Tariffs

[tszaboo]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?
Intrinsically bad persons.

Does ICE enforce the tariffs or this is just a non sequitur off topic comment from you, shaming people, federal agents, that you never met?

Your reply certainly does not come without surprise, on the contrary.

If one needs ‘to see’ a person that beats others, knowing very well he doesn’t know a shit about, then yes, he has a bad personality as in criminal.


I don’t need to see a scumbag to verify if he is a scumbag.

I don't know if this is your weak attempt to derail this topic. Or you want to get yourself banned.
I suggest you take this one to reddit, you will find a lot of like minded indivuals there.

[Sorama]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?
Intrinsically bad persons.

Does ICE enforce the tariffs or this is just a non sequitur off topic comment from you, shaming people, federal agents, that you never met?

Your reply certainly does not come without surprise, on the contrary.

If one needs ‘to see’ a person that beats others, knowing very well he doesn’t know a shit about, then yes, he has a bad personality as in criminal.


I don’t need to see a scumbag to verify if he is a scumbag.

I don't know if this is your weak attempt to derail this topic. Or you want to get yourself banned.
I suggest you take this one to reddit, you will find a lot of like minded indivuals there.

I never wanted nor did derail a topic.
Just confirming/supporting a thought some other members made.

You are a so predictable.

[Cyclotron]

There is a class of people who actively like and participate in racist thuggery, especially in the USA. There is a class of people who are, for want of a better phrase, uniform fetishists. Under normal circumstances they are unlikely to be able to be employed by law enforcement agencies.

The speed with which the new bodies were recruited implies they couldn't have been too fussy.

ISTR reading reports to the effect that many new recruits had a, um, chequered background. No, I haven't searched for those again.

A member here PMed me with an anecdote that he had worked with a technician who was sacked for racist jokes and wearing a swastika. He found employment with ICE.

So were my statements "demonising"? To some extent yes, but they contain too much truth for comfort.

I find myself in the awkward position of appearing to defend LEOs. I have a strong libertarian streak and hence would prefer the government and its enforcement arms to constrained as much as possible.

But, I'm also very strongly against the sort of name calling that's used to demonize and dehumanize people. I have close friends that are LEOs and they know of my position on such things as civil forfeiture, stop and frisk, "I smell drugs", and the list goes on. But if I color all LEOs with things like "thugs" and worse then my arguments are easily dismissed and should be.

There are very valid concerns about background checks, training, and much more for all LEOs world-wide. These concerns should be pursued and the unions that protect bad apples should be sued into non-existence for their parts.  But really? Anecdotes and innuendo, here-say and politics are no platforms for using brush strokes that propagate hate and have been shown to incite violence.

Is speed of recruitment a problem? Has it been shown to be a problem?  When I joined the military I wasn't vetted, I signed a document and had a physical. I'm sure the background checks are far better today than in my day as it is electronic and a much wider scope, but I did have a check of my background, or so they told me. They trained me for 6 weeks and gave me access to enormous destructive power. Am I a thug?

I really get disgusted with the amount of "labeling" these days. I was taught in school that race isn't real. We are all above 99.9% exactly the same.
The US "race" structure is weird. When I asked a friend of latin American ancestry what race he put in, he said he never knew what to put in. When I told him, unless you can show your blood relatives to natives, it is near certain you'd be "White" he at first refused to believe that then had to conclude I was right.

Labels and name calling is a way to make it ok to treat people badly. I strive to avoid it but it is an easy thing to do.
Another example of this is road rage. You never know who is behind the wheel of the other car. But people rage at the car because its inanimate and hatred and violence towards and inanimate object seems ok and reasonable even.

I'm sure there's examples of LEO bad behavior and the citizens of the nation that have them employed should force long term overhauls in union's responsibilities and documented history to eliminate them.

[Cyclotron]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?
Intrinsically bad persons.

@Sorama, I'm afraid you have outed yourself as a what you've said these LEOs are if you honestly believe that statement. First, I'm certain anyone making that statement has no flipping idea what ICE is, who works there and what they do.

Immigration, Custom and Customs enforcement.  So yes, ICE is certainly within the scope of tariffs and their enforcement.

I loathe to use the popular terms, so I won't use them. Saying that anyone that commits a crime makes everyone that looks like them the same is ridiculous. So if someone that looks like you Sorama commits a crime, per your logic, I must convict you of the same. That's beyond ignorant. It's dangerous and intolerable.

[tggzzz]

 I certainly don't class all law enforcement officers (?LEO?) as pigs. They are people.

