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One day, someone might ( it might be mr_smallsmt ) actually build a desktop machine that reliably works without the frustrations. The QiHe, NeoDen, Charmingtech, and other similar brands have been trying really hard, but as yet, its just not quite there. Feeder systems end up being compromised. As you say its hard, and you dont' need the machinery being the cause of your issues.
This is all very confusing.
Your advise is to buy a second hand machine that might have 1000´s of hours of use, with expensive feeders and accessories. I understand that easy of use and fast machines come at a high price.
When these machines from China get there, I don't believe they will be cheap, and support for buying a second hand machine with more than 10 years from a resseller that's not the manufacturer can be the same as buying a second hand car in a street car sale.
So from what I see, Chinese machines have problems with software and lack some features, construction is nice, but not top of the line. They are evolving somehow.
So for starting I don't see anything wrong choosing a chinese machine. If work or business grows, then getting a +50k euro machine is the way to go. If I can work with limitations of a cheap machine, I will be much more productive with a top of the line machine. -
To use a PNP machine is not as easy like operating a laser printer.
The old machines from yamaha have dos based software and are not easy to operate too.
If you need a spare part for these machines you need to spend a lot of money.
Our machines are operating reliable even the smallest VP-2500D. One customer from Neuss placed 500000 components this year building 15000 PCB using VP-2500D.
The VisionPlacer software is windows based and has a lot of features like component database to save templates for easy feeder setup.
High speed vision system reliable and easy to setup.
More than 120 machines in sold having only a few problems.
We offer customer service and spare parts so it's no risk to buy our chinese machines.
The VP2800HP-CL64 is much better than the old Yamaha machines we are able to place 0201 and fine pitch down to 0.4mm pin pitch!
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Is visionPlacer your proprietary software?
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Yes V3 is our software and V2 shared from our Chinese friends
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To use a PNP machine is not as easy like operating a laser printer.
The old machines from yamaha have dos based software and are not easy to operate too.
I would argue that the Yamaha VIOS software is one of the easiest to operate. Yeah its old, but it never crashes. Same goes with old Jukis. The newer machiens which do have Windows based processing have good software, but its more complex. On a scale of 'easyness' the old Dos code is really easyQuoteIf you need a spare part for these machines you need to spend a lot of money.
That has not been my experience at all. Theres a whole industry of people who make it their bussiness to keep these things going.QuoteOur machines are operating reliable even the smallest VP-2500D. One customer from Neuss placed 500000 components this year building 15000 PCB using VP-2500D.
Specifically with SmallSMT machiens, its very difficult to find independant reviews of them, any where on the internet. Compare that to other brands you'll find a lot of material about them. The only independant information i could find was about a person who had bought a machine from the chinese manufacturer who SmallSMT uses, through a person called 'sunny', and their expereince was poor.
>The VisionPlacer software is windows based and has a lot of features like component database to save templates for easy feeder setup.
Windows != easy or relaible. Just means its windows based. The old Yamaha software has datbases of both part templates, and also a component database. Juki has a similar set up.
We offer customer service and spare parts so it's no risk to buy our chinese machines.QuoteThe VP2800HP-CL64 is much better than the old Yamaha machines we are able to place 0201 and fine pitch down to 0.4mm pin pitch!
Yamaha has been doing this a for a long time as well, on their old machines. ( YV100X from 2002 ).. Just saying, 100 feeders and conveyor, and it will place 10,000 pph, as a REAL actual work rate. -
The YV100X is really fast.
YV100X limited on 6.5mm component height!
Accuracy +-0.1mm(Chips) +-0.08mm(QFP)
Machine size： L1,655XW1,408XH1,850mm
Machine weight：1,450kg
Really easy to move into office.
http://www.joysmt.com/Yamaha-smt-machine/1430.html
19000 to 30000usdQuoteSpecifically with SmallSMT machiens, its very difficult to find independant reviews of them, any where on the internet.
I don't pay customers for reviews! -
The YV100X is really fast.
No its not. Its not a fast machine by any strech these days. Compare it to a modern machine that is placing 60-90kpph.QuoteYV100X limited on 6.5mm component height!
The 6.5mm limit is easily overcome with a little bit of thinking about the problem. Its demonstrated in the Yamaha Training course. I regularly place Electrolyitcs that are 10mm.
Accuracy +-0.1mm(Chips) +-0.08mm(QFP)QuoteMachine size： L1,655XW1,408XH1,850mm
Machine weight：1,450kg
Really solid. Cast Steel frame. Things are bolted down really securely. You need to have a decent floor to stick it on.QuoteReally easy to move into office.
