Tariffs

[Cyclotron]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

[tggzzz]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

Almost everywhere, since it is the best alternative available. That does not apply to chlorinated chicken

Fluorine is added too; the "wellness/goop industry" hates that: https://wellnesswater.co.uk/areas-of-the-uk-with-fluoride-added-to-drinking-and-tap-water/

[Zero999]

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

'adult' != 'polymath'

There is a reason why ingredients lists use safe-sounding names instead of well-known ones. And that's after manufacturers were forced to list ingredients so that 'adults' better knew what they were eating.

You need to be particularly anal to go through the supermarket's chicken shelves and figure out the potential for how the chickens were raised, if they've been treated with antibiotics just to get them to live long enough to die for the plate, etc. The labeling, if it even gives a clue, aims not to make it easy.

And that's discounting the straight out lying, for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

What's that got to do with permitting small quantities of raw milk being sold? I'm not talking about small print, but proper labelling on the front of the bottle.

So, you want to be able to choose between food stuffs known to be dangerous and equivalent food stuffs known to be safe? Why stop there? Why don't you want go back a century, when milk was regularly adulterated and was one of the more dangerous foods you could buy? (FFI see how/why "flowers of sulphur" were used)

Most people live in ignorance - you included - and prefer not to have to worry about that, leaving them to spend their lives more productively.

If the front panel labelling says "chicken bacteria partially washed off with a WW1 poison gas", then you might have a point. Of course the MSFM would never put it like that. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, the UK regulations permit foreign meats to be sold as British if they were last processed in this country.

False equivalence. Raw milk is not inherently dangerous. It does pose a higher risk of being contaminated, but it's not the same thing as inhaling poison gas.

[tszaboo]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

If we are talking about water already, we should bring up why the UK has two different taps in the kitchen.
So apparently because there might be dead rats floating in their hot water heaters. And unlike everywhere else, where they fixed the problem with the heater, UK decided to have a separate tap, so you can still wash your hands in dead rat water, but not drink it. Nice.

[tggzzz]

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

'adult' != 'polymath'

There is a reason why ingredients lists use safe-sounding names instead of well-known ones. And that's after manufacturers were forced to list ingredients so that 'adults' better knew what they were eating.

You need to be particularly anal to go through the supermarket's chicken shelves and figure out the potential for how the chickens were raised, if they've been treated with antibiotics just to get them to live long enough to die for the plate, etc. The labeling, if it even gives a clue, aims not to make it easy.

And that's discounting the straight out lying, for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

What's that got to do with permitting small quantities of raw milk being sold? I'm not talking about small print, but proper labelling on the front of the bottle.

So, you want to be able to choose between food stuffs known to be dangerous and equivalent food stuffs known to be safe? Why stop there? Why don't you want go back a century, when milk was regularly adulterated and was one of the more dangerous foods you could buy? (FFI see how/why "flowers of sulphur" were used)

Most people live in ignorance - you included - and prefer not to have to worry about that, leaving them to spend their lives more productively.

If the front panel labelling says "chicken bacteria partially washed off with a WW1 poison gas", then you might have a point. Of course the MSFM would never put it like that. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, the UK regulations permit foreign meats to be sold as British if they were last processed in this country.

False equivalence. Raw milk is not inherently dangerous. It does pose a higher risk of being contaminated, but it's not the same thing as inhaling poison gas.

Whoooosh.

After you chose to miss the point, that's the sound it made as it whizzed past you.

Other people will have noted the point.

[tggzzz]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

If we are talking about water already, we should bring up why the UK has two different taps in the kitchen.
So apparently because there might be dead rats floating in their hot water heaters. And unlike everywhere else, where they fixed the problem with the heater, UK decided to have a separate tap, so you can still wash your hands in dead rat water, but not drink it. Nice.

Clearly you have never been in a UK kitchen - and yet you still spout alternative facts.

[Cyclotron]

The UK is continuing the ban on hormone-treated beef. At least as far as I can see in the latest trade deal.

From what I can see, the US lifted its ban on UK beef (Mad Cow-related) in 2020.
It's been a while, but I thought that mad cow was due to the beef being fed meat and bone meal from beef and sheep?

[Zero999]

The bottom line is: treat people like adults and allow them to make their own decisions.

'adult' != 'polymath'

There is a reason why ingredients lists use safe-sounding names instead of well-known ones. And that's after manufacturers were forced to list ingredients so that 'adults' better knew what they were eating.

You need to be particularly anal to go through the supermarket's chicken shelves and figure out the potential for how the chickens were raised, if they've been treated with antibiotics just to get them to live long enough to die for the plate, etc. The labeling, if it even gives a clue, aims not to make it easy.