My understanding is that in the US the FBI agents are pretty decent, the state police are competent, and the local police are, um, variable. That's based on my parents experience in Pittsburgh in the 50s, and an anecdote told to me by a colleague c1990.

Charlie was a very upstanding guy, a lovely person from Colorado. While we were on a trip to CERN he told me of an experience he had had in Louisiana. He had been pulled I've by a local cop while driving. The cop asked for his driving licence and papers, and while fetching them, the cop said "now don't you go fooling' me boy". That puzzled Charlie, but later that day he realised the cop was illiterate.

Nonethless, there are too many frightening anecdote about the new ICE personnel's behaviour and attitudes. Some anecdotes are well documented, having reached the courts.

[tggzzz]

As for the libertarian wet dream of anarchy, I went through that phase in my teens. Then I read Larry Niven's short story Cloak of Anarchy, and came to my senses.

If you don't know Niven's work, he is definitely not left wing, and has written several books with Jerry Pournelle.

https://larryniven.net/?q=cloak-of-anarchy

[Sorama]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?
Intrinsically bad persons.

@Sorama, I'm afraid you have outed yourself as a what you've said these LEOs are if you honestly believe that statement. First, I'm certain anyone making that statement has no flipping idea what ICE is, who works there and what they do.

Immigration, Custom and Customs enforcement.  So yes, ICE is certainly within the scope of tariffs and their enforcement.

I loathe to use the popular terms, so I won't use them. Saying that anyone that commits a crime makes everyone that looks like them the same is ridiculous. So if someone that looks like you Sorama commits a crime, per your logic, I must convict you of the same. That's beyond ignorant. It's dangerous and intolerable.

You are reading things I did not say, not even suggested.

I wrote that when I SEE someone beating up someone else ( whether or not unrecognizable or with a police/ice jacket), I don’t need to talk to that person or know anything about him to judge he is a bad person.

That is completely different from what you wrote, namely that I would base my judgement on what someone else said.

What happened with the morality here?
The lack of morality, be it wrt ICE or  actual politics in the US or tariffs, is the ‘red cord’ in all of this. 

[Cyclotron]

As for the libertarian wet dream of anarchy, I went through that phase in my teens. Then I read Larry Niven's short story Cloak of Anarchy, and came to my senses.

If you don't know Niven's work, he is definitely not left wing, and has written several books with Jerry Pournelle.

https://larryniven.net/?q=cloak-of-anarchy

I'd expect you to be far better read than to color libertarianism as anarchism. At least the modern liberation. If we only care about history then we would have to color the left with the origins of fascism as it was born during Mussolini's Socialist origins. Anarchism as a left-wing ideology did provide views and some roots to libertarianism but the modern concept is pretty far removed and even considered right-wing now.

The epitome of the US founding fathers was one that sought out liberty.  The Federalist papers as an example of some origins of some of my views. Maybe I should call my streak Federalism but that would lead far more to misunderstand my views. Being in favor of less labels I'll apologize for my own labels and retract it.

[Cyclotron]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?

@Sorama, I'm afraid you have outed yourself as a what you've said these LEOs are if you honestly believe that statement. First, I'm certain anyone making that statement has no flipping idea what ICE is, who works there and what they do.

Immigration, Custom and Customs enforcement.  So yes, ICE is certainly within the scope of tariffs and their enforcement.

I loathe to use the popular terms, so I won't use them. Saying that anyone that commits a crime makes everyone that looks like them the same is ridiculous. So if someone that looks like you Sorama commits a crime, per your logic, I must convict you of the same. That's beyond ignorant. It's dangerous and intolerable.

You are reading things I did not say, not even suggested.

I wrote that when I SEE someone beating up someone else ( whether or not unrecognizable or with a police/ice jacket), I don’t need to talk to that person or know anything about him to judge he is a bad person.

That is completely different from what you wrote, namely that I would base my judgement on what someone else said.

What happened with the morality here?
The lack of morality, be it wrt ICE or  actual politics in the US or tariffs, is the ‘red cord’ in all of this.

What happened to morality indeed!  You wrote the text that I quoted, did you not?  Look at the top of this post and read what you wrote. The literal meaning or take away of this statement by this native english speaker that employment by ICE means the person is likely a criminal or with a very bad attitude and then you plain state "Intrinsically bad persons."  You don't get to say you never said anything like that because its right there.

If you didn't mean to say that or make those implications then correct yourself.

[tggzzz]

As for the libertarian wet dream of anarchy, I went through that phase in my teens. Then I read Larry Niven's short story Cloak of Anarchy, and came to my senses.

