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Can the Bird read down to 1dBm? Then how do you cal that 50kW CB radio slug?
You don't. You are a True Believer in Bird!
You wait around till a 50kW radio station disposes of its still functional, but "obsolete" water cooled load, drag it home, spend weeks & kilobucks "plumbing" it, poke your 50kW CB radio into it, get a real value for average power, adjust the meter zero on your Bird, & "call it good"!
No point in checking for lower power than "max" if you are a CBer. -
There are a lot of videos of the CB and ham group talking about the old Bird Watt meters being the gold standard. I knew UNI-T has a fan base but it's nothing compared with Bird.
Why? It was this way more than 20 years ago, before I ever heard of Uni-T. Was it some prodigy marketing bub that got this recognition?
I almost bought a bird meter because of the street lip service I heard. Why? -
Can the Bird read down to 1dBm? Then how do you cal that 50kW CB radio slug?
You don't. You are a True Believer in Bird!
You wait around till a 50kW radio station disposes of its still functional, but "obsolete" water cooled load, drag it home, spend weeks & kilobucks "plumbing" it, poke your 50kW CB radio into it, get a real value for average power, adjust the meter zero on your Bird, & "call it good"!
No point in checking for lower power than "max" if you are a CBer.
The irony of all of this is when you spend all that cash on a bunch of PA modules, snot to hold them together and a fat load, there isn’t enough money left to buy decent feed line and antennas. So you have to put 50kw down the poop chute to boil off the wet coax and the -60dB antenna gain with the bucket sized loading coil on some MFJ turd which has been retrimmed for 11m. ERP is probably about 10W and all you have to talk to with it is other morons
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Why ask why? Rather just enjoy the entertainment it provides. It makes sense that "Birds" becomes a unit of measure. To be the perfect gold standard that some present it as, you can't say Watts. That would suggest it reads in perfect Watts which of course, it doesn't. Bird units are relative to each meter making them unique. Hot ones (ones that read a percent higher) are coveted.There are a lot of videos of the CB and ham group talking about the old Bird Watt meters being the gold standard. I knew UNI-T has a fan base but it's nothing compared with Bird.
Why? It was this way more than 20 years ago, before I ever heard of Uni-T. Was it some prodigy marketing bub that got this recognition?
I almost bought a bird meter because of the street lip service I heard. Why?
If you really want answers, a few people have attempted to cover it this thread. -
The irony of all of this is when you spend all that cash on a bunch of PA modules, snot to hold them together and a fat load, there isn’t enough money left to buy decent feed line and antennas. So you have to put 50kw down the poop chute to boil off the wet coax and the -60dB antenna gain with the bucket sized loading coil on some MFJ turd which has been retrimmed for 11m. ERP is probably about 10W and all you have to talk to with it is other morons
Guessing most of the people buying his large PAs are truckers so antennas would be limited. I doubt cash would be the problem, well, now it may be. -
I’d hate to be inside part of the circuit with a 50kW amp dumping into it
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There was a guy on the band who went by forty-forty mobile. If any of you were listening to the band back at the end of the 1990s, you probably heard him. We chatted a bit and I met him at a Denny's to check out his rig. He was a couple blocks away when he keyed up, my SWR warning light would come on...
He passed away several years later of cancer, maybe caused by high power RF.
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Localised heating does increase chance of cancer
That’s pretty funny about the SWR warning though.
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I'll just comment on another aspect of this post (the bolded part) I was thinking about last night -
So, you compare the price of a brand new Bird & element to a used ebay auctioned power meter. Wouldn’t it be fairer to price it against a new Keysight power meter and sensor?
You know the basic Model 43 Bird power meter design is from the 1950's don't you?
History of Bird power meter -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_Technologies
The Model 43 is pretty much unchanged in 70 years. But technology has moved on. And on. Boy has it moved on.
You want a recommendation to replace, basically, a gray metal box with an analog meter that was invented in the 1950's, with the most modern power meters available to labs/corporations? Of course the new Keysight equipment is going to be very expensive and have capabilities/accuracy light-years beyond a Bird 43. Now you're getting a bit ridiculous. Besides, as has been discussed on this forum, Keysight does not want to sell new test equipment (or even used from their Ebay store) to hobbyists. Besides, what CBer or ham would spend $5k to $10k on a power meter? I can barely get them to buy me breakfast at McDonalds after I spend an hour troubleshooting their radio and fix a broken wire. Let's not allow ourselves such delusions.