And that's discounting the straight out lying, for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

What's that got to do with permitting small quantities of raw milk being sold? I'm not talking about small print, but proper labelling on the front of the bottle.

So, you want to be able to choose between food stuffs known to be dangerous and equivalent food stuffs known to be safe? Why stop there? Why don't you want go back a century, when milk was regularly adulterated and was one of the more dangerous foods you could buy? (FFI see how/why "flowers of sulphur" were used)

Most people live in ignorance - you included - and prefer not to have to worry about that, leaving them to spend their lives more productively.

If the front panel labelling says "chicken bacteria partially washed off with a WW1 poison gas", then you might have a point. Of course the MSFM would never put it like that. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, the UK regulations permit foreign meats to be sold as British if they were last processed in this country.

False equivalence. Raw milk is not inherently dangerous. It does pose a higher risk of being contaminated, but it's not the same thing as inhaling poison gas.

Whoooosh.

After you chose to miss the point, that's the sound it made as it whizzed past you.

Other people will have noted the point.

What was your point? Raw milk is not equivalent to pasteurised milk. It's not the same thing.

[PlainName]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

If we are talking about water already, we should bring up why the UK has two different taps in the kitchen.
So apparently because there might be dead rats floating in their hot water heaters. And unlike everywhere else, where they fixed the problem with the heater, UK decided to have a separate tap, so you can still wash your hands in dead rat water, but not drink it. Nice.

You do come out with some utter bullshit, you know.

We have two taps because one is hot and the other is cold. That's just how the stuff is put into houses like 100 years ago when hot water came from a pan on the stove. Nowadays we have single taps (but still two levers - one for hot and one for cold). How the fuck else would you be able to have hot and, separately, cold water?

There /is/ a potential problem with hot water systems - legionnaires disease. But that has nothing to do with single or dual taps.

[Zero999]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

If we are talking about water already, we should bring up why the UK has two different taps in the kitchen.
So apparently because there might be dead rats floating in their hot water heaters. And unlike everywhere else, where they fixed the problem with the heater, UK decided to have a separate tap, so you can still wash your hands in dead rat water, but not drink it. Nice.

You do come out with some utter bullshit, you know.

We have two taps because one is hot and the other is cold. That's just how the stuff is put into houses like 100 years ago when hot water came from a pan on the stove. Nowadays we have single taps (but still two levers - one for hot and one for cold). How the fuck else would you be able to have hot and, separately, cold water?

There /is/ a potential problem with hot water systems - legionnaires disease. But that has nothing to do with single or dual taps.

Legionellae bacteria live in the taps and shower heads, not tanks. It causes disease when someone inhaled aerosolised contaminated water, rather than drinking it. Ideally the water should be hot enough to kill it, that's not always the case.

Indeed. There are several different types of hot water systems in the UK

My parent’s house has a hot water tank. The boiler heats the water in the tank, but it's not delivered directly to the taps. There's a heat exchanger in the tank, which clean water passes through before being delivers to the taps.

My house has a combi boiler which heats the water, as it's being used. The advantage of this system is the boiler only ever works, when heat is demanded, either by the central hearing system, or to heat water.

I don't bother with hot water myself. I wash my hands cold and shower cold. I find hot water dries my skin. I even mostly wash the dishes with cold. Modern detergents work well enough with cold water. I soak more heavily greased items and if that doesn't work, I either boil a kettle, or leave the greasy pan filled with water and detergent on the hob for a few minutes.

[SiliconWizard]

Legionellae bacteria live in the taps and shower heads, not tanks. It causes disease when someone inhaled aerosolised contaminated water, rather than drinking it. Ideally the water should be hot enough to kill it, that's not always the case.

Well, temperatures over about 60°C (IIRC) prevent Legionella from multiplying, so anyone who would have the genius idea of lowering the hot water temperature to reduce their energy bills and because it feels "hot enough" would be in for a nice surprise. And that's not even funny, there's been a surge in recent years: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(24)00299-4/fulltext

[tszaboo]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

If we are talking about water already, we should bring up why the UK has two different taps in the kitchen.
So apparently because there might be dead rats floating in their hot water heaters. And unlike everywhere else, where they fixed the problem with the heater, UK decided to have a separate tap, so you can still wash your hands in dead rat water, but not drink it. Nice.

You do come out with some utter bullshit, you know.

We have two taps because one is hot and the other is cold. That's just how the stuff is put into houses like 100 years ago when hot water came from a pan on the stove. Nowadays we have single taps (but still two levers - one for hot and one for cold). How the fuck else would you be able to have hot and, separately, cold water?