If you don't know Niven's work, he is definitely not left wing, and has written several books with Jerry Pournelle.

https://larryniven.net/?q=cloak-of-anarchy

I'd expect you to be far better read than to color libertarianism as anarchism.

I didn't: read again, more carefully this time.

(Hint: anarchy is a libertarian wet dream)

[Cyclotron]

As for the libertarian wet dream of anarchy, I went through that phase in my teens. Then I read Larry Niven's short story Cloak of Anarchy, and came to my senses.

If you don't know Niven's work, he is definitely not left wing, and has written several books with Jerry Pournelle.

https://larryniven.net/?q=cloak-of-anarchy

I forgot to reply directly to your query about the short story. I may have read it. I used to sub to Analog and it sounds like something that would have been in that digest of Sci-Fi works.

My memory of things doesn't work the same as how I assume the general population does. 

[Cyclotron]

As for the libertarian wet dream of anarchy, I went through that phase in my teens. Then I read Larry Niven's short story Cloak of Anarchy, and came to my senses.

If you don't know Niven's work, he is definitely not left wing, and has written several books with Jerry Pournelle.

https://larryniven.net/?q=cloak-of-anarchy

I'd expect you to be far better read than to color libertarianism as anarchism.

I didn't: read again, more carefully this time.

(Hint: anarchy is a libertarian wet dream)

Fair enough. I did interpret that differently at quick glance. Such is the fallacy of language. My apologies.
I did mark that book down to read, again if it is again. I am often in need to find things to do on long flights these days.

[Sorama]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?

@Sorama, I'm afraid you have outed yourself as a what you've said these LEOs are if you honestly believe that statement. First, I'm certain anyone making that statement has no flipping idea what ICE is, who works there and what they do.

Immigration, Custom and Customs enforcement.  So yes, ICE is certainly within the scope of tariffs and their enforcement.

I loathe to use the popular terms, so I won't use them. Saying that anyone that commits a crime makes everyone that looks like them the same is ridiculous. So if someone that looks like you Sorama commits a crime, per your logic, I must convict you of the same. That's beyond ignorant. It's dangerous and intolerable.

You are reading things I did not say, not even suggested.

I wrote that when I SEE someone beating up someone else ( whether or not unrecognizable or with a police/ice jacket), I don’t need to talk to that person or know anything about him to judge he is a bad person.

That is completely different from what you wrote, namely that I would base my judgement on what someone else said.

What happened with the morality here?
The lack of morality, be it wrt ICE or  actual politics in the US or tariffs, is the ‘red cord’ in all of this.

What happened to morality indeed!  You wrote the text that I quoted, did you not?  Look at the top of this post and read what you wrote. The literal meaning or take away of this statement by this native english speaker that employment by ICE means the person is likely a criminal or with a very bad attitude and then you plain state "Intrinsically bad persons."  You don't get to say you never said anything like that because its right there.

If you didn't mean to say that or make those implications then correct yourself.

So if you son or daughter wears a swastika and tell racist jokes, you applaud?
You support them in doing this?

Never mind, I already know the answer.

[tggzzz]

As for the libertarian wet dream of anarchy, I went through that phase in my teens. Then I read Larry Niven's short story Cloak of Anarchy, and came to my senses.

If you don't know Niven's work, he is definitely not left wing, and has written several books with Jerry Pournelle.

https://larryniven.net/?q=cloak-of-anarchy

I'd expect you to be far better read than to color libertarianism as anarchism.

I didn't: read again, more carefully this time.

(Hint: anarchy is a libertarian wet dream)

Fair enough. I did interpret that differently at quick glance. Such is the fallacy of language. My apologies.
I did mark that book down to read, again if it is again. I am often in need to find things to do on long flights these days.

It is only 7529 words long, so it can be read quickly.

(And English is a very malleable language!)

[tggzzz]

So if you son or daughter wears a swastika and tell racist jokes, you applaud?
You support them in doing this?

Never mind, I already know the answer.

She would only be expressing an opinion.
All opinions are equally valid.
There is no such thing as society.

Those have all been used to justify sociopathic behaviour

[Sorama]

So if you son or daughter wears a swastika and tell racist jokes, you applaud?
You support them in doing this?

Never mind, I already know the answer.

She would only be expressing an opinion.
All opinions are equally valid.
There is no such thing as society.

Those have all been used to justify sociopathic behaviour

Wearing a swastika is just an opinion??

[themadhippy]

Wearing a swastika is just an opinion??

perfectly acceptable if yer a buddhist

[Sorama]

Wearing a swastika is just an opinion??

perfectly acceptable if yer a buddhist

you mind explaining?