Do you realize that the hp 437B power meter line was produced in the 1990s? That's going on 30 years ago. At least I'm using something older so someone using a Bird might consider it (since they seem to prefer older designs). Heck, I can go even older if you want. I can recommend an hp 436A, which has digital readouts and uses the same power sensor. How far back do you want me to go before I reach the Jurassic era of the Bird meter? I'm surprised the Bird 43 fans didn't lobby the producers of Star Trek to have Engineer Scotty use one somewhere on the Enterprise, just to show that they will never be outdated.
As I already stated (and you didn't comment), if you like metal-boxed analog meter movements, the Coaxial Dynamics meters do exactly the same thing as a Bird Model 43. They can use the same elements, have a bigger meter, same accuracy, and cost less. Dinosaur vs. dinosaur. Yea dinosaurs - you remember they went extinct ... (except they think maybe birds are relatives of dinosaurs. Yikes there's that word again - BIRD! But that's some other thread). Paint the Coaxial Dynamics box gray, get a label maker and print "BIRD Thruline Wattmeter" and stick it on top. No one will know the difference because it works exactly the same way and you can buy youself a pet parakeet with the savings.
So no, I'm not going to recommend something just as ancient as a Bird Model 43 design when someone could get a lot better equipment for less money. No, you cannot be a Gorilla while using the hp meters, it takes a little while to learn it. Wait ... is learning the real problem here? There's some old acronym - what was it - oh yea RTFM.
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Really big PAs are base station and frequently have three phase supply.
Truckers can have several hundreds of watts, anything much more than that is frowned upon by fellow truckers because, as metrologist pointed out, the high power can induce quite high power in the receiving radio;s finals. It can blow the FINALS in the receiving radio at close range, like two trucks next to one another. I have seen it happen. Someone who has a rig like this is likely to be at least yelled at by his peers.
Then there are the guys with pick up trucks with multi KW units and six alternators on the engine.....just waiting for the next "shoot out"
Now after all I have said, the Bird meters are really good products for what they are. They are reliable and accurate enough for practical communication RF. They stay inside their intended calibration envelope well. Bird makes all sorts of products that are not the typical CB power meter.
I do think the used ones are too highly priced, but what the heck? If someone buys them, I guess that is what they are worth.
To joeqsmith: Have you not heard of the "Bird Watt"
it is the gold standard of CB power output (I am not kidding here).
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There's a video of one of the high power radios resetting the display at the gas pumps.
Maybe Xrunner will have a contest. Provide a couple of references with some unknown power levels. Two freq, two levels. Any modulation goes. Send them around and have people try and measure them. The twist, they have to make their own Watt meters from scratch. Closest wins. Get that loctite out!!
Saw a few home made meters on eBay. I'm sure the people who made them are long gone.Quote. is learning the real problem here?
Never underestimate the KISS factor. Analog meters are simple. Then again, I do get a lot of comments from hams about their NanoAntennaAnalyzers. So a few of them are trying to move beyond their Birds.... -
Quote
. is learning the real problem here?
Never underestimate the KISS factor. Analog meters are simple. Then again, I do get a lot of comments from hams about their NanoAntennaAnalyzers. So a few of them are trying to move beyond their Birds....
Of course I have several and some of the local hams did get them during the "craze" when they first appeared. Haven't been on the ham bands in 6 months but I rarely heard anyone speak of using the nanoVNAs for a long time. They know the thing can give a nice sweep of your antenna SWR, but using the other functions such as testing an attenuator or looking at the Smith chart and understanding what it represented - I never heard any of them do it. I really don't think they understood at a basic level what the nanoVNA really was. Basically they think it's a super-cool antenna analyzer.
One older ham that was a friend of mine was given one to use after months of prodding "Hey you gotta check this out!". However he eventually admitted he didn't understand it and didn't want it any more. Said it was too tiny, which I can understand. Yea it can be used from a PC, but that is not up his alley either.