There /is/ a potential problem with hot water systems - legionnaires disease. But that has nothing to do with single or dual taps.

You are right, they are talking about dead bats as well, not only rats in the comments. The dead rats comes from the video.

[PlainName]

Well, temperatures over about 60°C (IIRC) prevent Legionella from multiplying, so anyone who would have the genius idea of lowering the hot water temperature to reduce their energy bills and because it feels "hot enough" would be in for a nice surprise.

60C is good for keeping it at bay, but the problem is that it's pretty much instant scalding so unsafe. A compromise is for the temperature at the tap to be 50C max, and periodically you can whack it up to 60-65C to flush out the system.

[themadhippy]

for instance where your beef product is really horse meat.

worse was the place  passing  horse meat for chicken,was always a bit suspicious about there 6ft drumsticks.

[wilfred]

Is this thread a bunfight yet?

I heard today Toblerone has a 39% tariff. I stopped buying them when they widened the valleys back in 2016.  Did they ever reverse that?
What is the point of a 39% tariff on chocolate? It is not like cocoa is grown in the US. What would be the tariff on cocoa if Toblerone moved production to America? Are US produced chocolates increasing in price with a tariff on cocoa I wonder.

[Cyclotron]

Well, temperatures over about 60°C (IIRC) prevent Legionella from multiplying, so anyone who would have the genius idea of lowering the hot water temperature to reduce their energy bills and because it feels "hot enough" would be in for a nice surprise.

60C is good for keeping it at bay, but the problem is that it's pretty much instant scalding so unsafe. A compromise is for the temperature at the tap to be 50C max, and periodically you can whack it up to 60-65C to flush out the system.

My demand system allows 145°F ~63°C, and I run it at the max. It's in the high 90s for efficiency and uses natural gas, making it very cost-efficient.
It's great to have very hot water near instantly available. I even have it plumbed outside for washing cars, trash cans, and other sundry things.

[tszaboo]

Is this thread a bunfight yet?

I heard today Toblerone has a 39% tariff. I stopped buying them when they widened the valleys back in 2016.  Did they ever reverse that?
What is the point of a 39% tariff on chocolate? It is not like cocoa is grown in the US. What would be the tariff on cocoa if Toblerone moved production to America? Are US produced chocolates increasing in price with a tariff on cocoa I wonder.

Toblerone is Swiss. And no there aren't many cocoa plantation in Switzerland.
It's very cheap chocolate anyway, costs like 1 EUR. Local Dutch or Belgian chocolate that's better costs like 3 times as much.

[Cyclotron]

Is this thread a bunfight yet?

I heard today Toblerone has a 39% tariff. I stopped buying them when they widened the valleys back in 2016.  Did they ever reverse that?
What is the point of a 39% tariff on chocolate? It is not like cocoa is grown in the US. What would be the tariff on cocoa if Toblerone moved production to America? Are US produced chocolates increasing in price with a tariff on cocoa I wonder.

I learned something new: "Bunfight"

Cacao is grown in the US. In fact, I highly recommend the chocolate of Hawaii; it is fantastic. Puerto Rico is also seeing a resurgence in cacao growing, but I have not had any yet.

Primary export markets for Cacao from the US are Canada and Mexico it seems.

[Zero999]

Out of curiosity, isn't the vast public water system in the UK treated and chlorinated?
I know that in London, the tap water was chlorinated, but I'm not sure if that's the case everywhere.

If we are talking about water already, we should bring up why the UK has two different taps in the kitchen.
So apparently because there might be dead rats floating in their hot water heaters. And unlike everywhere else, where they fixed the problem with the heater, UK decided to have a separate tap, so you can still wash your hands in dead rat water, but not drink it. Nice.

You do come out with some utter bullshit, you know.

We have two taps because one is hot and the other is cold. That's just how the stuff is put into houses like 100 years ago when hot water came from a pan on the stove. Nowadays we have single taps (but still two levers - one for hot and one for cold). How the fuck else would you be able to have hot and, separately, cold water?

There /is/ a potential problem with hot water systems - legionnaires disease. But that has nothing to do with single or dual taps.

You are right, they are talking about dead bats as well, not only rats in the comments. The dead rats comes from the video.