Mmm. I dont' think i want clicky clicky clicky noises in my office. Yeah, its not a desktop. But they also just work. Theres some compromises!Quotehttp://www.joysmt.com/Yamaha-smt-machine/1430.html
19000 to 30000usd
That would be the high end pricing. You can buy these machines from several places in China, in various states and ages starting at $5k USD. Yes, it takes some effort. If you dont' want to put in effort then probably pnp is not for you.QuoteSpecifically with SmallSMT machiens, its very difficult to find independant reviews of them, any where on the internet.
I don't pay customers for reviews!
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The vast majority of product reviews are not paid for.
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Heres the thign;
(1) You can get a cheap compact desktop machine. they are low cost, and you'll pay for it in hassle.
(2)You can get a better desktop machine. They start needing big desks. You pay more, and you'll pay a bit less in hassle.
(3)You can get a good 2nd hand pro machine that needs more space. ( even old ). You'll pay for it, and then you'll get some work done, without too much hassle.
(4)You can buy a new pro machine, with a support contract, and you'll pay lots and lots for it, but life should be easy once you've learned how to use it.
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Mr Packethead,
Are you moving into the game of making pick and place machines?
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Hey Michael,
How about sending one of your PNP machines to Dave's mailbox mondays? I'm pretty sure Dave would give it a fair review.
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Heres the thign;
Look at rxpilots topic and experience, it tell a completely different story:
(3)You can get a good 2nd hand pro machine that needs more space. ( even old ). You'll pay for it, and then you'll get some work done, without too much hassle.
- no service manuals you have to find everything out for yourself or pay the man $100/hr for simple maintenance
-spare parts are refirbished and cost the same as if they were new
- old OS hassle work with obsolete computers and extinct isa motherboards, big problems keeping it alive and what about the future? Goto Afrika to buy back the PCs that were shipped there decades ago?
- lots of ancient machines have no vision so solely rely on absolute part positioning or have unobtanium CyberOptics laser guided rotation electronics from the 90s.
- 0402 or smaller often not supported
- how much were these machines used, how many hours? What is the condition of the linear guides and bearings which would cost you a fortune to replace if even possible without rebuilding the machine.
There are P&P machines offered for €500 and still no-one picks them up so they are scrapped for iron kg price, why would that be? Simple they weigh a ton and take up four times the space of a modern machine and there is no service dept in the vicinity to help you if the machine breaks down mid flight and you have to tell your customer you have a unknown delay.
We can go on and on about this but if you need large amounts of boards in fixed time you want a decent new machine, better two to continue if one breaks down. You can then opt for the ultimate machines and charge your customer the write off which many pro companies do, but if you are living and working on a low margin and have a small company you will start with p&p machines around €20k.
Now with cheap vision these machines can earn their market share, don't compare them to their €200k competitors those are for 24/7 production lines, if you need that, you can afford that incl. The 24/7 standby fly-in repair and maintenance contract from the vendor.
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Hey Michael,
That's really expensive for us because of big and heavy machines to ship.
How about sending one of your PNP machines to Dave's mailbox mondays? I'm pretty sure Dave would give it a fair review.
But maybe we invite Dave to Germany is better.
By the way did you wrote a review about your Yamaha machine?
I never saw a PNP machine working video you did. I would be interested to see the fast processing.
But thank you for your suggestions.
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That's really expensive for us because of big and heavy machines to ship.
But maybe we invite Dave to Germany is better.Quote
how big, shipping down to OZ from China is not that expensive. its only about 20 days ex Shanghai to melbourne LCL. Daves channels got increadible reach and it could catapult your business. ( then you could get the funds to finish the new machine ! )
Sorry its a crappy video, and was taken quite some time ago, when i was learning how to run this. I think thats running at 60%. Every part is being imaged, as it flys over that red light source. -
Hey Michael,
I don't think that would be very useful - Dave does not have experience running an P&P, the time to fully evaluate it, or a need to use one. The only way to evaluate these things is by using them for real work.
How about sending one of your PNP machines to Dave's mailbox mondays? I'm pretty sure Dave would give it a fair review.
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Hey Michael,
I don't think that would be very useful - Dave does not have experience running an P&P, the time to fully evaluate it, or a need to use one. The only way to evaluate these things is by using them for real work.
How about sending one of your PNP machines to Dave's mailbox mondays? I'm pretty sure Dave would give it a fair review.
Lol. thats never stopped Dave evaluating anything before...