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I’d hate to be inside part of the circuit with a 50kW amp dumping into it
Meh! I used to wander around a paddock in front of a "Curtain Array" fed with 50kW from a HF broadcast Transmitter, with another one nearby on another HF frequency, & a little further away, a hulking great Dual Tuned Vertical mast, fed with 55kW on 720 KHz, & 10kW on 810kHz.
At MF/HF, we are a very small fraction of a wavelength, so hardly get warm.
Apart from that, I am of the firm belief that most of the CB stuff is "fantasy Watts". -
I'll just comment on another aspect of this post (the bolded part) I was thinking about last night -
So, you compare the price of a brand new Bird & element to a used ebay auctioned power meter. Wouldn’t it be fairer to price it against a new Keysight power meter and sensor?
You know the basic Model 43 Bird power meter design is from the 1950's don't you?
History of Bird power meter -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_Technologies
The Model 43 is pretty much unchanged in 70 years. But technology has moved on. And on. Boy has it moved on.
You want a recommendation to replace, basically, a gray metal box with an analog meter that was invented in the 1950's, with the most modern power meters available to labs/corporations? Of course the new Keysight equipment is going to be very expensive and have capabilities/accuracy light-years beyond a Bird 43. Now you're getting a bit ridiculous. Besides, as has been discussed on this forum, Keysight does not want to sell new test equipment (or even used from their Ebay store) to hobbyists. Besides, what CBer or ham would spend $5k to $10k on a power meter? I can barely get them to buy me breakfast at McDonalds after I spend an hour troubleshooting their radio and fix a broken wire. Let's not allow ourselves such delusions.
Do you realize that the hp 437B power meter line was produced in the 1990s? That's going on 30 years ago. At least I'm using something older so someone using a Bird might consider it (since they seem to prefer older designs). Heck, I can go even older if you want. I can recommend an hp 436A, which has digital readouts and uses the same power sensor. How far back do you want me to go before I reach the Jurassic era of the Bird meter? I'm surprised the Bird 43 fans didn't lobby the producers of Star Trek to have Engineer Scotty use one somewhere on the Enterprise, just to show that they will never be outdated.
As I already stated (and you didn't comment), if you like metal-boxed analog meter movements, the Coaxial Dynamics meters do exactly the same thing as a Bird Model 43. They can use the same elements, have a bigger meter, same accuracy, and cost less. Dinosaur vs. dinosaur. Yea dinosaurs - you remember they went extinct ... (except they think maybe birds are relatives of dinosaurs. Yikes there's that word again - BIRD! But that's some other thread). Paint the Coaxial Dynamics box gray, get a label maker and print "BIRD Thruline Wattmeter" and stick it on top. No one will know the difference because it works exactly the same way and you can buy youself a pet parakeet with the savings.
So no, I'm not going to recommend something just as ancient as a Bird Model 43 design when someone could get a lot better equipment for less money. No, you cannot be a Gorilla while using the hp meters, it takes a little while to learn it. Wait ... is learning the real problem here? There's some old acronym - what was it - oh yea RTFM.
The earliest Coaxial Dynamics power meters were pretty much a clone of the Bird, cast case & all, & with the same little meter.
Some of those Birds floating around are "old as the hills", & since then, the Bird company has moved on, with large meter movements, & indeed, digital readouts, although they still seem to make the "legacy" models.
Looking back, a lot of Birds were permanently in circuit, so a Tech could grab a quick check of "forward & reverse power", so they must have been inexpensive enough for such use at the time, (which also accounts for the number of such devices still around).
With the much more sophisticated HP & other power meters costing as much as a pretty good car, the latter devices were normally workshop based, either transported to the site when needed, or the equipment to be tested brought to them.
Hell, when I started out on MF & HF stuff, we had 600
, or sometimes 200 feeders, so didn't use Birds or whatever------we read RF line current with thermocouple ammeters, as a normal thing, or as I referred to before, for an accurate power check, we could use a "water cooled load"!
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I have been meaning to get a nanoVNA for some time, but there are so many stories going around about "crappy clones", that it is hard to get a handle on which ones are any good.Quote. is learning the real problem here?