That video is nonsense.. In an old installation with cold water header tank feeding the hot water system, a mixer tap can be safely used with a non-return valve fitted.
https://showerpowerbooster.co.uk/blog/check-valves-non-return-valves/

[tszaboo]

That video is nonsense.. In an old installation with cold water header tank feeding the hot water system, a mixer tap can be safely used with a non-return valve fitted.
https://showerpowerbooster.co.uk/blog/check-valves-non-return-valves/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13802657/mum-claims-rotting-rat-water-kids-sick

https://bpca.org.uk/news-and-blog/dealing-with-dead-rodent-odours/275960

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couples-horror-after-discovering-whats-33291060

I could go on, but it's graphic enough to drive the point home.
Before you ask, I have mixer taps, and had never been in a place in EU where this wasn't the norm.

[TimFox]

An old plumber once told me a horror story of an ancient (now illegal) installation in a large hotel where the bathtub water feeds were next to the drain (probably looked cute).
The tub in an unoccupied room was able to syphon waste water into the pipes, with serious consequences.
Of course, such stupid fitting is no longer used here.

[SteveThackery]

My house has a combi boiler which heats the water, as it's being used. The advantage of this system is the boiler only ever works, when heat is demanded, either by the central hearing system, or to heat water.

The other advantage is that the hot water has come straight from the mains, via the heat exchanger in the boiler, so it meets the same hygiene standards. It is perfectly safe to use the water from your hot water tap in cooking and for eating.

The older system, where the water from your hot tap has sat in a cold water header tank for hours or days, is not as hygenic. That water shouldn't be drunk or cooked with. Having said that, I've never heard of anyone coming to harm. As an illustration of how the hot water in this older system is unhygienic, my friends thought the hot water they were using for showering and pot washing smelled funny. They looked inside the header tank in the loft and found a dead bat in it.

Can't happen with combi boilers.

By the way, having one tap with two levers or two taps is purely a matter of preference - it is not related to which type of heating system you use.

[Cyclotron]

This article appears to cover most aspects of chlorinated chicken washing.  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47440562

It boils down to this: there's no chlorine left in any significant quantity on the food. The objection is simple. People think it "could" mean things about the production of the food. There's no evidence listed, at least in this article, that the US-grown poultry is grown significantly differently from any other commercialized system. The complaint is that we don't have the exact same growing regulations, not that we actually don't meet those or exceed them.

The fact that vegetables commercially grown in the EU are subject to the same and for the same reasons (salmonella, seems to indicate acceptance of the process for sanitation of other foods in the region.

If someone can show me evidence contrary to that, I'd like to see it. I will continue to research it too.  As it stands, I'll maintain a view that the ban is purely a crock of BS.

[SteveThackery]

If someone can show me evidence contrary to that, I'd like to see it. I will continue to research it too.  As it stands, I'll maintain a view that the ban is purely a crock of BS.

I'm inclined to agree. Chlorine washing in itself says nothing about the conditions in which the animals were reared. After all, here in the UK all of our pre-packed salads are chlorine washed.

[Zero999]

That video is nonsense.. In an old installation with cold water header tank feeding the hot water system, a mixer tap can be safely used with a non-return valve fitted.
https://showerpowerbooster.co.uk/blog/check-valves-non-return-valves/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13802657/mum-claims-rotting-rat-water-kids-sick

https://bpca.org.uk/news-and-blog/dealing-with-dead-rodent-odours/275960

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couples-horror-after-discovering-whats-33291060

I could go on, but it's graphic enough to drive the point home.
Before you ask, I have mixer taps, and had never been in a place in EU where this wasn't the norm.

So what?

1) Those are old installations.

2) The water is heated, when it passes through the boiler, thus killing most microbes. It's not a good idea to drink it, but is unlikely to cause any harm.

3) A mixer tap has a non-return valve to prevent hot water flowing back into the cold water mains, which is unlikely anyway, since mains pressure is higher than that from the header tank.

This article appears to cover most aspects of chlorinated chicken washing.  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47440562

It boils down to this: there's no chlorine left in any significant quantity on the food. The objection is simple. People think it "could" mean things about the production of the food. There's no evidence listed, at least in this article, that the US-grown poultry is grown significantly differently from any other commercialized system. The complaint is that we don't have the exact same growing regulations, not that we actually don't meet those or exceed them.

The fact that vegetables commercially grown in the EU are subject to the same and for the same reasons (salmonella).

If someone can show me evidence contrary to that, I'd like to see it. I will continue to research it too.  As it stands, I'll maintain a view that the ban is purely a crock of BS.

I believe the opposition to US chicken in the UK is not how it's grown, but the processing. In the UK, chicken is very hygienically butchered and processed after slaughter, so there's no need to wash it. In the US, the chicken isn't butchered and processed to the such high hygiene standards, so it needs to be washed in chlorine disinfectant to clean it.