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Really fast machine it has a lot of heads.
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Really fast machine it has a lot of heads.
No it has one... with multiple nozzles, tho' they may share a theta.
By contrast the https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/smt/mounter/ysm40r/ has 4 heads and look at it go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bb2vXg5Ty8! -
It only seems to place the jellybean parts, not the large ic and magnetics shown at the end
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One day, someone might ( it might be mr_smallsmt ) actually build a desktop machine that reliably works without the frustrations. The QiHe, NeoDen, Charmingtech, and other similar brands have been trying really hard, but as yet, its just not quite there. Feeder systems end up being compromised. As you say its hard, and you dont' need the machinery being the cause of your issues.
Well, I have been running a Philips CSM84, which probably cost $100,000 in 1995 or so. it is built like a TANK! Some 750 Kg worth of steel and such. 3 nozzles on one head, you can put different size nozzles in it. No vision (although it was available on that model) but it does have a "beam sensor" which is basically a one-pixel camera mostly for fiducial pickup.
I do have a lot of issues with feeders. It is not the fault of the feeders, it is the fault of crummy component tapes! Some tapes have a 5:1 variation in cover tape pull strength over a foot of tape, repeating. I'm guessing this has something to do with the way the cover tape is glued on. Sometimes that glue is so strong it rips the paper tape apart to get the cover tape off. This is with the paper tapes.
Embossed plastic tapes seem to be better, but I have had some where the glue goes bad and the parts just start falling out all over the machine. These are probably tapes I have had laying around for years, however.
Other than that, the machine is quite rock solid. It is now about 23 years old, so I have had to replace a few of the plastic hoses in it.
The rotation motor had copper dust packed into the commutator, I had to clear that out. And, periodically, I have to clean the venturi vacuum generators. But, really, it has taken VERY little maintenance over the 11 years I've had it. I'm still using the original nozzles from when I got it. (I made one large nozzle for FPGAs when I first got it.)
As for the software, I've never had it do anything crazy. You fire it up, load the placement files and it just runs.
So, I'm pretty much in the used machine camp. Of course, if the main computer in it breaks, it could be expensive to replace, it is NOT an actual PC, although generally equivalent in function.
Jon -
Really fast machine it has a lot of heads.
No it has one... with multiple nozzles, tho' they may share a theta.
By contrast the https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/smt/mounter/ysm40r/ has 4 heads and look at it go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bb2vXg5Ty8!
Yes, just one head, 8 nozzles, and they do share common rotation. In comparison to the new machines, its slow :-) but it was'tn $400,000 I'd be very happy to have a business case to own one of those. right now, i dont. But I'll keep working on it. I saw some of those in action in a factory in Malaysia, where they were making parts for a well known TV brand. Was absolutely beautifyl to watch. They had four of them inline, and were only carrying about 20 parts on each machine. They were after crazy levels of throughputs. Millions of parts per hour placed, across the factory floor. Meantime back in my fab, we get excited if we get higher than >8000/hour! ( thats across thte two machines )..
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It only seems to place the jellybean parts, not the large ic and magnetics shown at the end
On that project I think we hand placed the ethernet magnetics. But the IC's where machine placed. If its a short run and we don't have the parts as a 'stock' part on the machines, and we only have a small number to do, its sometimes faster just to place them by hand than set them up for machine placement. However they are now a part that I routinely place, from reel. I have to say i had some problems with them, the feeders i used to have were old crusty FV feeders that were well worn out and gave me a lot of trouble. Replacing them with new CL feeders ( clones albeit ) made a big difference.
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Heres the thign;
Look at rxpilots topic and experience, it tell a completely different story:
(3)You can get a good 2nd hand pro machine that needs more space. ( even old ). You'll pay for it, and then you'll get some work done, without too much hassle.
My experiences and choices are a mixed bag of success and failure. Like everyone else, I had effectively 4 major choices.
1. Buy a new, low-cost desktop unit with fairly known limitations. Struggling will large numbers of unique parts, small parts, fine pitch parts, etc.
2. Buy a second-hand past-its-prime used system from a dealer as a complete and supported package - there are many to choose from. These generally have documentation, training, support, and arrive in a ready to run condition - but the cost is 5x-10x the entry-level desktop (at least)
3. Buy a second-hand machine from a random clearance company on eBay for very little money and you are on your own. This is what I did, knowing it would be a project, but unknown how big the project would be.
4. Buy a brand new machine from a commercial manufacturer where you can really even get an email returned if you don't have $150k and most of them will clear $200k with feeders.