Never underestimate the KISS factor. Analog meters are simple. Then again, I do get a lot of comments from hams about their NanoAntennaAnalyzers. So a few of them are trying to move beyond their Birds....
Of course I have several and some of the local hams did get them during the "craze" when they first appeared. Haven't been on the ham bands in 6 months but I rarely heard anyone speak of using the nanoVNAs for a long time. They know the thing can give a nice sweep of your antenna SWR, but using the other functions such as testing an attenuator or looking at the Smith chart and understanding what it represented - I never heard any of them do it. I really don't think they understood at a basic level what the nanoVNA really was. Basically they think it's a super-cool antenna analyzer.
One older ham that was a friend of mine was given one to use after months of prodding "Hey you gotta check this out!". However he eventually admitted he didn't understand it and didn't want it any more. Said it was too tiny, which I can understand. Yea it can be used from a PC, but that is not up his alley either.
Smith Charts?--Yeah, interesting enough, but as far as tuning antennas, if the SWR looks OK, & the antenna takes power, most people will call it good.
After all, it is only in, comparatively speaking, recent years that VNAs were cheap enough for general use in industry---we used Scalar Network Analysers. (Anybody remember the R&S Polyskop SWOB?)
It certainly wouldn't be my instrument of choice for testing attenuators, which can be done perfectly satisfactorily with a signal generator, a 50 termination & an Oscilloscope, or HP410C.(Or, of course, with a Polyskop, if you have one in the garage, "monstering" your car for elbow room!)
Surely "tiny" is the nanoVNA's main strength, in that you can take the thing to an antenna feedpoint, & test it without having to allow for a "longish" feeder.
Dragging a laptop around with you reduces that convenience------yes, I know you can correct for that & measure from inside the "shack", but it is messy, when an MFJ259 lets you do the basic stuff, at the feedpoint in the same way, & is easier to read.
I would have expected the price of secondhand MFJ259s to crash with the advent of nanoVNAs, but that hasn't been the case, so that is definitely an argument in favour of the latter, for those of us without a lot of money to play with.
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Dragging a laptop around with you reduces that convenience------yes, I know you can correct for that & measure from inside the "shack", but it is messy, when an MFJ259 lets you do the basic stuff, at the feedpoint in the same way, & is easier to read.
I would have expected the price of secondhand MFJ259s to crash with the advent of nanoVNAs, but that hasn't been the case, so that is definitely an argument in favour of the latter, for those of us without a lot of money to play with.
I also have a NanoVNA-H I got from a trade with another ham a year ago. I had a Comet CAA-500 antenna analyzer (they now make a nicer one the CAA-500 Mark II) in the closet not being used. The Comet analyzer is a very nice Japanese-made unit with analog meters and it works well but it can't do what the VNA can and show a graphical sweep of your return loss or SWR.
I think he had an MFJ 259 that went bad (we call them Mighty Fine Junk here). However, the local ham bought himself the NanoVNA-H and decided he couldn't get into it and wanted to go back to a old-school type antenna analyzer. One day he asked me what I wanted for the Comet and I said well just trade me the NanoVNA-H and I'm good. I think the Comet was worth more but I wanted to help him out. So I got a nicer NanoVNA with a bigger screen out of that deal.
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The older school antenna analysers, particularly of the MFJ variety are somewhat iffy I find. If you buy them new they are ridiculously expensive for what they are. If you buy them second hand they are usually munted due to leaked batteries or user error. I was bouncing them on eBay for a bit for silly amounts of profit. The RigExpert ones are the most viable old style units.
The NanoVNA is however completely remarkable. If you can get a genuine one. Even our official reseller here is a shyster and sells fake ones
. I’ve used one for all sorts of tasks from filter design, amplifier characterisation, tuning antennas and loads, measuring low L and C value parts, measuring self resonant frequency of inductors, testing attenuators. So so useful.
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This thread is getting a lot of reads, probably because of the word "Bird" good idea for a thread Joe.
Smith Charts?--Yeah, interesting enough, but as far as tuning antennas, if the SWR looks OK, & the antenna takes power, most people will call it good.
After all, it is only in, comparatively speaking, recent years that VNAs were cheap enough for general use in industry---we used Scalar Network Analysers. (Anybody remember the R&S Polyskop SWOB?)