[Zero999]

Wearing a swastika is just an opinion??

perfectly acceptable if yer a buddhist

you mind explaining?

The swastika was and continues to be used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism.^{[1][5][6][7][8]} It generally takes the form of a cross,^[A] the arms of which are of equal length and perpendicular to the adjacent arms, each bent midway at a right angle.^[10][11]
The word swastika comes from Sanskrit: स्वस्तिक, romanized: svastika, meaning 'conducive to well-being'.^[1][12] In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (clockwise) ([color=var(--color-base,#202122)]卐[/color]) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ('sun'), prosperity and good luck, while the left-facing symbol (counter-clockwise) ([color=var(--color-base,#202122)]卍[/color]) is called sauvastika, symbolising night or tantric aspects of Kali.^[1] In Jain symbolism, it is the part of the Jain flag.^[13] It represents Suparshvanatha – the seventh of 24 Tirthankaras (spiritual teachers and saviours), while in Buddhist symbolism it represents the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.^[1][14][15] In the different Indo-European traditions, the swastika symbolises fire, lightning bolts, and the sun.^[16] The symbol is found in the archaeological remains of the Indus Valley civilisation^[17] and Samarra, as well as in early Byzantine and Christian artwork.^[18][19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[themadhippy]

you mind explaining?

the swastika is an ancient symbol that goes back thousands of years in asia.

[tggzzz]

So if you son or daughter wears a swastika and tell racist jokes, you applaud?
You support them in doing this?

Never mind, I already know the answer.

She would only be expressing an opinion.
All opinions are equally valid.
There is no such thing as society.

Those have all been used to justify sociopathic behaviour

Wearing a swastika is just an opinion??

I was being sarcastic, but I should have been clearer; apologies.

But themadhippy is correct to note that flags and symbols have always been co-opted for new causes -and it continues today.

[Sorama]

you mind explaining?

the swastika is an ancient symbol that goes back thousands of years in asia.

Ok, but I don’t think that guys with a swastika that beat up someone that once entered the US are good or respectful practicers ( is that a word ?) of Buddhism.

So, should we have a beer with those guys or let them date our daughters ?
That’s morality too: protect others from these animals.

[PlainName]

practicers ( is that a word ?)

Yes, but perhaps 'practioner' might be a better fit. Only a pedant would quibble, though.

[Sorama]

practicers ( is that a word ?)

Yes, but perhaps 'practioner' might be a better fit. Only a pedant would quibble, though.

Now I have to  lookup what quibble means…

[Cyclotron]

How could one work for ICE without being a criminal or a person with a very, very bad attitude ?

@Sorama, I'm afraid you have outed yourself as a what you've said these LEOs are if you honestly believe that statement. First, I'm certain anyone making that statement has no flipping idea what ICE is, who works there and what they do.

Immigration, Custom and Customs enforcement.  So yes, ICE is certainly within the scope of tariffs and their enforcement.

I loathe to use the popular terms, so I won't use them. Saying that anyone that commits a crime makes everyone that looks like them the same is ridiculous. So if someone that looks like you Sorama commits a crime, per your logic, I must convict you of the same. That's beyond ignorant. It's dangerous and intolerable.

You are reading things I did not say, not even suggested.

I wrote that when I SEE someone beating up someone else ( whether or not unrecognizable or with a police/ice jacket), I don’t need to talk to that person or know anything about him to judge he is a bad person.

That is completely different from what you wrote, namely that I would base my judgement on what someone else said.

What happened with the morality here?
The lack of morality, be it wrt ICE or  actual politics in the US or tariffs, is the ‘red cord’ in all of this.

What happened to morality indeed!  You wrote the text that I quoted, did you not?  Look at the top of this post and read what you wrote. The literal meaning or take away of this statement by this native english speaker that employment by ICE means the person is likely a criminal or with a very bad attitude and then you plain state "Intrinsically bad persons."  You don't get to say you never said anything like that because its right there.

If you didn't mean to say that or make those implications then correct yourself.

So if you son or daughter wears a swastika and tell racist jokes, you applaud?
You support them in doing this?

Never mind, I already know the answer.

See what you did right there?  You didn't address what you said/claimed about all workers at ICE but then implied I'm some how the bad guy.  Go ahead, call me a name too. Paint everyone with your brush. If you wish to participate in a conversation and make such horrible claims you need to justify it.

But no, you have no issue with the possiblity that you've insulted a large amount of innocent people and just proceed on your way. I believe you need to look up a lot of words.

But, please, there are others here that might read your statements in some other way. I can't imangine what way that would be but the plain language of the statements. I look forward to the correction or apology; both would be appropriate me thinks.