and McDonald Islands yet.