Most hams wouldn't use the Smith chart true, but I would think they would or should be interested in understanding what the circles going around and around mean. I did explain it to one guy so I do what I can.Quote
It certainly wouldn't be my instrument of choice for testing attenuators, which can be done perfectly satisfactorily with a signal generator, a 50 termination & an Oscilloscope, or HP410C.(Or, of course, with a Polyskop, if you have one in the garage, "monstering" your car for elbow room!)
Well of course that presumes a person has a signal generator, scope, terminations, perhaps a SpecAn with tracking generator ...
I understand most of the hams here get into the hobby to talk to other people, most of the time about subjects having nothing to do with electronics. They are carpenters, insurance salesmen, cops, etc. I get it, it's a hobby to have fun with. I just have to keep in mind the hobby isn't like it used to be when I grew up. Most of them are just appliance operators and really don't know electronics to any substantial degree. You learn the answers to the test questions and poof - you pass the test and are a ham. Even young kids get an Extra Class license now. What do they really know? I used to admire Extra Class hams back in the day - not anymore. If someone told me he/she was Extra Class, I'd have to ask them "OK but do you know anything about this hobby?" Really - I wouldn't trust them to be able to do a thing because passing the test doesn't mean much anymore. Quite the opposite, they might actually be harmful to others as the advice they give out might cause damage to equipment.Quote
I would have expected the price of secondhand MFJ259s to crash with the advent of nanoVNAs, but that hasn't been the case, so that is definitely an argument in favour of the latter, for those of us without a lot of money to play with.
That's what I thought would happen; it will, but not for a while yet. The older crowd doesn't want to change. Time passes and a younger group will take over (for better or worse). -
Thank the whole Elmer concept for the lack of forward thinking…
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Of course I have several and some of the local hams did get them during the "craze" when they first appeared. Haven't been on the ham bands in 6 months but I rarely heard anyone speak of using the nanoVNAs for a long time. They know the thing can give a nice sweep of your antenna SWR, but using the other functions such as testing an attenuator or looking at the Smith chart and understanding what it represented - I never heard any of them do it. I really don't think they understood at a basic level what the nanoVNA really was. Basically they think it's a super-cool antenna analyzer.
In general I tend to agree. I suspect a few felt a $50 VNA was as easy to use as a $50 DMM. After all, they figured out how to use their Bird meters.
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I would have expected the price of secondhand MFJ259s to crash with the advent of nanoVNAs, but that hasn't been the case, so that is definitely an argument in favour of the latter, for those of us without a lot of money to play with.
That's what I thought would happen; it will, but not for a while yet. The older crowd doesn't want to change. Time passes and a younger group will take over (for better or worse).
[/quote]
Best sell mine then -
I never considered Bird. The unit and elements are too expensive. I don't trust their 5% specifications, either. Perhaps it was 5% at factory but by the time it gets on my bench and used for few years, I doubt it can retain their 5% spec. Besides, I really don't care to be 5% accurate at 100 watts level. 10% is sufficient for me. I have two cheap Daiwa cross meters and that's enough for me. At this power level, I care more about relative level (ie. peaking or dipping)
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I'll just comment on another aspect of this post (the bolded part) I was thinking about last night -
I believe you are being ridiculous. That’s why I suggested you compare similarly used or new devices. Nobody will argue with you that there are other devices that are more effective. I suggested you compare new price of a Bird to a new digital meter, not necessarily a new 437b, but the $ difference would not support the point you are trying to make. Whether Keysight wants to support individuals or not is meaningless in this. You’re distracting from the point.So, you compare the price of a brand new Bird & element to a used ebay auctioned power meter. Wouldn’t it be fairer to price it against a new Keysight power meter and sensor?
You know the basic Model 43 Bird power meter design is from the 1950's don't you?
History of Bird power meter -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_Technologies
The Model 43 is pretty much unchanged in 70 years. But technology has moved on. And on. Boy has it moved on.