So, my machine started as a $5k purchase on eBay. It needed many months of repairs, learning, calibration along with perhaps another $4k in pieces and parts.
I cannot say how much time I spent directly dealing with machine issues and how much time was dedicated generically to the PCB assembly process. I was learning everything all at once. I have spent just over $11k now and have about 300 feeders and a machine that can hold a TON of parts and place big, small, and fine pitch all day. There are really no part restrictions.
It took a LOT of my time, but if I had to estimate less than half of that was dedicated to my machine - it was spent just learning the basics of SMT assembly. That part of the learning curve will exist regardless of what hardware you have.
It was a good way to have a big capability with only a small budget, but it ate up some nights, weekends, and holidays in the process.
If my machine died tomorrow....I would at least look at machines like SMALL SMT if they can reliably place 0402 passives. But I would need 3 of them to get the mix needed. -
My experiences and choices are a mixed bag of success and failure. Like everyone else, I had effectively 4 major choices.
Like me. And i'm sure that it took some effortQuote1. Buy a new, low-cost desktop unit with fairly known limitations. Struggling will large numbers of unique parts, small parts, fine pitch parts, etc.
I'm thinking there might be some 1a and 1b options.. SmallSMT's high end machiens probaby are a 1b option, being a better desktop than most.
2. Buy a second-hand past-its-prime used system from a dealer as a complete and supported package - there are many to choose from. These generally have documentation, training, support, and arrive in a ready to run condition - but the cost is 5x-10x the entry-level desktop (at least)
3. Buy a second-hand machine from a random clearance company on eBay for very little money and you are on your own. This is what I did, knowing it would be a project, but unknown how big the project would be.
4. Buy a brand new machine from a commercial manufacturer where you can really even get an email returned if you don't have $150k and most of them will clear $200k with feeders.
a 3b option was i bought it at auction. I did know it worked when it was last turned on, as some of the staff were on this very forum! I admit this was a lucky purchase.
a 3c option is to find a good 'big market' refurb shop, ( like ksunsmt ) in China or India. There are so many machines there. You'll probalby want to take a trip over there to go and sus it out. And this is not an ideal option if you have no expereince in SMT. You just wont' know what your looking for. However you migth be able to find someone to help you.QuoteSo, my machine started as a $5k purchase on eBay. It needed many months of repairs, learning, calibration along with perhaps another $4k in pieces and parts.
Yeah, i have a similar story. Today there are 127 parts on the machines, and i have around 250 feeders in total. I had some experience with PNP previously. I'm placing parts down to 402 and .4mm pitch. I've got a great supplier for the misc parts that you need.. ( nozzles, belts, shafts, grease, sensors, acutators and solenoids.. ).. I know where i can get replacment parts. All that being said, these won't last forever, and I am working on a plan for the future. Its catapulted me way forward. Having two machines is a bit reassuring. If one did die, i probably could make most of my products with just one, while i got the 2nd up and running again. It would be painful and a LOT of work.
I cannot say how much time I spent directly dealing with machine issues and how much time was dedicated generically to the PCB assembly process. I was learning everything all at once. I have spent just over $11k now and have about 300 feeders and a machine that can hold a TON of parts and place big, small, and fine pitch all day. There are really no part restrictions.QuoteIt took a LOT of my time, but if I had to estimate less than half of that was dedicated to my machine - it was spent just learning the basics of SMT assembly. That part of the learning curve will exist regardless of what hardware you have.
My big ticket item on time was developing our parts system. Thats been key to being about to be super organised, and being able to swap over jobs with just a few feeder changes.QuoteIt was a good way to have a big capability with only a small budget, but it ate up some nights, weekends, and holidays in the process.
Sometimes i need to run 2000 - 5000 units, they woudl be panelised 10 up or so, and this would just take way too long on a desktop machine. I did'tn start out needing to do that, but its grown up that way.
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If my machine died tomorrow....I would at least look at machines like SMALL SMT if they can reliably place 0402 passives. But I would need 3 of them to get the mix needed.
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If my machines died tommorrow, and i coud'nt get them back up and running, i'd be on a plane to Dongguang to go and find a couple more. :-)
This is an interesting topic, but not OT for the post, we shoudl continue it welsewhere.
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I fopund a short German review for a VP-2800HP.
The customer bought machine in summer.
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/456193#new -
I fopund a short German review for a VP-2800HP.
The customer bought machine in summer.
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/456193#new
To me, that seems like a few sentences. Not really a review.
How much does it cost to ship to USA, Los Angeles?