You want a recommendation to replace, basically, a gray metal box with an analog meter that was invented in the 1950's, with the most modern power meters available to labs/corporations? Of course the new Keysight equipment is going to be very expensive and have capabilities/accuracy light-years beyond a Bird 43. Now you're getting a bit ridiculous. Besides, as has been discussed on this forum, Keysight does not want to sell new test equipment (or even used from their Ebay store) to hobbyists. Besides, what CBer or ham would spend $5k to $10k on a power meter? I can barely get them to buy me breakfast at McDonalds after I spend an hour troubleshooting their radio and fix a broken wire. Let's not allow ourselves such delusions.
Do you realize that the hp 437B power meter line was produced in the 1990s? That's going on 30 years ago. At least I'm using something older so someone using a Bird might consider it (since they seem to prefer older designs). Heck, I can go even older if you want. I can recommend an hp 436A, which has digital readouts and uses the same power sensor. How far back do you want me to go before I reach the Jurassic era of the Bird meter? I'm surprised the Bird 43 fans didn't lobby the producers of Star Trek to have Engineer Scotty use one somewhere on the Enterprise, just to show that they will never be outdated.
As I already stated (and you didn't comment), if you like metal-boxed analog meter movements, the Coaxial Dynamics meters do exactly the same thing as a Bird Model 43. They can use the same elements, have a bigger meter, same accuracy, and cost less. Dinosaur vs. dinosaur. Yea dinosaurs - you remember they went extinct ... (except they think maybe birds are relatives of dinosaurs. Yikes there's that word again - BIRD! But that's some other thread). Paint the Coaxial Dynamics box gray, get a label maker and print "BIRD Thruline Wattmeter" and stick it on top. No one will know the difference because it works exactly the same way and you can buy youself a pet parakeet with the savings.
So no, I'm not going to recommend something just as ancient as a Bird Model 43 design when someone could get a lot better equipment for less money. No, you cannot be a Gorilla while using the hp meters, it takes a little while to learn it. Wait ... is learning the real problem here? There's some old acronym - what was it - oh yea RTFM.
Some brands have built a reputation and consumers pay for that. Fluke is a good example. You can almost certainly get something of similar quality and performance for less money, but you pay for the name. Same for Keysight, Rohde &Schwarz, etc.
I find most of everything else you posted personally insulting. After reading your other distraction about your ham acquaintance not offering to buy you breakfast, I can understand why.
I did not ask you to recommend the Bird, or anything else. I only disagree with your one-track assessment. Reading Coaxial Dynamics’ manual wouldn’t change anything and makes no sense- more distraction. -
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I find most of everything else you posted personally insulting. After reading your other distraction about your ham acquaintance not offering to buy you breakfast, I can understand why.
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I would imagine there are a few people who find this whole thread insulting.
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I never considered Bird. The unit and elements are too expensive. I don't trust their 5% specifications, either. Perhaps it was 5% at factory but by the time it gets on my bench and used for few years, I doubt it can retain their 5% spec. Besides, I really don't care to be 5% accurate at 100 watts level. 10% is sufficient for me. I have two cheap Daiwa cross meters and that's enough for me. At this power level, I care more about relative level (ie. peaking or dipping)
My meter's +/-10% of full scale. The max average is 500mW however the scale goes to 1999mW. 10% of 2W or, 500mW +/- 200mW. That's assuming 20-30C ambient. It's also limited to 10MHz on the low end. Possibly one of the worse meters made but I suspect the specs are honest! I've had it apart to attempt to align it and remember it being very touchy. Just a poor design. I understand most of the hams here get into the hobby to talk to other people, most of the time about subjects having nothing to do with electronics. They are carpenters, insurance salesmen, cops, etc. I get it, it's a hobby to have fun with. I just have to keep in mind the hobby isn't like it used to be when I grew up. Most of them are just appliance operators and really don't know electronics to any substantial degree. You learn the answers to the test questions and poof - you pass the test and are a ham.
I credit the hobby and members in part for my profession. I knew a few hams who were constantly working with electronics which helped fuel my interest. I watched it change over the years (of course, I changed too!). Many were more interested in having a 2 meter radio in their car to hit a local repeater to talk with their wives at home than electronics or the art of radio.
The modern cell phone would be my choice today. Fit's in your pocket, no license, further range, and 24/7 internet For the Bird meter, well, there's an app for that!